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ChrisRedfield47
Guest
It was nice reading
- Status
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daffyjoe
Guest
Thomas,As you had stated in the later message, We Syrian Christians believe in true god,ie , Yesu (Jesus).We don’t excommunicate anybody depending on their genetics. Tradition / genetics doesn’t make anybody superior but their attitude is. That is the reason why until recent years we Syrian christians has not commented to your superiority claims of endogamy but just laughed of your claims. but recently, intentionally the provocation started from your side, though the claim, it is totally lie
List of lies I opposed with facts:-
- Archdiocese of Kottayam is only for Jewish Christians :-
Fact:-
1: The creation of Archdiocese of Kottayam was based on the cheppedu (copper plate) which was a fabricated one. Everybody local there was admitted to the respective churches in the locality without any checking.
2: Southists don’t have a unified version of story from where they came and through which port. Some say “We came from Yemen, We came from Levant, even some non-sense ones say We came from GOA?!!”. Atlease you may quote a unified place of origin, landing and time with atleast some fake documents like the copper plate
- We are original Jewish Christians :-
- We came for Missionary purposes :-
There was numerous trade and contact with middle east especially The Levant during ancient times. But the missionaries joined with the local community doing the mission. According to statements by some well known southist speakers that we didn’t mingled with local population. Then how can we believe that you came for missionary purposes. Atleast say the name of a man you had converted and joined with you, not necessarily a local native but as you insist, a Middle East Jew?
Everybody can understand the reason through which your DNA results are not publically available yet although the project ran for 10 years . May I handover one copy to you? I possess one copy unfortunately.
My question is not for the answers above. I said, ”Don’t bluff the foreign readers in the name of Saint Thomas Christians since you peoples claims that you don’t belong to our community ”.Will you change the title to “History of Knanaya/Southist”? since you highlight Knai Thomman and party unnecessary since saint Thomas Christians has no credibility to him.
No boss, It is on topic because I guess your blood is full of alcohol to boil without a valid reason. If it is with a valid reason, will you please share with us? The reason may be that Fr.Mutholath may had realised that you are out of your claims and everybody will eventually came to know about that.
No but it just sounds like one from “Puthenpana” created during 1900s.
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daffyjoe
Guest
Please re read the above 2 paragraphs. I challenge you to wear a chatta and an ash bag at the sametime. Oh fellow forum mates, we are unfortunately going to hear another story of a village been burned or another story of Knai thomman married to a native subcaste women and their sons and daughters didnot got any proposal from other local people there so they married themself and isolated themself from 10000 BC and lived till now tieing an ashbag to their sarees till now
Had you heard about the genetic study being conducted by Syrian catholics in Thrissur? We also published/updating it day by day with numerous findings. I dare you to conduct and publish the results like we do.
Babu mariyam is being / were sung during principle ceremonies like Mamodeesa, marriage before church renovation during 1990s in SMC thrissur and still now sung during occasions in Chaldean Syrian Church, here at Thrissur.
Answer is clear dude, you give unnecessary boosting of Knai thomman in the topic claiming that he is an important person to Syrian Christians. Actually there was no man named like that in the church history of Syrian Christians but only fabricated stories by your dioceses and you fellows don’t consider yourself Syrian Christians then what is the right to you to post in the name of Syro Malabar Christians? We have our own customs and you copied some customs from us and boosts as yours? That is the meaning of hacking the history of Syrian Christians. I guess reading my answers your Dravidian DNAs covered in Arabic moulds came to boil again?
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crazzeto
Guest
Wonderful post, it is heart breaking the divisions caused by human greed.
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chaldobyzantine
Guest
Barru Mariyam is not sung in the Chaldean church. It seems exclusive to Knanaya Christians.
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daffyjoe
Guest
dear chaldobyzantine,
we are talking about this church
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Syrian_Church
not this church
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Catholic_Church
regards
Jo
we are talking about this church
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Syrian_Church
not this church
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Catholic_Church
regards
Jo
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Thomas48
Guest
First off I would just like to say, Daffy what builds this much hate in you towards my community? And I mean just you, not your communities hate towards my community because you are the first and only St.Thomas Christian that I’ve met who has shown this much strife toward Knananites.I feel this issue between Knananites and other St.Thomas Christians was an issue of the past and the communities are at peace now.
List of lies I opposed with facts:-
- Archdiocese of Kottayam is only for Jewish Christians :-
Fact:-
1: The creation of Archdiocese of Kottayam was based on the cheppedu (copper plate) which was a fabricated one. Everybody local there was admitted to the respective churches in the locality without any checking.
2: Southists don’t have a unified version of story from where they came and through which port. Some say “We came from Yemen, We came from Levant, even some non-sense ones say We came from GOA?!!”. Atlease you may quote a unified place of origin, landing and time with atleast some fake documents like the copper plate
If these are facts please show me your citations, you have given me none so far. I can not deem these as facts based on the common word of one as radical as yourself.
Supremacy? Please find me the quote and give me the link to website in which my community has said “we are better than the rest of you Christians”. My community exclaims our history and it seems the other St.Thomas Christians (by that I mean you and you friends at Nasrani.net) assume we are claiming some sort of supremacy.
Like I said until these are made viewable to the public there is no point of bringing up the factor of Knanaya DNA into these debate. Also please take a look at these pictures, these are just two of the many Knanaya families that carry these traits of ginger hair and very light skin. Look at the children in the picture to the right and the man in the picture to the left.Everybody can understand the reason through which your DNA results are not publically available yet although the project ran for 10 years . May I handover one copy to you? I possess one copy unfortunately.
View attachment 16232 View attachment 16233
It seems even though you may not agree with Knanaya History your own Major Archbishop does , please watch Mar George Alencherry in this video claiming Knanaya History.
Watch from 40:42 of this video
youtube.com/watch?v=aRVe_7k69WU
You Catholics of Thissur may sing “Babu Mariyam” but us Knananites have been singing Baru Mariyam for centuries. This is the first I am hearing of any other St.Thomas Christians besides Knananites reciting Baru Mariyam.
Also Baru Mariyam is not the Syriac song I had in question. My question to you was if other Syro Malabar Christians sing this song starting at 1:30 of this video.
Please watch from 1:30.
youtube.com/watch?v=EhduF41CMLM
What customs of the the Syrian Christians did we "hack’? We may follow the same East/West Syrian Rites of worship but nothing more. Our traditions when it comes to marriage/funerals/etc are completely different.
Also if our marriage traditions are that of the Gounders please find me the minute and second and compare it to a Knanaya Wedding video. If you cannot please do not bring up these claims.
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Thomas48
Guest
Thank you for reading.
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Thomas48
Guest
Here is a cited article from a college professor and many other scholars.
“Similarities in the migration pattern of Knanites and Jews”
"Prof. P.M. Jussay, in his 1978 paper, found the wedding songs of Cochin Jews and
Knanites to be mostly identical with only minimum differences in the versesHe found that many words used in
these songs are of Aramaic, Yemenite, and Spanish origin. After careful study of
these words he states, “the words found in the songs of these communities,
which, as far as I know, do not occur in any of the songs of other communities,
whether Christian or pagan”.
Dr. J.B. Segal points out that the overwhelming similarities are not limited
just to the songs. He writes, "Some practices of the Kanayas are regarded as
Jewish origin: for instance, the wearing of a veil by Kanaya brides and the
Kanaya burial with the head in the direction of Jerusalem . More significant are
the Easter customs of the sect. Like the Jews at Passover, they eat unleavened
bread and partake as an evening meal. They also recount the stories of Creation
and Exodus from Egypt " (Segal 7). Dr. Weil also compares Knanite Easter
customs to Jewish customs. She writes, “The celebration of Easter appears to be
the test case. On this day, Knanites partake of unleavened bread reminiscent of
the Jewish matzot and drink wine prepared from coconut milk and plums which is
of a faint red colour like the wine drunk by Jews on the Passover sader night.
Before the festive Easter meal, Biblical songs are sung about Creation and
Exodus from Egypt, this later story being related on the Jewish sader night-in
addition to stories from the New Testament and Last Supper” (Weil 184).
Another similarity Dr. Segal points out is the practice of endogamy in these two
communities. Jews who came from pure middle-eastern origin are called
Paradesi/White Jews or “Myukhasim”. Those came from converts, manumitted slaves
and mixed marriages are called Black Jews or “Meshurchrarim”. Paradesis
(Myukhasim) never married the locals (Meshurchrarim). Segal quotes Ezekiel
Rahabi, a Cochin White Jew who states, “We are called White Jews, who are people
who came from the Holy Land , and the Jews whom they call Black were created in
Malabar from proselytization and manumission, but their laws, regulations, and
prayer are all like ours. But we do not take their daughters and do not give
ours.” (Segal 53). Katz & Goldberg writes, “The Cochinites (Cochin Paradesi
Jews) were concerned not only about the mother’s substance, but about the purity
of the father’s substance as well. Marriage and sexual relations were,
therefore, of paramount concern because if the Jewish blood of a couple was
considered tainted, the partners and the offspring of that union were no longer
recognized as Cochinites” (Katz & Goldberg 129).
Referring to another Jewish custom among Knanites, Katz & Goldberg writes, “The
Knana retained some Jewish observances, and it may be correct to call them
“Jewish Christians”, a sect which is believed to have expired by the time the
early church became primarily Gentile, some seventeen centuries ago; their
vestigial Jewish observances have been noted. The Southists retain the custom of
tying into a corner of their saris a bit of the hearth ashes or earth from
Cranganore when the bride leaves her parents’ home for that of her new husband,
a reenactment of their departure from Jerusalem for Malabar, when they brought
bits of the earth with them. They are rather derogatorily known to other
Christians as charamkettikal or ash tiers” (Katz & Goldberg 53).
Dr. ShalvaWeil in examining the similarities between Cochin Jews and Knanites
observes that, “there is a clear affinity between the White Jew’s songs and
theKnanite songs. Indeed, many of the parallels in the historical songs refer to
Cranganore, which so far as has been found almost exclusively in the song books
of the White Jews and appears to have been omitted by the Black Jews” (Weil
193)."
The link to the website in which this article came from-
pazhayathu.blogspot.com/2011/06/similarities-in-migration-pattern-of.html
“Similarities in the migration pattern of Knanites and Jews”
"Prof. P.M. Jussay, in his 1978 paper, found the wedding songs of Cochin Jews and
Knanites to be mostly identical with only minimum differences in the versesHe found that many words used in
these songs are of Aramaic, Yemenite, and Spanish origin. After careful study of
these words he states, “the words found in the songs of these communities,
which, as far as I know, do not occur in any of the songs of other communities,
whether Christian or pagan”.
Dr. J.B. Segal points out that the overwhelming similarities are not limited
just to the songs. He writes, "Some practices of the Kanayas are regarded as
Jewish origin: for instance, the wearing of a veil by Kanaya brides and the
Kanaya burial with the head in the direction of Jerusalem . More significant are
the Easter customs of the sect. Like the Jews at Passover, they eat unleavened
bread and partake as an evening meal. They also recount the stories of Creation
and Exodus from Egypt " (Segal 7). Dr. Weil also compares Knanite Easter
customs to Jewish customs. She writes, “The celebration of Easter appears to be
the test case. On this day, Knanites partake of unleavened bread reminiscent of
the Jewish matzot and drink wine prepared from coconut milk and plums which is
of a faint red colour like the wine drunk by Jews on the Passover sader night.
Before the festive Easter meal, Biblical songs are sung about Creation and
Exodus from Egypt, this later story being related on the Jewish sader night-in
addition to stories from the New Testament and Last Supper” (Weil 184).
Another similarity Dr. Segal points out is the practice of endogamy in these two
communities. Jews who came from pure middle-eastern origin are called
Paradesi/White Jews or “Myukhasim”. Those came from converts, manumitted slaves
and mixed marriages are called Black Jews or “Meshurchrarim”. Paradesis
(Myukhasim) never married the locals (Meshurchrarim). Segal quotes Ezekiel
Rahabi, a Cochin White Jew who states, “We are called White Jews, who are people
who came from the Holy Land , and the Jews whom they call Black were created in
Malabar from proselytization and manumission, but their laws, regulations, and
prayer are all like ours. But we do not take their daughters and do not give
ours.” (Segal 53). Katz & Goldberg writes, “The Cochinites (Cochin Paradesi
Jews) were concerned not only about the mother’s substance, but about the purity
of the father’s substance as well. Marriage and sexual relations were,
therefore, of paramount concern because if the Jewish blood of a couple was
considered tainted, the partners and the offspring of that union were no longer
recognized as Cochinites” (Katz & Goldberg 129).
Referring to another Jewish custom among Knanites, Katz & Goldberg writes, “The
Knana retained some Jewish observances, and it may be correct to call them
“Jewish Christians”, a sect which is believed to have expired by the time the
early church became primarily Gentile, some seventeen centuries ago; their
vestigial Jewish observances have been noted. The Southists retain the custom of
tying into a corner of their saris a bit of the hearth ashes or earth from
Cranganore when the bride leaves her parents’ home for that of her new husband,
a reenactment of their departure from Jerusalem for Malabar, when they brought
bits of the earth with them. They are rather derogatorily known to other
Christians as charamkettikal or ash tiers” (Katz & Goldberg 53).
Dr. ShalvaWeil in examining the similarities between Cochin Jews and Knanites
observes that, “there is a clear affinity between the White Jew’s songs and
theKnanite songs. Indeed, many of the parallels in the historical songs refer to
Cranganore, which so far as has been found almost exclusively in the song books
of the White Jews and appears to have been omitted by the Black Jews” (Weil
193)."
The link to the website in which this article came from-
pazhayathu.blogspot.com/2011/06/similarities-in-migration-pattern-of.html
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daffyjoe
Guest
Sorry for the late again Mr.Thomman. Now the answers. Just claiming we are original jewish fellows came from mars and we claim endogamy as a group of Gorillas with out any credible and verifiable source is a matter of debate. Secondly, why you are claiming you are original St.Thomas Christian where you are just followers of Knai thomman? Anyway can you provide the issue to me? And the reason too?
Since you had asked for the citations can I ask you a simple citation. what is the present stand of southist on from where you had come?
I can provide you the pictures of similar families with ginger hair and very light skin but they don’t belongs to knanaya but belongs to Gowders. Ok, leave it the following are the pictures which I got from chaithanya matrimony. Since it is your official matrimony site I guess you cannot deny that they are not knanayas. Also the site name is embedded in it.
Ok,Now let us see some gounders from their matrimonial site.
Is there any similarity or our eyes are bluffing us? Or is it because they also came from the LEVANT?
Irrevalent. Believe in what you had seen not what on you see. If I am at a funeral, during speech about the deceased man, I will talk only about the good things about that fellow whether it is true or false. Might the same occured here since it is in your meeting.
It may be because I live in the new generation having knowledge about the song or you have no knowledge about original st.Thomas Christians and their culture.
So you finally came to the point, Then why you are saying you are St.Thomas Christians since you say we are southist/knanaya ? please be precise to this point and don’t deviate from the topic.
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Thomas48
Guest
There is no problem at all in replying late my friend, take your time. Anyway where have Knananites claimed that we are St.Thomas Christians? Even on the wikipedia “St.Thomas Christians” page Knananites are not included because everyone knows they are a separate ethnic group.
St.Thomas Christians are the descendants of those families who have for centuries followed the traditions of St.Thomas and Syriac Christianity in India.
Knananite Christians are the descendants of those Early Christian families who traveled to Kerala under the leadership of Knai Thoma and Uraha Mar Yosef only to strengthen the St.Thomas Christians. They also follow the traditions of St.Thomas and Syriac Christianity.
Watch this video created by the Mathoma Church. It is a historical video on the Malankara Marthoma Christians. At scene 16:38 Knai Thoma and his people are mentioned arriving at Kerala.
youtube.com/watch?v=6kBkba7Tr8g
There is no single stance on this topic but the Middle East would be a relevant answer. Like I replied earlier KRG or the Knanaya Research Group always searches for historical attributes on questions like these, so we can one day understand our history to the fullest.
If they are members of Chaithanya then they are most likely of Knananite origin. I can not question if they are or not, like you have stated their are DNA tests for that. Also if that is so, and there are gounders that have the traits of light skin and ginger hair like the pictures I shared of Knananites, than please provide me these pictures of the gounders.
Are you saying our Major Archbishop is a liar and that he says statements that people want to hear? But later changes his views on these statements?
I am sorry friend but I don’t understand your statement. I asked you in my previous quote, “why do you think us Knananites hacked St.Thomas Christian history.” Out of my quote, how did you get to the point that I think St.Thomas Christians are Knananites?
**Also Daffy you have not yet shown me the parallels of the Knananite and Gounder wedding videos. I am guessing from this absence that a parallel cannot be found?
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daffyjoe
Guest
Dear Thomman, please go through the title of the forum itself and still you are saying you haven’t misutilised the name of original St.Thomas Christians?
So you fellows strengthened us? How? Could u explain?
Oh really? So sad and bad.
There may be a thousand videos who are showing this and that with out any reliable sources. Unfortunately I am not in a mood to see another horror movie.
Again, I appreciate that. The pictures I provided contains watermark so that you cannot deny they don’t belong to knanaya. But I don’t see any watermark or other embedded signature especially in the pictures you provided with ginger hair and bulgan beard
and you need more pictures of gounders provided to you by me LOL…We, St.Thomas Christians has a proven and documented history. I think it is the main diffence between you and me (jhangalkku appanundu). So that we don’t change our history and even the name of our community day by day.
We don’t believe in the fabricated history of southists/knanaya. Even each and every tests conducted or scientific evidence doesn’t support it. Since you also lacks history or might have a defamed history (like, ningal knanaya thommante vediyilundaaya makkalaanu.pennu kittaathe ningal ningalude pengalmaare thane innum kalyaanam kazhiykkunnu) you try to assert the world that you are original St.Thomas Christians.
To find and prove your history is not my JOB, will you mind it? Although I can provide you a copy of your genetic tests which I obtained from your google group since I think it is much more important to your history. Given below is the link to the forum which opposes the words “No boss I oppose it since There may be tainted blood within us” while one was much eager to conduct a genetic study within knanayas. Anyway it is much funny to read.
link is provided below to the forum.
groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/knanayafamily/uC3NBNUnglY
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Thomas48
Guest
Knananites are apart of the St.Thomas Christian History, though we are not apart of the same ethnic group.
Those pictures came out of this photo directory.
View attachment 16337
You do not prove my history you challenge it with statements of our lineage coming from Hindus/etc. And so I ask you to cite these statements and you have not given me a single citation yet. I have given you many citations friend, coming from scholarly sources and I will give you another at the end of the post. By DNA tests you will find as scientists say, that we are all the descendants of apes and not Adam and Eve. You should go with your faith not science, it derails Christianity. Now I have no idea if this is an official DNA source, so I cannot accept it.
I really don’t see a point in arguing on the fundamentals of Knanaya History. The Syro Malabar Church, The Syriac Orthodox Church, The Syro Malankara Catholic Church, The Jacobite Syrian Church, and The Holy Catholic Church all accept our history. The Major Archbishop of your own church even stated that he finds our history valid. If they did not, they would not have allowed the creation of numerous institutions for Knananites. So I will not waste my time in caring what one user “Daffyjoe” thinks of Knananites.
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Thomas48
Guest
A completely cited source on the history of Knananites from a Pontifical Institute. This being from a Pontifical Institute and also the fact that it is a scholarly source overrides any of your statements. I am done with arguing the fundamentals of my communities history with a random Syro Malabar user who wants only to cause strife.
Source - Please Read
scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:SGTgISp-YuEJ:scholar.google.com/+knanaya&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44
THE EXISTENCE OF THE KNANAYA COMMUNITY AND THE KNANAYA CATHOLIC COMMUNITY
A Thesis Submitted to the Department of Philosophy in Candidacy for the Degree of Bachelor of Philosophy.
Department of Philosophy
PONTIFICAL INSTITUTE OF THEOLOGY AND PHILOSOPHY, ALWAYE
By Abraham Mukalel
Directed by Rev. Fr. Jose Karimattam
Prof. of Sociology
Dedicated to
Mr. M. L. Mathai & Mrs. Leelamma Mathew
Source - Please Read
scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:SGTgISp-YuEJ:scholar.google.com/+knanaya&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44
THE EXISTENCE OF THE KNANAYA COMMUNITY AND THE KNANAYA CATHOLIC COMMUNITY
A Thesis Submitted to the Department of Philosophy in Candidacy for the Degree of Bachelor of Philosophy.
Department of Philosophy
PONTIFICAL INSTITUTE OF THEOLOGY AND PHILOSOPHY, ALWAYE
By Abraham Mukalel
Directed by Rev. Fr. Jose Karimattam
Prof. of Sociology
Dedicated to
Mr. M. L. Mathai & Mrs. Leelamma Mathew
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daffyjoe
Guest
OMG! I thought that you are going to provide us the scanned copy of cheppedu (copper plate provided by cheraman perumal).
I just gone through the document provided. The King cheramaan perumaal is just a legend who is said to be ruled kerala during 12th centuary A.D. That means during the fabrication of your story KRG (Knanaya Research Group), during 1980s, made a bluffing mistake. They claimed their arrival on 375 A.D
Anyway your new story book is non other than a southist self made history made by a knanaya priest and I guess he may not received the B.Phil (Bachelor of Philosophy) with this paper. I wish to resubmit this goof to diocese of Kottayam so that they can publish it as “The syrian colonisation of Malabar version 2”
Stating proofs and references are according to you is just “who wants only to cause strife”. Nobody can see any authentic proof in your replies nor from any so called southist/knanaya. Just narrations of their racial supremacy without any proof. Even you replied that “scientific proof is against Christianity” lol. Even spokesman of Holy church had already said that “There may be aliens and then they are also a boon by god”. Everybody recognises science except you means you are unable to provide any scientific proof or otherwise your lineage is 100% corrupted with local Dravidian population and I surprise why???
Jo
R
rakovsky
Guest
Shouldn’t it actually be rather easy for anthropologists to resolve the question of whether Knanaya are Jewish Christian immigrants from Syria or are simply converts to Christianity from the local Jewish Cochin population?
**
You have listed numerous Jewish practices used by Knanaya. Couldn’t someone check to see when the Jewish rabbis created those practices?** If the practices didn’t exist until 400 AD or later, then we could guess that the Knayana were still part of the nonChristian Jewish community as late as 400 AD or afterwards. In that case, it would mean that they were not Jewish Christians living in Syria in 300 AD, but rather were Jews who converted to Christianity after that time.
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
The problem is that the Knanaya practices that are claimed to be possibly Jewish origin are NOT well studied; the claimed Jewish practices are from obscure, not well studied sources - for example Mizrahi/Sephardic Jewish practices of Babylon, pre-Islam (some of the “practices” were common to culture, whether Mandean, Manichean, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, Sunni, Sufi, Shi’ia, etc) - so how does one narrow it to a religious conversion, rather than a cultural attrition or even imitation?
- Status