St. Thomas' Motion Argument and Modern Physics

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Please clarify for me the concept of possible worlds you are using. I thought you said wG is the possible world with God alone existing. Did I get that wrong? For example, the present real world is a possible world, and I am in it. So how is it wrong to say a possible world containing God has God “in it”?

Let us understand each other in the first place, before we get to whether either of us has a point. I certainly think I do, and that you don’t get it doesn’t by itself make it not valid; perhaps I have explained it poorly. But first, let us understand what we both mean by possible worlds. That would help a lot, I think.
For starters, a possible world is not an entity, it is a concept, a description of a state of affairs using propositions. The concept wG entails that every positive true proposition is about God and there are no positive true proposition about any other entity. e.g. “God is omniscient” would be a true proposition in wG, but “X is red” is not a true proposition in wG if X is not God. Hence “X is changeable” is not a true proposition in wG, since god is defined as unchangeable and there is no X that is not God. So, wG is not a set of entities.

To say that God is in wG creates the impression that w is an entity. Now, even if that were true, that would mean that at least one entity (w) exists but is not created by God, which contradicts Catholic doctrine.
 
Spheres just happen to be in motion, but it is not spheres that he is concerned with but rather it is the fact of motion itself, and it is this general fact upon which he constructs a metaphysics. If that were not the case then there would be no reason to make the distinction he calls metaphysics, he would just call it physics.
Well, Aristotle himself did not use the word “meta” - remember that his “physics” and “heavens” provided a segue into his “metaphysics” … there may not have an absolute break between all these works.

And with respect to “motion itself”, many have argued that Aristotle was thinking very specifically about the motion of the spheres - because, for him, that was the “universal” motion.

We really need to look at specific passages.

Also, let’s consult Aquinas’ commentary - it may shed some light on this question.
 
There are no contingent essences without esse. Gods essence is his esse; they are synonymous, not composite.
There are no essences at all without esse. Give a counterexample if you disagree.
 
In reality, a thing either exists or does not exist. There are no existing things without essences, nor essences, except of existing things!
Essence conjoined with esse means something actually exists. You are playing a word game here.
Your claim that there is no esse that is not conjoined with an essence is an assertion and impossible since you cannot produce an act of reality out of nothing at all. Its a metaphysical contradiction.
  1. Show me or tell me where I can find an esse not conjoined with an essence. Otherwise, stop asserting they can exist. They can’t. Nothing can exist without being what it is.
  2. God can produce a reality out of nothing at all. It is not a metaphysical contradiction in any sense, it is called Creation. (Creatio ex nihilo.) If you want to assert a metaphysical contradiction, show your work.
Gods essence is identical with esse, they are synonymous. Thus to speak of Gods esse is to speak of his essence. Thus there is an esse that is not a conjoining of esse and essence.
You are attaching too much significance to what are after all only categories of understanding. To “conjoin” an existence to an essence means nothing more or less than to bring a thing into existence, to create it. God is not created, so His existence does not involve this “conjoining” that you talk about. But neither does God have a pile of essences next to a pile of esses, that He “conjoins” in order to create. Esse is NOT an essence in and of itself, it is only the condition of existing. When God creates something, He brings it into existence from nothing. It’s esse is not something added to its essence, as if the two already existed in some metaphysical heap somewhere. Thus it seems that your terminology of “conjoining” of esses and essences has done you dirty, and led you into metaphysical sophistry.
Existence is not a substance, it is a condition of substances.
I said it is a condition of substances. It is contrasted to another possible condition of substances, not existing. Any substance either exists or does not exist. If it exists we can say it has the condition of existing. This is not rocket science.
That an essence is something does not necessitate that esse is identical with it.
That an essence is something necessitates that something has esse.
God is the necessary esse. If His esse were the esse of created things, they all would be necessary as well, and we can see that they are not.
In God, it is necessarily the case that His essence is co-eternal with His esse, since they are identical. In created things, you are correct, they are not eternal. There is neither essence nor esse of any created thing until it is actually created. So its esse begins when it begins.

You are creating confusion, I think, with your attachment to the idea that “Esse” is eternal. Only God’s Esse is eternal. The existence of created things is created.
If esse is identical with an essence like we find in God, then it would be eternal.
That is the unique case.
If they are contingent, they are not necessary, and if they are not necessary, then how can their esse be said to be identical with that of the Necessary Being?
Try to keep your eye on the ball here. No one is saying that essence and esse are conceptually indistinct. But naming different aspects of existing substances does not magically produce new substances. That we name esse and essence differently does not make there come into existence somewhere, even metaphysically, some substance of esse and substance of essence. What we call esse and essence are two aspects of substances, to wit, their existence itself, and what they are. The Law of Identity is simply that whatever is, is what it is. Keep it that simple, and you will avoid the trouble you are getting into here.

Whatever is, is what it is.

That is to say, that whatever has esse, has essence. But do not take this to mean that we are asserting that there is a substance of esse and a substance of essence. These are merely concepts in our understanding; they are not substantial in and of themselves.
 
For starters, a possible world is not an entity, it is a concept, a description of a state of affairs using propositions. The concept wG entails that every positive true proposition is about God and there are no positive true proposition about any other entity. e.g. “God is omniscient” would be a true proposition in wG, but “X is red” is not a true proposition in wG if X is not God. Hence “X is changeable” is not a true proposition in wG, since god is defined as unchangeable and there is no X that is not God. So, wG is not a set of entities.
How is God not an entity?
To say that God is in wG creates the impression that w is an entity.
I don’t recall ever encountering the term, ‘w,’ until just now. I thought we had defined ‘G’ and ‘wG,’ I don’t recall there being a definition of ‘w’ apart from “a world with,” which is not in itself a complete definition, but only a predicate requiring a subject.

wG is a conceptual entity that contains God and God alone. That doesn’t make w an entity by itself, conceptual or otherwise.

To say that “God is in wG” is to say that there is some possible world wG with God in it. I don’t see where there is a problem with that.
Now, even if that were true, that would mean that at least one entity (w) exists but is not created by God, which contradicts Catholic doctrine.
I don’t get how you are deriving the entityhood of w by itself. Predicates do not exist without subjects.
 
How is God not an entity?
God is an entity. I have never claimed he wasn’t.
It’s your position that entails this, Love4all, so i am glad you realize how incoherent it is.

Now , can i expect any sort of argument from you? Because up till now you haven’t even touched my argument.

So, for the time being, there is nothing more to discus.
[/QUOTE]
 
For starters, a possible world is not an entity, it is a concept, a description of a state of affairs using propositions.
Well, I agree, which is part of why I think it’s weird that you say that wG has the same properties as God. God is an entity, and wG is not “a description of a state of affairs using propositions.” Those are two properties that they do not have in common.
The concept wG entails that every positive true proposition is about God and there are no positive true proposition about any other entity. e.g. “God is omniscient” would be a true proposition in wG, but “X is red” is not a true proposition in wG if X is not God. Hence “X is changeable” is not a true proposition in wG, since god is defined as unchangeable and there is no X that is not God. So, wG is not a set of entities.
Fine, but even though “∀x(X is not changeable)” is true in wG, it does not follow that God cannot create anything, because creating things does not (intrinsically) change God. All this would show is that no object (or, at least, no previously-existing object) is changed by the act of creation.

Sure, in a common way of speaking the world would be changed. But as you say, the world is not an object.
 
Well, I agree, which is part of why I think it’s weird that you say that wG has the same properties as God. God is an entity, and wG is not “a description of a state of affairs using propositions.” Those are two properties that they do not have in common.
A possible world is merely a way of looking at reality, it is not another form of reality, so wG does not really have different properties. Neither G not wG have the property of being changeable.
 
This post is especially targeted to Belorg, Linux and any other atheists.

Why science cannot explain why anything at all exists

Selected extract from the article in the link hereunder follows:

"Firstly, the question “why is there something rather than nothing?” is equivalent to the question “why does anything at all exist?”. However, Krauss et al have decided to creatively redefine nothing (with no mandate from science – more on that in a later post) so that the question becomes more like “why is there a universe rather than a quantum space time foam?”. So I’ll focus on the second formulation, since it is immune to such equivocations.
Here is my argument.
A: The state of physics at any time can be (roughly) summarised by three things.
  1. A statement about what the fundamental constituents of physical reality are and what their properties are.
  2. A set of mathematical equations describing how these entities change, move, interact and rearrange.
  3. A compilation of experimental and observational data.
In short, the stuff, the laws and the data.

B: None of these, and no combination of these, can answer the question “why does anything at all exist?”.

C: Thus physics cannot answer the question “why does anything at all exist?”.

Let’s have a closer look at the premises. I’m echoing here the argument of David Albert in his review of Krauss’ book, which I thoroughly recommend. Albert says,

[W]hat the fundamental laws of nature are about, and all the fundamental laws of nature are about, and all there is for the fundamental laws of nature to be about, insofar as physics has ever been able to imagine, is how that elementary stuff is arranged."

The subject matter of this thread is “St. Thomas Motion Argument and Modern Physics”

Now the point I wish to make is that posts to this thread when discussing the origin of motion in a physical sense should do so in accordance with the highlighted “A” above. But this has not been the case at all.

The atheists have presented more or less ‘one liners’ with little, if any of the three things stated in the highlighted section above. IMO the atheist position appears to be nothing more than speculative ideas or perhaps beliefs without any physics being presented.

The atheists should confine their comments to St. Thomas’s statement on motion which he uses as one of five ways to prove the existence of God and modern physics as defined above.Indeed this whole thread has not for the main part addressed the “fit in” and relationship between the two as requested by the originator of this thread.

Pity!!!

letterstonature.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/why-science-cannot-explain-why-anything-exists/
 
Belorg,Linux and any others. If you disagree with this post i would appreciate a reasoned response why you disagree and secondly what your defined position is.

acceptingabundance.com/unmoved-mover-for-unmoved-doubters/

Unmoved Mover for Unmoved Doubters

Extracts follow. If replying please read the whole article. It would seem reasonable to me that anyone who believes that the proofs are in error would need to prove both the error AND what is posited to be correct or in lieu of the claimed error. I look forward to reasoned comments .

"The Proofs

Everything that is moved is moved by another. Proved in three ways:
  1. Whatever is moved is divisible (Aristotle Physics VI, 4). Moving things must be divisible, must have parts. Why? Because to be moving or changing, the same thing cannot be both unchanged and changed all at once. Aristotle wrote this before we knew of atomic structure, but consider what we’ve learned since. Everything that has been discovered is further broken into parts, and is constantly changing. If you move your arm, it is moved by both arm muscles and other muscles, which are moved by muscle cells and other cells, which are moved by molecules, which are moved by atoms, which are moved by atomic particles, et cetera.
So, for something not to be moved by another thing, the moving thing would have to primarily move itself, be moved by reason of itself, not by reason of a part of itself. It would have to be, as a whole, at rest, and then, as a whole, move. If a part were at rest the whole would be at rest, because there would be no parts. Since moving things must logically have parts, this is a logical impossibility.

This is called a conditional proposition. St. Thomas gave the example, “If man is an ***, he is irrational.” Man cannot be an *** (stop snickering, he means the animal), nor can he be irrational (possessing an irrational soul), but if he were an *** he would necessarily also be irrational.
  1. Whatever is moved by accident is not moved by itself (Aristotle Physics VIII, 4). “Accident” means a property or quality not essential to a thing. To be moved by violence, means to be moved unnaturally by another. So things that are not animals that move (rocks) must be moved by another, since the movement is by accident. This is a proof by induction.
  2. And to return to divisibility, since things that move are divisible, the same thing cannot be both action and potential (Aristotle Physics VIII, 5). Thus nothing can be both mover and moved, and therefore, nothing moves itself. Logically impossible.
In movers and things moved one cannot proceed to infinity. Proved in three ways:
  1. If all movers and things moved proceed to infinity, then there is no succession. All infinities move together. If one of them is finite, i.e. moved in a finite time, then all the infinites are moved in finite time. This is impossible. The mover and the thing moved must exist simultaneously, which would mean all things move as one single mobile, and one infinite is moved in finite time, which is, again, logically impossible (Aristotle Physics VII, 1).
  2. Or, in an ordered series of movers and things moved in succession (a series where one thing is moved by another), but a succession that proceeds to infinity, there still must be identified a first mover. Why? Because if there is no first mover, there is no thing moved. If the first mover is removed, or ceases to move, no other mover will move or be moved. The first mover is the cause of motion for all the others. There can be no infinite series of intermediate movers, it is a logical impossibility.
  3. Or, reverse the order. That which is moved cannot move unless there is a principal moving cause. Nothing will be moved."
Truth, Love and Peace
 
This post is directed to Linux.

Linux, i repeat a number of your posts (in part) to highlight your opinions on the cause of motion.
Linux posts stating his position follow:

"No 226 There was no thing out of which a thing could be made. Out of nothing comes nothing. So how did God create something in the absence of things from which to create.

Anwser: we do not know HOW God created everything. NOBODY KNOWS in reality HOW motion or the universe came to be. Catholics KNOW that God created the universe (without knowing how) because Catholics (and some other religions) believe God is, always was and always will be. We believe. We believe this because this has been revealed by God first to his Chosen people and subsequently by the Son of God, Jesus Christ. God does not change and never has because he was,is and always will be perfect in all respects and in every way.

Now from a mortal man’s viewpoint especially a non believer in God i can well understand the difficulty you and people of your ilk have with this reality. Because you do not believe in God ( or so it seems) you have no alternative other than to suggest that there must have been " nothing from nothing" or " pre-existing materials" to kick off motion in the first instance.
Well let us see the evidence Linux to back up your opinion.

This thread is not about the existence of God. That would generate Theological Proofs of God’s existence. Note that theology is a science.

No 227 We know that out of nothing comes nothing. You have not explained how God created something from nothing.

Answer. Same as above.

Can you please provide proof or evidence that “We know that out of something comes nothing”? You make the statement, please back it up with some hard evidence and not with just ‘one liners’.

No 229 God cannot do the logically impossible. And asserting that he can do what is generally understood to be impossible just becuase he is God does not help the discussion or belorgs understanding. Out of nothing comes nothing, so why should anyone think that God can create without using materials or a part of himself?

Answer. The point is that God can do the logically impossible and has done so repeatedly over the ages. Proof needed? Read the sacred scriptures, the miracles recorded in the old and new testaments, the lives of the saints and the miracles attributed to them, the miracle cures at Lourdes, the prophecies recorded in both the old and new testaments which were Actually fulfilled within the same day, days, weeks, month , years, or centuries. God "can create without using preexisting materials or apart of himself’. Evidence needed? For example Jesus christ, the Son of god created sufficient loaves and fishes to feed 5000 men excluding women and children from a few fishes and loaves of bread. Jesus Christ performed the same miracle subsequently except the 2nd. time to 4000 men.

No 242
Originally Posted by John Martin
You first say, “Given that the God described by Aquinas is real, all ‘not-God being’ can suddenly ‘Be’ where nothing was.” Then, following that premise, you have the explanation of how this God knows, desires, wills, and speaks into reality the temporal and corporeal being of all the universe.
But this assumes the existence of God, and then it also assumes that God can do what is generally thought to be imposssible.

Answer. Precisely!

No 243
Aquinas is talking about the logical order in which one speaks of God creating something from nothing. He is not talking about whehther it is logically possible for God to create something from nothing. He explains that nothing is not the material cuase of something. None of this is answering the question of how it is logically possible for God to create something where there was nothing without any materials. That has not been adressed, only avoided with straw-men as i said before.

Answer. Aquinas is putting a case for proving the existence of God -no more no less. motion is only one of 5 ways St. Thomas uses to prove the existence of God. Linux, you seem to think that God must be logical or act in a way which we humans consider logical. God is not answerable to anyone and certainly not to the creatures he created. incidentally i can think of many people in the world today that do not act logically.

God is the creator does not have to explain anything to the creatures he created except that which he wishes to reveal to us and this he has done first in words and deeds to those recipients of such words and deeds and any witnesses who subsequently told others(family, friends, communities) what they had seen and/or heard. Thereafter the words and deeds were put to writing.

No 246
Originally Posted by John Martin
Here is Thomas’ answer, but you will need to understand God “knowing”, his Intellect, his Will, and his Being, to understand it. You have to put on Thomas’ shoes and see who and what this God is that he has as his premise:
“Now it is manifest that God causes things by His intellect, since His being is His act of understanding; and hence His knowledge must be the cause of things, in so far as His will is joined to it.”
Here is the link: ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.FP_Q14_A8.html

Point. God created everything by his will. God willed the universe into existence.

Continued over
 
continued- addressed to Linux.

John Martin
This again, without further modification, still doesn’t explain how one can logically get something from nothing. It merely describes the supposed source of contingent things, not how it is logically possible for God to create contingent beings without pre-existing materials.
No 253 Out of nothing comes nothing. How does one turn the absence of things in to something without pre-existing materials? To do so would be to contradict the absolute distinction between existence and nothing.

No 259

God created the universe when there was nothing other than God.There was no space, no time ,just nothing.God willed the universe into existence.

I know what nothing is and I have not contradicted your definition. Out of nothing comes nothing. How is it logically possible for God to will the universe into existence if there is no pre-existing materials out of which he can create. How does this not contradict the absolute distinction between being and nothing."

Question. Can you lease tell us what you " what nothing is. “. according to my dictionary
" nothing” means no thing, not anything. Have you a different widely accepted definition?

Why do you presume that \God needs pre -existing materials to create? Just because it may not be logical to you does not mean it cannot be true. there are many things in life which are not logical yet we accept them. Is that not true?

Truth, Love and Peace
 
This post is especially targeted to Belorg, Linux and any other atheists.

Why science cannot explain why anything at all exists

Selected extract from the article in the link hereunder follows:

"Firstly, the question “why is there something rather than nothing?” is equivalent to the question “why does anything at all exist?”. However, Krauss et al have decided to creatively redefine nothing (with no mandate from science – more on that in a later post) so that the question becomes more like “why is there a universe rather than a quantum space time foam?”. So I’ll focus on the second formulation, since it is immune to such equivocations.
Here is my argument.
A: The state of physics at any time can be (roughly) summarised by three things.
  1. A statement about what the fundamental constituents of physical reality are and what their properties are.
  2. A set of mathematical equations describing how these entities change, move, interact and rearrange.
  3. A compilation of experimental and observational data.
In short, the stuff, the laws and the data.

B: None of these, and no combination of these, can answer the question “why does anything at all exist?”.

C: Thus physics cannot answer the question “why does anything at all exist?”.

Let’s have a closer look at the premises. I’m echoing here the argument of David Albert in his review of Krauss’ book, which I thoroughly recommend. Albert says,

[W]hat the fundamental laws of nature are about, and all the fundamental laws of nature are about, and all there is for the fundamental laws of nature to be about, insofar as physics has ever been able to imagine, is how that elementary stuff is arranged."

The subject matter of this thread is “St. Thomas Motion Argument and Modern Physics”

Now the point I wish to make is that posts to this thread when discussing the origin of motion in a physical sense should do so in accordance with the highlighted “A” above. But this has not been the case at all.

The atheists have presented more or less ‘one liners’ with little, if any of the three things stated in the highlighted section above. IMO the atheist position appears to be nothing more than speculative ideas or perhaps beliefs without any physics being presented.

The atheists should confine their comments to St. Thomas’s statement on motion which he uses as one of five ways to prove the existence of God and modern physics as defined above.Indeed this whole thread has not for the main part addressed the “fit in” and relationship between the two as requested by the originator of this thread.

Pity!!!

letterstonature.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/why-science-cannot-explain-why-anything-exists/
The point is that while it is true that modern physics cannot explain why anything at all exists, it is also true that Aquinas did not explain this, at least not in his motion argument… Even if it were true that the exsitence of moving entities requires an unmoved mover, it does not explain why there is an unmoved mover instead of nothing at all.
So, if we confine ourselves to the question whether modern physics has refuted Aquinas motion argument, the answer is that at least on some interpretations of physics, things do move without being caused to do so. So, while I agree that it has not been proven that this interpretation is correct, it has most certainly cats some doubt upon the notion that ‘nothing can move itself’ and as we learn from the Logical porblem of Evil, where the little doubt that e.g; Plantinga was able to produce lead to a widespread “Hallelujah, the Problem of Evil has been refuted”, the little doubt expressed by one interpretation of physics could lead us atheist to shout “Hallelujah, Aquinas’ Motion Argument has been refuted”.
But, atheists are generally more modest.

BTW, I do not think Linux is an atheist.
 
BELORG
Regular Member

Join Date: March 30, 2011
Posts: 1,333
Religion: atheist
Re: St. Thomas’ Motion Argument and Modern Physics

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleve
Theists don’t say that matter can’t come into existence. They just say that there needs to be some cause for it to do so.
If matter can come ibnto existence from nothing, then ‘nothing’ has the potential to become matter, and this potential is uncaused, which contradicts the Catholic doctrine that God is the cause of everything.
Linus is trying to get around this by claiming that potentiality does not exist, but there clearly is a diffrence between complete nothingness and potentiality, so pptnetiality is something, hence in a way it exists.

Quote:
Ex nihilo nihilo fit is not the doctrine that everything has to be made out of some pre-existing matter. It’s the doctrine that there has to be something in existence before there can be anything else.
The problem is that under Thomism there is no logical connection between the something in existence (God) and the other things that come into existence."

Answer/questions follow:

“If matter can come ibnto existence from nothing”

Matter does not come from nothing. We Catholics do not believe that. We do not KNOW HOW motion came to be or HOW the universe Came to be and neither does any one else except you and your fellow atheists it seems.

Can you please evidence (scientifically) that matter comes from nothing.

Remember nothing is defined as "NO THING. NOT ANYTHING?

“It’s the doctrine that there has to be something in existence before there can be anything else.”
Answer. Precisely! God existed ( is eternal) when there was no thing, not anything at the instant of creation. This has been proved scientifically by the science of Theology.This thread is not about proving God’s existence. if it were a whole lot more and different information would be pertinent.

“The problem is that under Thomism there is no logical connection between the something in existence (God) and the other things that come into existence.”

That depends on what you believe. St. Thomas believed in God. He did see the logical connection between Cod and creation ( please read all of St Thomas’s Pars 1). Catholic doctrine confirms the logical connection between God and creation and in particular between God and man. of course , If one does not believe in God then one cannot obviously see any such connection.

Truth, Love and Peace
 
Questions to Belorg

Copy of one of your posts follow:

Originally Posted by Linusthe2nd
From a logical perspective that would seem to limit your choices. If the universe did not create itself and it was not created by the First Uncaused and Moveable Cause as Thomas argued then it would seem that the only choice left for you is an eternally, existing, uncaused universe. If there is one or more choices left I don’t see them.

You do realize that Thomas’ arguments assumed an eternally existing universe don’t you? He based his arguments on an eternally existing universe because he was arguing against the Greeks who believed the universe was eternal.
Yes, I know that Thomas’ arguments assumed an eternally existing universe. So do I.

Quote:
If you cannot explain how an eternally existing universe could be uncaused, you have no reason for your choice other than you would just prefer that it had no cause. In other words an act of negative faith.
I can explain how an eternally existing univrese could be uncaused. The same way an allegedly eternal God could be uncaused.

Question. " You do realize that Thomas’ arguments assumed an eternally existing universe don’t you? He based his arguments on an eternally existing universe because he was arguing against the Greeks who believed the universe was eternal.
Yes, I know that Thomas’ arguments assumed an eternally existing universe. So do I"

Can you please point out to me (chapter and verse) where St Thomas arguments “assumed and eternally existing universe”? I cannot find them.Indeed your assertion IMO runs contrary to what he did say in his 5 ways and elsewhere. St Thomas did state that God is eternal but i do not recall him ever arguing that the universe is eternal. St Thomas
upheld the doctrine of the Church and nowhere does such doctrine say or imply that the universe is eternal. In fact the doctrine of the Church clearly states that God created “heaven and earth”.

Question:
“I can explain how an eternally existing univrese could be uncaused. The same way an allegedly eternal God could be uncaused.”

Belorg, I accept your offer to explain “how an eternally existing universe could be uncaused.” Such an explanation should stand on its own feet so to speak. You make the statement , now back it up.

Since you do not believe in God you do not have any knowledge of God nor authority to put a position about God let alone discuss God. Several posters have tried to get you to understand that God is indeed uncaused, he is eternal and that has been proved scientifically by a branch of science called theology. We Catholics do not understand the mystery of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit - 3 divine persons and one Godhead)
but that is precisely what we do believe as he has revealed to us.

Truth, Love and Peace
 
belorg - one of your previous posts quoted hereunder and my response follows thereafter.

I didn’t take it that’s what he/she stated, just that not everything has to be made out of already existing matter. I take it that the reference is to something like virtual particles that under some interpretations can “pop in to” existence. Still requires the quantum vacuum as a precondition though.

As for God, under the theistic view he is something. So even then it wouldn’t mean that something came into existence from nothing.
The quantum vacuum is a condition out of which VP can “pop into existence”. If this hapens, the quantuim vacuum changes. God is not a condition out of which things can pop into existence."

:

Belorg, my response.

I am not aware that such experiments have proved anything or has led to
a valid prediction by the vast majority of scientists. If this were
otherwise we would all know about it and the world would undoubtedly be
different.

The following article debunks the whole concept.

Perhaps you could provide scientific proof/evidence the popping out/disappearance of
particles from and into nothing resolves all the conflicting positions on
the origin of motion.

lynnemctaggart.com/blog/165-making-something-out-of-nothing

MAKING SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING

I¹m continuing to follow the ongoing and now very heated debate about
religion and atheism, and was shocked to hear that in a debate last week
Richard Dawkins defended his views against those of Dr. Rowan Williams,
the Archbishop of Canterbury, by maintaining that what all religious
people have the most trouble accepting is the idea that the universe –
and therefore all of life – came from nothing.

This argument is simply scientific illiteracy. As any high school student
of physics is taught, nothing comes from nothing.

Ever-present energy

There are several reasons for this. The first, accepted as a basic tenet
of physics, has to do with the laws of conservation of mass and energy:
that the universe is made of energy and that energy can get neither
created or destroyed: it simply changes form.

The only universe that could come out of nothing is a universe without
any energy at all.

The second point is that there is no nothing. Quantum mechanics has long
demonstrated that there is no such thing as a vacuum, or nothing. What we
tend to think of as a sheer void if all of space were tipped out and
emptied of matter and energy, and you examined even the space between the
stars is, in subatomic terms, a hive of activity.

Fleeting presence
What we believe to be our stable, static universe is in fact a seething
maelstrom of subatomic particles fleetingly popping in and out of
existence. The uncertainty principle developed by Werner Heisenberg, one
of the chief architects of quantum theory, implies that no particle ever
stays completely at rest but is constantly in motion due to a ground
state field of energy constantly interacting with all subatomic matter

It means that the basic substructure of the universe is a sea of quantum
fields that cannot be eliminated by any known laws of physics.

Again, we know because of Einstein¹s famous equation E=mc2 that all
elementary particles interact with each other by exchanging energy
through other quantum particles, which are believed to appear out of
nowhere, combining and annihilating each other in less than an instant,
causing random fluctuations of energy without any apparent cause.

The fleeting particles generated during this brief moment, known as
Œvirtual particles,¹ differ from real particles because they only exist
during that exchange – the time of Œuncertainty.¹
Even in temperatures of absolute zero, the lowest possible energy state,
where all matter has been removed and nothing is supposed left to make
motion.

This ŒZero Point¹ energy is the energy present in the emptiest state of
space at the lowest possible energy, out of which no more energy could be
removed – the closest that motion of subatomic matter ever gets to zero.

Because of the uncertainty principle, there will always be some residual
jiggling due to this virtual particle exchange.

Subtracting God
This movement has always been largely discounted because it is ever
present. In physics equations, most physicists subtract troublesome
Zero-Point energy away – a process called Œrenormalization¹ – because it
messes up their equations. Once you get rid of the mathematical
representation of this residual jigging, you tidy up your equation.

As I have always maintained, subtracting out the Zero Point Field is a
little like subtracting out God. It isn¹t the annoying leftover, like
some endless remainder in long division – it¹s the entire point of the
story.

Ironically, the only universe that came completely out of nothing would
have to be completely flat. And indeed there is a hypothesis about a
zero-energy universe.
I chuckle at this and am reminded of British Dr. Stephen Davies, one of
the early nutritional medical pioneer, who in the 1980s proposed that
bodies were biochemically individual and that individual deficiencies in
certain nutrients led to illness.

Naturally, he was attacked as a heretic. He liked to refer to his more
orthodox opponents, in their stubborn belief that nutritional status had
nothing to do with illness, as Œflat earthers.¹ They, too, believed that
something came out of nothing.

The ancient Greek cosmologists and philosophers understood that nothing
comes from nothing – as did Rodgers and Hammerstein. As Captain Von Trapp
reminds Maria in The Sound of Music, ŒNothing comes from nothing, nothing
ever could."

Belorg, may i have your reasoned, logical response?
 
belorg.

Belorg, IMO you are flip flopping all over the place.

In so many of your posts you say you know that something such as a an unstable pre -existing condition must have created the universe or initiated motion and now you seem to be changing your tune when you state " The point is that while it is true that modern physics cannot explain why anything at all exists." If not can you please clarify? it is important to be consistent in this debate and if one is to change their position they should say so and why don’t you think?

Most,if not all of the theists who posted to this thread repeatedly stated that St. Thomas
concept of motion was only one of 5 ways he argued for the Existence of God.(and not for the origin of motion.) St. Thomas’s Summa does attempt to explain ( rather well IMO) WHY God created and especially mankind.

The reason WHY there is an unmoved mover ( God) is explained very thoroughly and in an easy to read fashion in many documents published by the Catholic Church such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2nd edition and the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church which are available free of charge on the internet.

Question: Please provide such interpretations as stated “he answer is that at least on some interpretations of physics, things do move without being caused to do so” . Do such interpretations conflict with the vast majority of physicists who argue a different position posited by you? Please refer to my earlier post of today which argues the case against particles popping from nothing.Do you agree with your "some other interpretations’?. Whether “yes” or “no” what is the basis of your response?

Question:"and as we learn from the Logical porblem of Evil, where the little doubt that e.g; Plantinga was able to produce lead to a widespread “Hallelujah, the Problem of Evil has been refuted”, the little doubt expressed by one interpretation of physics could lead us atheist to shout “Hallelujah, Aquinas’ Motion Argument has been refuted”.

Are saying there is very little doubt that such interpretation is true ? I take it you are expressing some cynicism here.Am i correct?

"The point is that while it is true that modern physics cannot explain why anything at all exists, it is also true that Aquinas did not explain this, at least not in his motion argument… Even if it were true that the exsitence of moving entities requires an unmoved mover, it does not explain why there is an unmoved mover instead of nothing at all.
So, if we confine ourselves to the question whether modern physics has refuted Aquinas motion argument, the answer is that at least on some interpretations of physics, things do move without being caused to do so. So, while I agree that it has not been proven that this interpretation is correct, it has most certainly cats some doubt upon the notion that ‘nothing can move itself’ and as we learn from the Logical porblem of Evil, where the little doubt that e.g; Plantinga was able to produce lead to a widespread “Hallelujah, the Problem of Evil has been refuted”, the little doubt expressed by one interpretation of physics could lead us atheist to shout “Hallelujah, Aquinas’ Motion Argument has been refuted”.
But, atheists are generally more modest.

BTW, I do not think Linux is an atheist."
 
belorg - one of your previous posts quoted hereunder and my response follows thereafter.

:

Belorg, my response.

I am not aware that such experiments have proved anything or has led to
a valid prediction by the vast majority of scientists. If this were
otherwise we would all know about it and the world would undoubtedly be
different.

The following article debunks the whole concept.

Perhaps you could provide scientific proof/evidence the popping out/disappearance of
particles from and into nothing resolves all the conflicting positions on
the origin of motion.

lynnemctaggart.com/blog/165-making-something-out-of-nothing

MAKING SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING

I¹m continuing to follow the ongoing and now very heated debate about
religion and atheism, and was shocked to hear that in a debate last week
Richard Dawkins defended his views against those of Dr. Rowan Williams,
the Archbishop of Canterbury, by maintaining that what all religious
people have the most trouble accepting is the idea that the universe –
and therefore all of life – came from nothing.

This argument is simply scientific illiteracy. As any high school student
of physics is taught, nothing comes from nothing.

Ever-present energy

There are several reasons for this. The first, accepted as a basic tenet
of physics, has to do with the laws of conservation of mass and energy:
that the universe is made of energy and that energy can get neither
created or destroyed: it simply changes form.

The only universe that could come out of nothing is a universe without
any energy at all.

The second point is that there is no nothing. Quantum mechanics has long
demonstrated that there is no such thing as a vacuum, or nothing. What we
tend to think of as a sheer void if all of space were tipped out and
emptied of matter and energy, and you examined even the space between the
stars is, in subatomic terms, a hive of activity.

Fleeting presence
What we believe to be our stable, static universe is in fact a seething
maelstrom of subatomic particles fleetingly popping in and out of
existence. The uncertainty principle developed by Werner Heisenberg, one
of the chief architects of quantum theory, implies that no particle ever
stays completely at rest but is constantly in motion due to a ground
state field of energy constantly interacting with all subatomic matter

It means that the basic substructure of the universe is a sea of quantum
fields that cannot be eliminated by any known laws of physics.

Again, we know because of Einstein¹s famous equation E=mc2 that all
elementary particles interact with each other by exchanging energy
through other quantum particles, which are believed to appear out of
nowhere, combining and annihilating each other in less than an instant,
causing random fluctuations of energy without any apparent cause.

The fleeting particles generated during this brief moment, known as
Œvirtual particles,¹ differ from real particles because they only exist
during that exchange – the time of Œuncertainty.¹
Even in temperatures of absolute zero, the lowest possible energy state,
where all matter has been removed and nothing is supposed left to make
motion.

This ŒZero Point¹ energy is the energy present in the emptiest state of
space at the lowest possible energy, out of which no more energy could be
removed – the closest that motion of subatomic matter ever gets to zero.

Because of the uncertainty principle, there will always be some residual
jiggling due to this virtual particle exchange.

Subtracting God
This movement has always been largely discounted because it is ever
present. In physics equations, most physicists subtract troublesome
Zero-Point energy away – a process called Œrenormalization¹ – because it
messes up their equations. Once you get rid of the mathematical
representation of this residual jigging, you tidy up your equation.

As I have always maintained, subtracting out the Zero Point Field is a
little like subtracting out God. It isn¹t the annoying leftover, like
some endless remainder in long division – it¹s the entire point of the
story.

Ironically, the only universe that came completely out of nothing would
have to be completely flat. And indeed there is a hypothesis about a
zero-energy universe.
I chuckle at this and am reminded of British Dr. Stephen Davies, one of
the early nutritional medical pioneer, who in the 1980s proposed that
bodies were biochemically individual and that individual deficiencies in
certain nutrients led to illness.

Naturally, he was attacked as a heretic. He liked to refer to his more
orthodox opponents, in their stubborn belief that nutritional status had
nothing to do with illness, as Œflat earthers.¹ They, too, believed that
something came out of nothing.

The ancient Greek cosmologists and philosophers understood that nothing
comes from nothing – as did Rodgers and Hammerstein. As Captain Von Trapp
reminds Maria in The Sound of Music, ŒNothing comes from nothing, nothing
ever could."

Belorg, may i have your reasoned, logical response?
Yes, I do. Nothing in your quote above in any sort of way threatens my position.I do not believe that something can come from nothing and that’s why I do not believe that any entity can create something from nothing.
 
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