St. Thomas' Motion Argument and Modern Physics

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11.We have not even discussed the truths of the sacred scriptures, tradition and the Magesterium. Events in both the Old and New Testaments were prophesied and they were subsequently confirmed -the event prophesied actually occurred within a day or in days, weeks, months, years, decades or over several centuries. The sheer number of prophecies and their consistent fulfilment (before and after the birth of Christ) recorded in the New and Old Testaments and especially those fulfilled in Jesus Christ, is beyond the scope and capacity of physical science for an explanation. The prophecies and their fulfilment are recorded in sacred scripture which truths have withstood a huge number of challenges for nigh over 2000 years as to their truth. The fulfilment of the prophecies were witnessed often by a great number of people who also had knowledge of the relevant prophecy.The witnessing was passed on to future generations (family, friends, relatives, communities) and recorded after the event.The ability to prophesy is obviously not inherited from their parents as they or their ancestors would also have such ability.There is no evidence to support any claim of inheritance of the power to prophesy. In addition where does such power to prophesy come from? The power to prophesy is a spiritual power- it is not material. It seems to me that only a pure spiritual being (“God”) has the power to give(gift) the ability to prophesy to selected humans. We can also ask - who selected the prophets? we may also ask why the persons selected as prophets and not others? We may also ask why the prophecies? What were their purpose? There is no doubt that the prophecies in the Bible actually occurred. There is no evidence whatsoever that the prophecies were recorded after the event prophesied. Over time the several attempts to provide such evidence to argue their case and discredit the truth of scared scripture.Such attempts have have been successfully rebuffed by the Church.
 
12.In addition the many miracles and signs recorded in the Bible (not all miracles are recorded as is confirmed in the Gospels) defy the laws of physical science.That is awesome is it not?These miracles were witnessed and passed on initially verbally by the Apostles after Pentecost and by many of Christ’s disciples some of whom became followers of the Apostles.The recipients of the miracles bestowed,the often many witnesses thereof, their families,relatives and communities faithfully passed on the description of the miracle event(s)to their descendants and communities and eventually to peoples in other regions of the country and other countries. Note there would likely be a number of people other than the Apostles who had witnessed more than one miracle event. For example how many of the people who witnessed the turning of a few loaves and fishes into sufficient food for 5000 men and subsequently 4000 men also witnessed the curing of the sick and the blind not only by Jesus Christ but also the miracles performed by the 70 disciples sent by Jesus Christ? How many of the disciples who witnessed the Ascension of Jesus Christ to Heaven also witnessed previous miracles? The new testament books were written within a period of about 20 -70 years after Pentecost and in most cases when most of the Apostles were still alive as were many of the recipients and witnesses of such miracles.Any material error in what was written in sacred scripture would have when picked up by those who had witnessed first hand what had been seen and/or heard and by many people who had heard directly from such witnesses ( more likely more than one miracle in many instances). I know of no credible author who denies the occurrence of a miracle and has provided hard evidence to support the claim. If that were so it would have been considered and evaluated at to its truth and if confirmed accepted as such. Why state and follow a lie? There is no evidence of any such errors. There were several conflicting, false and heretical commentaries and documents which is understandable under the circumstances. It was paramount that the Apostles , their followers and founding fathers of the Church effectively deal with such conflicts, heresies and false accounts of the truth.It seems to me that such conflict, and heresies were a major cause for the new testament books. Do you not think that if these miracles did not occur then that fact would not have been exposed? The Apostles, disciples,and other followers of Christ’s teaching would not have willingly endured the hardships of travelling and preaching what Jesus Christ had taught them with hardly any possessions of their own and risk death for teachings contrary to Roman Law if what they preached was based on lies. Martyrdom was experienced by almost all of the Apostles and many other followers of Jesus Christ especially so during the time of the Emperor Nero in about 64 AD and thereafter.Subsequent Emperors up to the 4th century followed the practice of persecuting Christians and putting them to death if they refused to give up their Christian faith and acknowledge and worship the Roman gods. These martyrs died for belief in the truth and that it was better for the body to die and for the spiritual soul to live in God’s presence in Heaven for all eternity than to disobey the commandments of Jesus Christ their Lord and Saviour which includes the the commandment of banning worship of false gods. We contend that the prophecies and their subsequent fulfilment and miracles provide further evidence of God’s existence.The martyrs died in knowledge of and belief in the truth and love of Jesus Christ the Son Of God their Lord and Saviour.In addition the miracles of Lourdes should be briefly discussed. These cases have a before and after record of the recipient of the miracle cure and which had been examined by credible doctors. There is a very thorough and sound process for evaluating proposed miracles. The Church has as I understand it approved 67 miracles attributable to visits to the shrine of the Virgin Mary at Lourdes. Physical science which was the process used in evaluating miracle cures found no scientific explanation of the said cures.Further evidence that physical science has its limitations in explaining certain events. Not only is physical science unable to explain how the recipients of the miracle were cured but also with almost everything else why a thing exists such as the Universe, our solar system, our planet Earth and human beings. IMO with all the evidence existing soon after Christ’s ascension into Heaven than any legal challenge at that time to God’s existence would have failed miserably. The testimony of the witnesses of Christ’s ministry at that time including those of the Virgin Mary, the Apostles,the recipients and other witnesses of the miracles,would have overwhelmingly found in favour of the the existence of God, Jesus Christ as the Word and son of God and the Blessed Trinity, indeed the Apostles Creed would almost certainly have been proved to be correct.
13. We have also not discussed the fact that the sacred scriptures have been theologically proven to be God’s truth and that God is the author of the books of the Bible and is written by human authors selected and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Physical science can never explain the spiritual. We take the opportunity to claim that God’s existence has been scientifically proven via theology which is a branch of science. We repeat that physical science has its limitations especially in explaining the “why” of things. To get the complete truth on an issue it is often appropriate to combine physical science with the science of theology and philosophy.
 
In conclusion it is perfectly sensible and reasonable to say God exists and is the Creator of everything.Any other conclusions are nothing more than ideas and hypothesis and more accurately termed as speculation not backed up with hard evidence. Such speculation can never be tested to prove or disprove their claims. Indeed their speculations on the origin of the universe are widely discredited by many credible cosmologists and scientists whether Christian or not As a particularly “Granny” has stated “Revelation Trumps”.Incidentally there are many scientists that are Christian and believe that God is the Creator of everything.We have provided evidence and reason to justify our belief that God exists and is the Creator of everything.Those of a contrary position have not, IMO,done likewise.

I apologise for the long post. Writers better than i could probably have condensed my post and made the points i tried to make. i hope it adds to the debate.

Truth,Love and Peace to all.
 
This is what i should have said. Getting tired is my excuse for not typing in what wanted to say in my previous post.

I apologise for the long post. Writers better than i could probably have condensed my post and made the points point i tried to make. i hope it adds to the debate.

Truth,Love and Peace to all.
 
."It is not possible for the original cell (matter)created at conception to include a spiritual soul"quote from item 7 of my earlier post

What i meant to say was that the original cell created at the instant of conception incorporates the genetic material of the body which is caused by the union of man and woman. The soul cannot be created from such union because it is spiritual. The soul is gifted by God at the instant of conception. It is the combination of the soul and the body which forms human nature both material and immaterial. The former dies upon our death and awaits the second coming of Jesus Christ. The latter survives our death forever
.

Hope i have successfully clarified my intention.

Love, Truth and Peace
 
."It is not possible for the original cell (matter)created at conception to include a spiritual soul"quote from item 7 of my earlier post

What i meant to say was that the original cell created at the instant of conception incorporates the genetic material of the body which is caused by the union of man and woman. The soul cannot be created from such union because it is spiritual. The soul is gifted by God at the instant of conception. It is the combination of the soul and the body which forms human nature both material and immaterial. The former dies upon our death and awaits the second coming of Jesus Christ. The latter survives our death forever
.

Hope i have successfully clarified my intention.

Truth,Love and Peace
The last two sentences in the penultimate paragraph in this post should read as follows:
"The latter (body) dies upon our death and will rise again at the second coming of Jesus Christ and the former (soul) survives death and lives forever and will be reunited with our risen bodies at the second coming of Jesus Christ… That is my undemanding of the gospels( St.John I think).
Now you know I am really tired. Sorry for any inconvenience.

Truth, Love and Peace.
 
The problem is Belorg has a closed mind on the validity of arguments from inference in metaphysics. He will accept it in his daily life but not if it has anything to do with God. He will not acknowledge any form of reasoning that leads to the existence of God. The fact is that even if the universe existed eternally, its existence could only be explained by a continual, eternal act of creation. For no limited, contingent existent can account for its own existence. And this would be Ex nihil, fit also, eternally from no prior being.

Linus
Out of nothing comes nothing. I think belorg wants to know how God can create something from nothing.
 
Thomas is not saying (and his is denying that it is possible) that nothing is the stuff from which creation is made.
He is saying that prior to creation there was No Thing present (i.e., “NoThing”, Nothing).
From (εκ) refers to the order or sequence, not the material out of which one thing became another thing.

John Martin
There was no thing out of which a thing could be made. Out of nothing comes nothing. So how did God create something in the absence of things from which to create.
 
what makes him think he would understand the how?

‘out of nothing comes nothing’ requires a Creator, otherwise there would indeed be nothing, ever, and we know that is not true because we are all, in fact, here in the universe…
We know that out of nothing comes nothing. You have not explained how God created something from nothing.
 
There was no thing out of which a thing could be made. Out of nothing comes nothing. So how did God create something in the absence of things from which to create.
That is what makes God who He is, He can do things we cannot only do but concerning His power and ability to do so we cannot comprehend. The " how " is beyond the threshold of human understanding. Yet we know it must be so not only through Philosophical inference by but by the express teaching of Scriptures and by the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Human intelligence was created to understand only the beings and secondary causes of this universe. It is not clear that even in Heaven whether or not God will enlighten us as to how he created the universe.

But it is certain that in our present state we cannot understand the " how. "

Linus
 
That is what makes God who He is

Linus
God cannot do the logically impossible. And asserting that he can do what is generally understood to be impossible just becuase he is God does not help the discussion or belorgs understanding. Out of nothing comes nothing, so why should anyone think that God can create without using materials or a part of himself?
 
God cannot do the logically impossible. And asserting that he can do what is generally understood to be impossible just becuase he is God does not help the discussion or belorgs understanding. Out of nothing comes nothing, so why should anyone think that God can create without using materials or a part of himself?
Linux and Linus,
Let Thomas himself state what is logically knowable about this (from ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.FP_Q46_A2.html :

Whether it is an article of faith that the world began?

I answer that,
By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity ([1]). The reason of this is that the newness of the world cannot be demonstrated on the part of the world itself. For the principle of demonstration is the essence of a thing. Now everything according to its species is abstracted from “here” and “now”; whence it is said that universals are everywhere and always. Hence it cannot be demonstrated that man, or heaven, or a stone were not always. Likewise neither can it be demonstrated on the part of the efficient cause, which acts by will. For the will of God cannot be investigated by reason, except as regards those things which God must will of necessity; and what He wills about creatures is not among these, as was said above ([3]). But the divine will can be manifested by revelation, on which faith rests. Hence that the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science. And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent, so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.
Linux, if you read Aquinas understanding that he believes in this God, you will find how his God creates such that where there is before nothing, now there is space, time, matter, and us. But it will still be to you “Aquinas’s understanding”. It will not convince you logically, except you will see that it logically flows from Aquinas’s God as that God is known by Aquinas.
You are looking for “The Answer”, but that in itself is a matter of faith on your part, coming to a point of deciding you are going to run with a certain understanding. Personally, I’m running with the God of Thomas, and find life totally delightful, and understandable with Him.

John Martin
 
Linux and Linus,
Let Thomas himself state what is logically knowable about this (from ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.FP_Q46_A2.html :

Whether it is an article of faith that the world began?

I answer that,
By faith alone do we hold, and by no demonstration can it be proved, that the world did not always exist, as was said above of the mystery of the Trinity ([1]). The reason of this is that the newness of the world cannot be demonstrated on the part of the world itself. For the principle of demonstration is the essence of a thing. Now everything according to its species is abstracted from “here” and “now”; whence it is said that universals are everywhere and always. Hence it cannot be demonstrated that man, or heaven, or a stone were not always. Likewise neither can it be demonstrated on the part of the efficient cause, which acts by will. For the will of God cannot be investigated by reason, except as regards those things which God must will of necessity; and what He wills about creatures is not among these, as was said above ([3]). But the divine will can be manifested by revelation, on which faith rests. Hence that the world began to exist is an object of faith, but not of demonstration or science. And it is useful to consider this, lest anyone, presuming to demonstrate what is of faith, should bring forward reasons that are not cogent, so as to give occasion to unbelievers to laugh, thinking that on such grounds we believe things that are of faith.
Linux, if you read Aquinas understanding that he believes in this God, you will find how his God creates such that where there is before nothing, now there is space, time, matter, and us. But it will still be to you “Aquinas’s understanding”. It will not convince you logically, except you will see that it logically flows from Aquinas’s God as that God is known by Aquinas.
You are looking for “The Answer”, but that in itself is a matter of faith on your part, coming to a point of deciding you are going to run with a certain understanding. Personally, I’m running with the God of Thomas, and find life totally delightful, and understandable with Him.

John Martin
Thats fine John. But i don’t see how that really helps. If you are interested in seeking an answer that suits you, but not really interested in how it is logically possible, i can’t see how that bennefits belorg.
 
Out of nothing comes nothing. I think belorg wants to know how God can create something from nothing.
By ‘how’ I do not ask for any sort of detailed process, just some kind of explanation how it could be possible will do fine.
After all, if Thomists claim to have found the ultimate anwer to the basic cosmological question how it is possible that the universe (and by that I mean everything that is not God) exists, this should be quite easy. Yet, I have discussed this counless times on this forum as well as others, and nobody has been able to give anything that I can reasonably call an answer.
If you compare this to the demand by theist that atheists explain in detail how the universe came about, then mine is a much more modest request. But if a theist cannot even answer this, I reall acnnot understand how he can claipm to have an answer.
There is nothing wrong in answering, “I don’t know, but I believe in God”,but claiming that God is the ultimate ‘answer’ when He leaves virtually every serious question unanswered seems likes inteleectual hishonesty to me.
 
There was no thing out of which a thing could be made. Out of nothing comes nothing. So how did God create something in the absence of things from which to create.
You are falling into the trap of scientism. Aside from that read over this prior post by John Martin, it is from St Thomas and explains that " nothing " is defined as " no being," or no prior existing matter.
Let’s see how Thomas shows this, explaining what he knows (creation from nothing) by presupposing it rather than concluding from logic:
Whether to create is to make something from nothing?

Objection 1: It would seem that to create is not to make anything from nothing. For Augustine says (Contra Adv. Leg. et Proph. i): “To make concerns what did not exist at all; but to create is to make something by bringing forth something from what was already.”
Objection 2: Further, the nobility of action and of motion is considered from their terms. Action is therefore nobler from good to good, and from being to being, than from nothing to something. But creation appears to be the most noble action, and first among all actions. Therefore it is not from nothing to something, but rather from being to being.
Objection 3: Further, the preposition “from” [ex] imports relation of some cause, and especially of the material cause; as when we say that a statue is made from brass. But “nothing” cannot be the matter of being, nor in any way its cause. Therefore to create is not to make something from nothing.
On the contrary, On the text of Gn. 1, “In the beginning God created,” etc., the gloss has, “To create is to make something from nothing.”
I answer that, As said above (Q[44], A[2]), we must consider not only the emanation of a particular being from a particular agent, but also the emanation of all being from the universal cause, which is God; and this emanation we designate by the name of creation. Now what proceeds by particular emanation, is not presupposed to that emanation; as when a man is generated, he was not before, but man is made from “not-man,” and white from “not-white.” Hence if the emanation of the whole universal being from the first principle be considered, it is impossible that any being should be presupposed before this emanation. For nothing is the same as no being. Therefore as the generation of a man is from the “not-being” which is “not-man,” so creation, which is the emanation of all being, is from the “not-being” which is “nothing.”
Reply to Objection 1: Augustine uses the word creation in an equivocal sense, according as to be created signifies improvement in things; as when we say that a bishop is created. We do not, however, speak of creation in that way here, but as it is described above.
Reply to Objection 2: Changes receive species and dignity, not from the term “wherefrom,” but from the term “whereto.” Therefore a change is more perfect and excellent when the term “whereto” of the change is more noble and excellent, although the term “wherefrom,” corresponding to the term “whereto,” may be more imperfect: thus generation is simply nobler and more excellent than alteration, because the substantial form is nobler than the accidental form; and yet the privation of the substantial form, which is the term “wherefrom” in generation, is more imperfect than the contrary, which is the term “wherefrom” in alteration. Similarly creation is more perfect and excellent than generation and alteration, because the term “whereto” is the whole substance of the thing; whereas what is understood as the term “wherefrom” is simply not-being.
Reply to Objection 3: When anything is said to be made from nothing, this preposition “from” [ex] does not signify the material cause, but only order; as when we say, “from morning comes midday”–i.e. after morning is midday. But we must understand that this preposition “from” [ex] can comprise the negation implied when I say the word “nothing,” or can be included in it. If taken in the first sense, then we affirm the order by stating the relation between what is now and its previous non-existence. But if the negation includes the preposition, then the order is denied, and the sense is, “It is made from nothing—i.e. it is not made from anything”—as if we were to say, “He speaks of nothing,” because he does not speak of anything. And this is verified in both ways, when it is said, that anything is made from nothing. But in the first way this preposition “from” [ex] implies order, as has been said in this reply. In the second sense, it imports the material cause, which is denied. "

John Martin

Linus
 
We know that out of nothing comes nothing. You have not explained how God created something from nothing.
can you give me an example of the type of answer you want; like a template. i don’t know what exactly will satisfy you otherwise.
 
can you give me an example of the type of answer you want; like a template. i don’t know what exactly will satisfy you otherwise.
By ‘how’ I do not ask for any sort of detailed process, just some kind of explanation how it could be possible will do fine.
After all, if Thomists claim to have found the ultimate anwer to the basic cosmological question how it is possible that the universe (and by that I mean everything that is not God) exists, this should be quite easy. Yet, I have discussed this counless times on this forum as well as others, and nobody has been able to give anything that I can reasonably call an answer.
If you compare this to the demand by theist that atheists explain in detail how the universe came about, then mine is a much more modest request. But if a theist cannot even answer this, I reall acnnot understand how he can claipm to have an answer.
There is nothing wrong in answering, “I don’t know, but I believe in God”,but claiming that God is the ultimate ‘answer’ when He leaves virtually every serious question unanswered seems likes inteleectual hishonesty to me.
Belorg, I believe I answered your points of view in my posts yesterday refer posts 218 -224. I would ask you respond to each of my points with any evidence and rational thinking which may counter each of the arguments I have presented .Individually and even more so as a whole such arguments support the truth that God that created the Universe.

Truth,Love and Peace.
 
For the same reason it would be metaphysically impossible for something to pop into existence.
Well, it’s certainly not going to be for the same reason, since the reason it would be impossible for something to pop into existence by itself would be the principle of causality, and the arguments which support the principle of causality, which would not support the principle you’re supposing. On the other hand, books like Krauss’s A Universe from Nothing (in spite of its other flaws) seem to make short work of the idea that everything literally needs to be composed of pre-existing matter.
 
Thats fine John. But i don’t see how that really helps. If you are interested in seeking an answer that suits you, but not really interested in how it is logically possible, i can’t see how that bennefits belorg.
It is logically possible with the God described by Aquinas being the premise of the logical argument. You first say, "Given that the God described by Aquinas is real, all ‘not-God being’ can suddenly ‘Be’ where nothing was." Then, following that premise, you have the explanation of how this God knows, desires, wills, and speaks into reality the temporal and corporeal being of all the universe.

I was under the impression you were speaking for yourself in the exchange with Linus. So, if this should be for belorg, then, Belorg, any positional statement about the way things work has to begin with a statement of the assumptions of that statement. For Aquinas, the “Given” assumption is this God. If your “given” assumption is no God, then you have to provide a logical framework for physical being that works without a God. With the “given” of “no God”, it would likely be impossible for something to “pop” into being (although, with the Big Bang theory, all are trying to postulate how the universe could pop into being at a scientific level, resulting in string theory, et. al.)

While I might find difficulty with the logic of an eternal sequence of causation and of the physical universe, if that satisfies your understanding then that is what gives your life meaning. For me, I move myself to unity with the Prime Mover. I am potentially like Him and will be in Act.

John Martin
 
Well, it’s certainly not going to be for the same reason, since the reason it would be impossible for something to pop into existence by itself would be the principle of causality, and the arguments which support the principle of causality, which would not support the principle you’re supposing.
The problem is that Aquinas argued for Pure Act (God) and act mixed with potentiality (all other entities) but did not establish any sort of causal link between the two. So we have a guy somewhere and a rabbit somewhere else popping into existence. But the question is: what is the causal connection between those two. The only connection we have so far is an assertion.
On the other hand, books like Krauss’s A Universe from Nothing (in spite of its other flaws) seem to make short work of the idea that everything literally needs to be composed of pre-existing matter.
I do not think everything needs to be composed of pre-existing matter, but in order for something to come into existence, there must be a pre-existing condition out of which it can arise. And ‘nothing’ is not such a condition.
 
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