St.Thomas More

[floresco]

As I have been learning to appreciate a poster here who has taken his screen name from the saint, I have also been thinking about St. Thomas. I did a paper once that involved researching his home life and I found it inspiring. I had been aware of his virtue in public life, but only then discovered his virtue as husband and father. I have found an article online for anyone interested in this aspect of one of my favourite saints: familylifecenter.net/article.asp?artid=110

After St. Joseph, one of the best saints for Christian fathers to imitate is St. Thomas More. The life of this layman who became a saint is like a diamond reflecting the many facets of a good father.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

With St. Thomas Becket, St. Thomas More is my patron saint and I took the name “Thomas” at my confirmation. *A Man For All Seasons *has influenced my thinking like no other movie.

 

[Emmit_Fitzhume]

Truly one of my favorite too. A man not afraid of calling a heretic a heretic. Something you can not do today without being chastised. I love the man. Great saint for us to model!!

 

[Salvatore123]

As an attorney whose patron saint is St. Thomas More and whose Hans Holbien picture hangs behind his credenza in his office, I can say that Paul Scofield’s portrayal will never be topped. It, too, is one of my favorite movies.

I was sad to discover after really studying the man and buying the entire Yale collection of all of St. Thomas More’s books, that A Man for All Seasons is inaccurate in several crucial respects

 

[amsjj]

Thanks for the interesting article, floresco (love your signature BTW!). Some good points, for me especially:
**
Too many Catholic dads dump the entire responsibility for teaching their children onto the shoulders of their wives or teachers. The Catholic Church teaches that mothers and fathers are the primary educators of their children.
**

The only thing I was surprised was that it didn’t mention the Saint’s devotion to his own father, Sir John More, e.g. he would kneel before the elder More and ask for his blessing. And of course, another famed More descendent was Bishop W.B. Ullathorne, the first Bishop of Birmingham.

Sadly, I’m one of the few who’s not so fond of “A Man for All Seasons”. Not its fault at all, b/c a two hour play/movie can’t bring in too much, but to me it’s like Thomas More-lite. In college I also read Yale’s “Complete Works of St. Thomas More”, and realised there was so much more to him. I was so taken by his writings – oh, I used to devour them! One gets such a feel for how he sounded like – especially alliteration! – and then his different fields of interest are wide: biography, poetry, polemics, prayers; his letters are also of great interest.

Anyway, I heartily recommend reading his works (the larger academic libraries should have them, or some public libraries can temporarily request them for a fee).

+++

From: “A deuoute prayer”:

Almighty god, take from me al vaynglorious mindes, all appetites of myne owne praise, all enuye, couetyse, glotony, slouth and lecherye, al wrathfull affeccions, all appetite of reuengynge, al desire or delite of other folks harme, all pleasure in prouoking any parson to wrath and anger, al delite of exprobracion, or insultacion against anye parson in their affliccion and calamitie.

And geue me good Lorde an humble, lowlye, quiet, peasible, pacient, charytable, kinde, tender, and piteful minde, with all my workes, and al my wordes and all my thoughtes, to haue a taste of thy holy holy blessed spirite.

Geue me good Lorde, a full faythe, a firme hope, and a feruent charity, a loue to the good lorde incomparable aboue the loue to my selfe, and that I loue nothing to thy displeasure, but euery thing in an order to the.

Geue me good lord, a longing to be wt the, not for thauoiding of the calamities of this wretched world, nor so much for ye auoiding of the paines of purgatory nor of the paines of hel neither, nor so much for the atteining of ye ioyes of heauen, in respect of mine own commodity, as euen for a very loue of the.

pp. 229-230 of The Complete Works of St. Thomas More, Volume 9: The Apology.

---

take care,
amsjj

+++

Jesus, God and man,
imprisoned by love in Thy most holy Sacrament,
have mercy upon us.
– Venerable John Henry Newman, December 22, 1851
(LD, XIV, 511).

 

[StTommyMore]

Reading Utopia has really shaped my views on social justice. I only wish that I can have this great saint’s charity and fortitude.

 

[Salvatore123]

StTommyMore,

Please understand I am NOT questioning your competency as a reader or your intellect by saying the following;

I was wondering if you realized that More did not actually belief Utopia in the way that many people read it today. He was attempting to try to balance life in a “perfect” place where materialism did not matter, with his own life at court, where materialism meant everything, and where he was front and center for many years. He even tolerated the existence of non-Catholics in the book, and that was the most obvious point (especially to those who knew and understood him) that he did not mean the book to be taken literally. More was well known for his prosecution of heretics (burning several), washed his hands of his own son in law for a while while Roper flirted with Lutheranism for a short time, and ultimately paid the ultimate price of his Catholic belief.

That is what I alluded to earlier about the movie A Man for all Seasons.

Although it is difficult to think of anyone other than Scofield as having been More, the movie incorrectly portrays More’s trial and the reason why he was ultimatedly beheaded.

More did NOT remain silent after he resigned as Chancellor. On the contrary, he continued to write numerous works, and repeatedly attacked the Protestant Revolt (I had always refused to call it the “Reformation” - they did not want reform - they wanted a new religion, plain and simple). Henry VIII, and most notably his Chancellor after More, Cromwell. THESE writings were the primary “downfall” of More - not “silence”, as the movie indicates.

If so inclined, I highly recommended obtaining a copy of the trial record of More. It goes into great detail of the four primary charges (three of which were dismissed on their face as being so ridiculous and unprovable), and states specifically how More was finally found guilty (by judges - NOT a jury as shown in the movie).

More is indeed a saint to imitate in life.

Only More could have lost his first wife and then remarried within a matter of only several months after her death, and yet no one questioned his motives for doing so: the need of a woman in his household to whom he would be devoted - Alice - and who would help to raise his young children.

Regards

 

[StTommyMore]

StTommyMore,

Please understand I am NOT questioning your competency as a reader or your intellect by saying the following;

I was wondering if you realized that More did not actually belief Utopia in the way that many people read it today. He was attempting to try to balance life in a “perfect” place where materialism did not matter, with his own life at court, where materialism meant everything, and where he was front and center for many years. He even tolerated the existence of non-Catholics in the book, and that was the most obvious point (especially to those who knew and understood him) that he did not mean the book to be taken literally. More was well known for his prosecution of heretics (burning several), washed his hands of his own son in law for a while while Roper flirted with Lutheranism for a short time, and ultimately paid the ultimate price of his Catholic belief.

That is what I alluded to earlier about the movie A Man for all Seasons.

Although it is difficult to think of anyone other than Scofield as having been More, the movie incorrectly portrays More’s trial and the reason why he was ultimatedly beheaded.

More did NOT remain silent after he resigned as Chancellor. On the contrary, he continued to write numerous works, and repeatedly attacked the Protestant Revolt (I had always refused to call it the “Reformation” - they did not want reform - they wanted a new religion, plain and simple). Henry VIII, and most notably his Chancellor after More, Cromwell. THESE writings were the primary “downfall” of More - not “silence”, as the movie indicates.

If so inclined, I highly recommended obtaining a copy of the trial record of More. It goes into great detail of the four primary charges (three of which were dismissed on their face as being so ridiculous and unprovable), and states specifically how More was finally found guilty (by judges - NOT a jury as shown in the movie).

More is indeed a saint to imitate in life.

Only More could have lost his first wife and then remarried within a matter of only several months after her death, and yet no one questioned his motives for doing so: the need of a woman in his household to whom he would be devoted - Alice - and who would help to raise his young children.

Regards

I fully understand that Utopia is not the condemnation of capitalism that socialists make it out to be. I was, however, influenced by the condemnation of overuse of the death penalty.

 

[Salvatore123]

StTommy,

Thank you for taking my reply in the spirit in which it was intended - NOT a condemnatino of you or your interpretation.

Ironically, in actual life, although More denied, under oath to God, torturing alleged heretics to obtain confessions, he did not object to burning them. This is documented even by biographers who are sympathetic to More (Marius is NOT one of them).

The best two books on More, by far in my opinion, are:

The King’s Good Servant by God’s First by James Monti

Thomas More by Gerard Wegemer

 

[StTommyMore]

StTommy,

Thank you for taking my reply in the spirit in which it was intended - NOT a condemnatino of you or your interpretation.

Ironically, in actual life, although More denied, under oath to God, torturing alleged heretics to obtain confessions, he did not object to burning them. This is documented even by biographers who are sympathetic to More (Marius is NOT one of them).

The best two books on More, by far in my opinion, are:

The King’s Good Servant by God’s First by James Monti

Thomas More by Gerard Wegemer

At the same time, according to EWTN, only four were executed under his watch. But we must also remember that More was a product of his time, and heresy was viewed much differently back then

 

[Salvatore123]

While I do not suggest we burn heretics today, I find it ironic that we are so willing to “kill” something that will kill our bodies (cancer, other diseases, parasites) but we do not take steps that might be very necessary that will kill our souls . . .

 

[MarkThompson]

While I do not suggest we burn heretics today, I find it ironic that we are so willing to “kill” something that will kill our bodies (cancer, other diseases, parasites) but we do not take steps that might be very necessary that will kill our souls . . .

It is not immoral to kill a virus or bacterium. It is immoral to kill a human being. If you’re so easily led to equate the two (a human life is like a parasite?) then you ought to be dealing with much more immediate and serious moral concerns than “heretics.”

 

[StTommyMore]

It is not immoral to kill a virus or bacterium. It is immoral to kill a human being. If you’re so easily led to equate the two (a human life is like a parasite?) then you ought to be dealing with much more immediate and serious moral concerns than “heretics.”

Actually, this is the way heresy was viewed. It was better to kill a few individuals in order to preserve the Body of Christ.

 

[MarkThompson]

Actually, this is the way heresy was viewed. It was better to kill a few individuals in order to preserve the Body of Christ.

That involves a complex moral judgment which, unless completely botched, would never proceed by equating any person or class of people to parasites or vermin. Similarly it is permissible to kill a person in self-defense, but it is morally erroneous to say, “It’s no different from cutting out a tumor.” It’s worlds different, even if in the end one is permitted to kill both.

No person is a parasite. Each person is precious in the eyes of God. The Church recognizes that taking a life may occasionally be necessary (the death penalty in rare cases, just war, etc.), but it’s never because the person has stopped being “worthy of living” or has become “a mere parasite.”

 

[StTommyMore]

That involves a complex moral judgment which, unless completely botched, would never proceed by equating any person or class of people to parasites or vermin. Similarly it is permissible to kill a person in self-defense, but it is morally erroneous to say, “It’s no different from cutting out a tumor.” It’s worlds different, even if in the end one is permitted to kill both.

No person is a parasite. Each person is precious in the eyes of God. The Church recognizes that taking a life may occasionally be necessary (the death penalty in rare cases, just war, etc.), but it’s never because the person has stopped being “worthy of living” or has become “a mere parasite.”

Trust me, I am not an advocate for the death penalty. However, we must remember that we cannot judge actions taken in the past by modern standards. Moral theology has developed quite a bit over the last five centuries.

 

[MarkThompson]

Trust me, I am not an advocate for the death penalty. However, we must remember that we cannot judge actions taken in the past by modern standards. Moral theology has developed quite a bit over the last five centuries.

Some truths are eternal and unchangeable, just as valid in 1500 as in 2010, and just as valid in the US as in the Brazilian jungle or a life raft lost at sea. Others are not. It takes a practiced mind to discern which are which, and if you get it wrong then you’ve mistakenly adopted a form of moral relativism.

That’s beside the point, though, since I wasn’t judging the actions of the past at all; I was remarking on the attitude I saw displayed in the “parasite” post.

 

[Salvatore123]

If you truly read my post and REALLY concluded I equated “human life” and a “parasite”, well, I don’t know WHAT to say . . .

My POINT is that we seem so concerned about too much sun (skin cancer), too much fat in our diets (heart attacks), and the like,

yet we hardly do anything to prevent the attack on our souls - TV, movies, sex, violence, and the like.

Do you REALLY believe that I consider a human being the same as a parasite, based on what I said?

I could care less about heretics today, as we don’t “deal” with them at all. Hell, the American bishops readily give them communion without even the slightest objection.

I do, however, care about what my children see and hear everyday, as their SOULS are more important than their bodies. I want them to lead long, healthy lives - certainly. But all the amount of good living will do them no good if their souls are corrupted and poisoned or diseased.

That was the only thing I was talking about.

Geez - this started out as a discussion about St. Thomas More and how he has been portrayed in religion, movies, plays.

 

[MarkThompson]

If you truly read my post and REALLY concluded I equated “human life” and a “parasite”, well, I don’t know WHAT to say . . .

My POINT is that we seem so concerned about too much sun (skin cancer), too much fat in our diets (heart attacks), and the like,

yet we hardly do anything to prevent the attack on our souls - TV, movies, sex, violence, and the like.

Do you REALLY believe that I consider a human being the same as a parasite, based on what I said?

I could care less about heretics today, as we don’t “deal” with them at all. Hell, the American bishops readily give them communion without even the slightest objection.

I do, however, care about what my children see and hear everyday, as their SOULS are more important than their bodies. I want them to lead long, healthy lives - certainly. But all the amount of good living will do them no good if their souls are corrupted and poisoned or diseased.

That was the only thing I was talking about.

Geez - this started out as a discussion about St. Thomas More and how he has been portrayed in religion, movies, plays.

Thanks for the explanation; I must have misinterpreted your post. I thought you were saying that it is ironic that we exterminate bacteria and parasites, which can harm the body, when we don’t exterminate heretics, who can harm the soul. I suppose I read an attempt to draw an equivalence where none was intended.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Hi folks!

As many of you may have already read, I just took over the TC forum from Jo Benedict who has tried to wear many hats at one time. For the sake of sanity, I’m trying to regroup here. I’m closing this thread, because it is way off topic. This is not a punitive measure. Just housekeeping.

If you wish to continue your discussion, by all means do so. Feel free to open another thread with the proper title. Just follow CAF rules.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Thomas Casey
Moderator