St. William of Norwich and St. Simon of Trent

[LoyalViews]

There is St. William of Norwich, and St. Simon of Trent; two child saints. On Wikipedia, the articles on the two say (under their name on the side), “Cult Suppressed” what does this mean? And also, in the section where it says “Venerated By”, it says the Roman Catholic Church (formally). Does this mean that they are de-Canonized, or just not on the Calendar.
Can you even de-Canonize a person?

 

[Abenadar]

I don’t know, but if I had to guess, I’d say that political correctness has something to do with it, and the sensitivity of certain people.

 

[Shin]

There is St. William of Norwich, and St. Simon of Trent; two child saints. On Wikipedia, the articles on the two say (under their name on the side), “Cult Suppressed” what does this mean? And also, in the section where it says “Venerated By”, it says the Roman Catholic Church (formally). Does this mean that they are de-Canonized, or just not on the Calendar.
Can you even de-Canonize a person?

If a saint is a saint by canonization, I believe the consensus is that is that, and it cannot be undone – though procedures being changed nowadays, some might speculate that is not the case, others say it might well be dogmatic that canonizations are unalterable and certain.

If the saint is considered a saint by popular acclaim only, this is something else, and so, the veneration was never confirmed in such a way that was final.

I don’t know what the cases are with these two individuals, were they canonized or not? One would have to look it up.

Being not prominent on the calendar happens for many reasons. There are after all, many saints for each calendar day.

 

[power_of_heart]

There is St. William of Norwich, and St. Simon of Trent; two child saints. On Wikipedia, the articles on the two say (under their name on the side), “Cult Suppressed” what does this mean? And also, in the section where it says “Venerated By”, it says the Roman Catholic Church (formally). Does this mean that they are de-Canonized, or just not on the Calendar.
Can you even de-Canonize a person?

I’m looking at the Wikipedia articles right now, and I think that the reason they were taken off the calendar is the circumstances of their deaths: in both cases, they disappeared and the authorities apparently blamed the local Jewish communities for it. Taking 20th century history into account, one can understand why the Church would rather not have that emphasized.

They’re not de-canonized: the Church can’t de-canonize a saint! They’re just not on the calendar anymore.

 

[corsair]

I don’t put much trust in the “stuff” found on Wikipedia. Very little control over who can access the files for changes.

You might try New Advent.

 

[Mom2Bruno]

They are still saints. You can’t de-canonize a saint.

After reading William’s entry on New Advent, it does sound like the Church supressed his cult b/c of the accusations against the Norwich Jewry.

newadvent.org/cathen/15635a.htm

Reading about Saint Simon of Trent, it’s another accusation of “ritual murder” against the Jews. Same thing, supress the cult b/c of the accusations.

 

[Shin]

They are still saints. You can’t de-canonize a saint.

After reading William’s entry on New Advent, it does sound like the Church supressed his cult b/c of the accusations against the Norwich Jewry.

newadvent.org/cathen/15635a.htm

Reading about Saint Simon of Trent, it’s another accusation of “ritual murder” against the Jews. Same thing, supress the cult b/c of the accusations.

There has been some recent scholarship on this issue by the famous Prof. Ariel Toaff, who wrote a book called, Pasque de Sangue, which was favorable towards some of these accusations of ritual murder being historically true. It was suppressed swiftly after its publication due to opposition from groups like the ADL, however it can be found by those who look for it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Suppression just means that they have been removed from the Liturgical Calendar, not that they are no longer saints.

I have a book, Little ictorial Lives of the Saints, published in 1925, both St Simon, Infant Martyr, and St William of Norwich are listed on March 24th.

 

[JaMc]

With St. Simon, anyway, I believe the “official” explanation is that there is insufficient evidence regarding his death and martyrdom. Though, given that the suppression of his cult happened at around the time the Church was attempting to improve relations with the Jews, many have speculated that this was the real reason behind its suppression.

 

[ChadS]

There was another site I read about St. Simon of Trent that seemed to cast doubt on the story all together about Simon’s murder. I also believe that there are claims that he was canonized by a Pope, but any documentation to that effect is also missing.

This link has a story about the whole affair: zionism-israel.com/dic/Simon_of_Trent_blood_libel.htm

ChadS

 

[Mom2Bruno]

Shin,

thanks for the information. I am curious about the possible ritual murders, from a purely historic point of view!

 

[chosen_people]

Shin,

thanks for the information. I am curious about the possible ritual murders, from a purely historic point of view!

As everyone knows Jews have to add human blood to all their food or isn’t considered Kosher. However the Talmud teaches that you may not use the blood of another Jew but only the blood of a Christian child of either sex under the age of 12. This is not considered murder as it is written “they are as beasts of burden fit only for slaughter”. The problem of a proper supply is especially acute when a large amount is required at passover for making Matzah. There is also a problem in Israel as we don’t have that many Christians. Luckily, the Rabbi’s have said that Palestinian Arab blood is acceptable and as we are carrying out a daily genocide in which thousands of Palestinians are killed every day - we have an ample supply for the entire Jewish population. The reason you don’t hear more about Jewish ritual murder of gentiles is because the Jews control all the media and power and banks in the world and they have managed to suppress most of this information getting out. Poor St. William and St. Simon are a good example of how this power of suppression is used.
I hope this satisfies your curiosity from a purely historic point of view. For more information you can contact the local Elders of Zion group near you.

 

[AJV]

They’re not de-canonized: the Church can’t de-canonize a saint! They’re just not on the calendar anymore.

The Church can in fact, de-canonize certain saints. How?

Because of the number of names, some of popular saints removed from the calendar, the tendency is to affirm that the Church never de-canonised anyone, their names are just not celebrated universally, etc.

This is true to an extent. Canonizations of the formal sort are in fact, infallible, and most theologians also believed the same about beatifications. But this applies to the formal and solemn definitions/permissions of the Pope. Canonizations have also occurred due to popular acclaim before the process was standardized, and each case would have to be examined to determine the extent to whether infallibility, if any existed in the case, would be present.

Likewise for the beatifications, and here perhaps is where Simon, William, and other similar saints come in. The type of ‘beatification’ granted was a simple confirmation of a public cult i.e. acknowledgment that a public cult was in force - known as the aequipollent beatification - and almost all the theologians held that ‘confirmation of cult’ is by no means infallible and is subject to the rulings of the Church. Since the Congregation of Rites suppressed the public cult of Simon of Trent, it can in fact be taken as a revocation of sorts of the ‘beatification’ and together with the expurgation of his name from the liturgical books, means that unlike many other saints, he is not entitled in any way to , for example, have a Mass said in his honour, not even from the Common of Saints.

 

[LoyalViews]

So are these saints still canonized or not?

 

[AJV]

So are these saints still canonized or not?

What I was trying to say with that horribly long sentence above was that one cannot pay them the honours of saints or blesseds.

Also, the other point, I was trying to make was that they were never canonized or beatified formally by papal decree. A devotion grew up around them, and was authorized - it was made legitimate. Now it has been suppressed.

With regard to a point raised earlier in the thread - no, it was not suggested that the cult was suppressed because of insufficient evidence regarding their death. That was the explanation given earlier later for the removal of saints from the general calendar. There is a difference between the two. The saints removed from the General Calendar are still acknowledged as having a cult. They may appear in calendars of dioceses or religious families. A cult may also be paid in the way of Mass on the day that they are listed in the martyrology. With Simon of Trent, he is removed completely form the liturgical books, and cannot be celebrated in a local calendar, neither is he listed in the martyrology.

 

[LoyalViews]

Okay. So what they are saying here (everyone who posted) is that, they are Saints – yes. But, their cult has been suppressed and removed from the calendar. But, they are still saints nevertheless.

 

[JaMc]

Okay. So what they are saying here (everyone who posted) is that, they are Saints – yes. But, their cult has been suppressed and removed from the calendar. But, they are still saints nevertheless.

Basically, yes. Everyone in Heaven is a saint. Normally, we can’t be 100% sure, but, in some cases, we can, in a sense “prove” someone is in heaven, either through miracles by their intercession, or their martyrdom. At one point, they thought Sts. Simon and William were martyrs. Now, there is insufficient evidence, and their martyrdom may have simply been concocted as an anti-semitic rallying cry.

So, we hope they are saints, and very well may be, we don’t know for sure, thus, the Church has removed them from the Calendar and suppressed their cults.

Essentially, the only way truly to “de-canonize” someone is to take them out of Heaven, and cast them into Hell, and only God would have the power to do something like that.

 

[LoyalViews]

Aha! Now I understand, Okay. Thank You.

Pax Tecum