St. Thomas More avoiding parties

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(I am not sure where best to post this.)

Once upon a time I heard a story about St. Thomas More and am wondering if anyone might know of a source where I can verify this.

St. Thomas, being very witty and charming, found himself being invited to an increasing number of social engagements, which began to concern him. He would have preferred to spend his time with his family and away from the social circuit of his day. However, he did not wish to offend anyone by turning down their invitations. So he continued to attend the parties, but decreased his participation while there. Gradually his appeal wore off and he was no longer invited.

Would anyone know where I might find confirmation of this story? Might there be a quote by St. Thomas himself describing this, or maybe by some biographer of his?

Any help anyone can give will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks and God bless!

John
 
I’m currently reading a little biography of St. Thomas More: The Story of Thomas More by John Farrow (1954). It includes long passages from contemporary accounts of people who knew him. If I find anything like this, I will let you know. I’ve only gotten as far as his early marriage, during which time he frequently had guests over for dinner, kept a clown in his home, and had monkeys in his garden. 🙂
 
aspirant said:
I’m currently reading a little biography of St. Thomas More: The Story of Thomas More by John Farrow (1954). It includes long passages from contemporary accounts of people who knew him. If I find anything like this, I will let you know. I’ve only gotten as far as his early marriage, during which time he frequently had guests over for dinner, kept a clown in his home, and had monkeys in his garden. 🙂
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…And people says saints didn’t have fun XD
 
babybear said:
(I am not sure where best to post this.)

Once upon a time I heard a story about St. Thomas More and am wondering if anyone might know of a source where I can verify this.

St. Thomas, being very witty and charming, found himself being invited to an increasing number of social engagements, which began to concern him. He would have preferred to spend his time with his family and away from the social circuit of his day. However, he did not wish to offend anyone by turning down their invitations. So he continued to attend the parties, but decreased his participation while there. Gradually his appeal wore off and he was no longer invited.

Would anyone know where I might find confirmation of this story? Might there be a quote by St. Thomas himself describing this, or maybe by some biographer of his?

Any help anyone can give will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks and God bless!

John
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You have to know one very important thing about Thomas. He was a Franciscan. The Rule of St. Francis for the Secular Franciscans said that they should avoid all forms of parties. They were to dedicate their lives to raising their families according to the manner that St. Francis prescribed in the rule. They were also to practice great penance and austerity in their daily lives. This meant that frivolous entertainment was out of the question. They could have family entertainment. That’s a whole other story.

Thomas was a very faithful son of St. Francis. The rule also says that the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, which is what Thomas was, were to be charitable. It said in the rule, that for the sake of charity, they were not to refuse the kindness of others. If others invited them to their homes or placed a grand meal before them, even though the rule specified that they were to live very simple lives and eat very simple meals, they were not to reject what was offered in kindness. Because St. Francis did not want his sons and daughters to offend the sensibilities of those who were trying to be kind.

So the Secular Franciscans have always had to struggle to keep a balance between accepting kindness, such as an invitation to a family gathering, even if it’s someone else’s family and accepting an invitation to a night of folly and fun. They may both be parties, but not the same kind. If I attend your wedding, it’s an act of kindness on your part to invite me and an sign of respect on my part to attend your reception. If you have a wild party at your home, it may not be an act of kindness on your part to invite me. You may just be tyring to get the numbers for wild night. In that case, it would not be unkind for me to decline the invitation. Thomas, being a very holy man, tried his best to be as boring as possible, so as not to be invited to this kind of party. But he did not avoid all parties. He had children and grandchildren. He probably attended their birthday parties and his daughter’s wedding reception. He dearly loved King Henry VIII. He probably attended many of Henry’s family functions, while avoiding those that were not so family oriented.

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
LilyM said:
😃

I always respond to such people with a quote from St Teresa of Avila: “Lord preserve us from sour-faced saints!”
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Saints had a lot of fun. Let’s look at a few.

St. Francis: musician, singer, song writer, loved to dance and had a wonderful sense of humor.

St. Teresa of Jesus: musician, singer, song writer, had a great sense of humor, loved games.

St. Therese of Liseux: loved the theater and acting. Wrote her own play about Joan of Arc and played Joan in it.

St. Jon Bosco: loved soccer

St. Elizabeth Ann Seton: an accomplished pianist and dancer. Loved dancing until the day she became too sick to dance. She was already a sister and was still enjoying dancing around the house.

St. Thomas Aquinas: loved pastry and good food. Would drop everything to eat. Was huge. So big that the Dominicans called him The Oaf. Hey, eating can be fun.

St. Padre Pio: loved to play pranks on the other friars. Did not take them too well. He was one who could dish it out, but could not take it.

Bl. John XXIII: great sense of humor, loved dinner parties, loved company

Ven. John Paul II: loved kids, loved teens, hiking, soccer, swimming, theater and movies. Had a movie theater and a swimming pool built for him. He said that it would be cheaper to build a swimming pool for his exercise than to elect a new pope.

Bl. Mother Teresa: loved children’s games. When she was teaching, she would teach through games.

There are many forms of fun and the saints have enjoyed them all. Some also enjoyed a good beer, such as St. Conrad.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
You know, hearing those things just brings a smile to my face! When i think of saints, I think of staunch, stoic men and women who condemn the world for being, well, the world and dissaprove of a little harmless fun. But that makes them seem all the more human, relateable!
 
JReducation said:
Saints had a lot of fun. Let’s look at a few.

Bl. John XXIII: great sense of humor, loved dinner parties, loved company

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Great and wicked sense of humour. A story often told is that someone once asked him how many people worked at the Vatican and he said ‘Oh … about half of them!’ 🤣
 
shondrea said:
…And people says saints didn’t have fun XD
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On the subject of St. Thomas More, I highly recommend this John Farrow biography, The Story of Thomas More, to anyone able to find a copy (it’s out of print now, but available used). Chapter four is almost entirely written by Thomas’ friend Erasmus on the subject of Thomas’ character. It’s impossible to read this without thinking St. Thomas More an amiable and fun person. 🙂
 
aspirant said:
On the subject of St. Thomas More, I highly recommend this John Farrow biography, The Story of Thomas More, to anyone able to find a copy (it’s out of print now, but available used). Chapter four is almost entirely written by Thomas’ friend Erasmus on the subject of Thomas’ character. It’s impossible to read this without thinking St. Thomas More an amiable and fun person. 🙂
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Thomas was delightful and charming. If you find it, read his book, Utopia. It’s lightness in delivery, coupled with the depth of the message reflects and author who could say very profound things in a very light manner. I find people like that fascinating company.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
 
babybear said:
Once upon a time I heard a story about St. Thomas More and am wondering if anyone might know of a source where I can verify this.

St. Thomas, being very witty and charming, found himself being invited to an increasing number of social engagements, which began to concern him. He would have preferred to spend his time with his family and away from the social circuit of his day. However, he did not wish to offend anyone by turning down their invitations. So he continued to attend the parties, but decreased his participation while there. Gradually his appeal wore off and he was no longer invited.

Would anyone know where I might find confirmation of this story? Might there be a quote by St. Thomas himself describing this, or maybe by some biographer of his?
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I believe I have found what you’re looking for, though it’s not exactly what you were told.

Thomas More, though very educated, just, ethical, and well-liked, was never an ambitious man. He never aspired to high office in the government, especially because he disliked duties that took him away from the family and friends to which he was very devoted. (He especially hated being sent overseas as an ambassador.)

But with the elevation of Wolsey, More was increasingly drawn into the court of King Henry VIII. And the royal court did not stay in one place, but moved around quite a bit in trying to avoid the “Sweating Sickness.”

Here is the passage on which what you heard is undoubtedly based:
“[William Roper wrote] ‘And because [More] was of pleasant disposition, it pleased the King [Henry] and Queen [Catherine], after the Council had supped… commonly to call for him to be merry with them.’ [Farrow continues] This popularity with the King was all very well, but for a man so devoted to his own hearth, it was also irksome. There were times when his liberty from the Court did not exceed two days a month. Realizing the error of being too entertaining a courtier, he sought to employ a different tactic. [Quoting Roper again] ‘…much misliking this restraint of his liberty, [More] began thereupon somewhat to dissemble his nature, and so little and little from his former accustomed mirth to disuse himself, that he was of them from thenceforth at such seasons no more ordinarily sent for.’ [Farrow continues] In other words, he pretended to be dull, but the ruse never fully succeeded.”

The problem was not, for More, social engagements and parties, which he truly enjoyed and often hosted. The problem was being drawn deeper into the king’s court and not having liberty to spend time with his own family and friends.

If I find more (no pun intended), I will let you know!

Hope that helps. 🙂
 
aspirant said:
Here is the passage on which what you heard is undoubtedly based:

“[William Roper wrote] ‘And because [More] was of pleasant disposition, it pleased the King [Henry] and Queen [Catherine], after the Council had supped… commonly to call for him to be merry with them.’ [Farrow continues] This popularity with the King was all very well, but for a man so devoted to his own hearth, it was also irksome. There were times when his liberty from the Court did not exceed two days a month. Realizing the error of being too entertaining a courtier, he sought to employ a different tactic. [Quoting Roper again] ‘…much misliking this restraint of his liberty, [More] began thereupon somewhat to dissemble his nature, and so little and little from his former accustomed mirth to disuse himself, that he was of them from thenceforth at such seasons no more ordinarily sent for.’ [Farrow continues] In other words, he pretended to be dull, but the ruse never fully succeeded.”
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Dear Aspirant,

Thank you very much!!! That is just what I was looking for!!! And it is exactly what I had understood about the story even if I did not describe it very well.

May God bless and reward you!

John
 
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