Stable or Cave?

[pianistclare]

It’s about the way different cultures translate and discern the meaning of the original Koine Greek. They reasoned that since it was place that animals were, that it was a stable. But the Church of the Nativity enshrines a large rock area…likely a cave. In which the animals took shelter. Gospel writers meant what they meant, you can study Koine Greek to get a better “sense” of the language. It’s in later times that people ascribe structures that they themselves are familiar with to such scenes.

 

[GaryTaylor]

According to the definition I read online, grottos are 1) a small picturesque cave,especially an artificial one, in a park or garden.
Or, 2) an indoor structure resembling a cave.

Was the Lourdes grotto hand made? What was there before St. Bernadette dug into spring water?

Divinely some would affirm, but its a similar idea in my mind.

 

[Faith1960]

Until the church pronounces a dogma that there were no animals, I will continue to believe otherwise.

…umm, why is there string in my popcorn?

I don’t know if animals were there or not but I like my two nativities with animals included. Though the outdoor one only has the camels.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It’s about the way different cultures translate and discern the meaning of the original Koine Greek. They reasoned that since it was place that animals were, that it was a stable. But the Church of the Nativity enshrines a large rock area…likely a cave. In which the animals took shelter. Gospel writers meant what they meant, you can study Koine Greek to get a better “sense” of the language. It’s in later times that people ascribe structures that they themselves are familiar with to such scenes.

Right, better perspective.

 

[fred_conty]

Now objected the possibility of it happening in a home…sigh.

In that area around that time, houses were built over a stable, similar to houses today that have a garage built under the house. Sometimes these were carved out of the side of a hill.

So when the bible says that there was no room for them in the Inn which would be the upper part, then they were given the stable below the Inn where the animals were given shelter.

This isn’t absolute but a very real possiblity.

When the Wise men came, the bible says they came into a house which could very likely be the upper part above the stable. Since people vacated the upper part and moved on, then the holy family could have moved into the house.

 

[JamalChristophr]

According to the definition I read online, grottos are 1) a small picturesque cave,especially an artificial one, in a park or garden.
Or, 2) an indoor structure resembling a cave.

Was the Lourdes grotto hand made? What was there before St. Bernadette dug into spring water?

The Lourdes Grotto was a pig sty, funnily enough, or something along those lines; it was not known as a good place…if you go to France and Italy, you will see many limestone cliffs, for example, that recede back into the wall, and so are like little alcoves. The rock is steeply over-hangning and provides something of a roof above. That is the best way I can describe them. They are natural geological formations.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[irenaeuslyons]

In that area around that time, houses were built over a stable, similar to houses today that have a garage built under the house. Sometimes these were carved out of the side of a hill.

So when the bible says that there was no room for them in the Inn which would be the upper part, then they were given the stable below the Inn where the animals were given shelter.

This isn’t absolute but a very real possiblity.

When the Wise men came, the bible says they came into a house which could very likely be the upper part above the stable. Since people vacated the upper part and moved on, then the holy family could have moved into the house.

This is how my mother-in-law grew up in Greece, in the mountains. The animals were downstairs, they slept upstairs.

 

[Liemanova]

When discussing the term “stable” are you referring to “manger”? A Manger is simply an open trough or animal/ livestock feeding vessel.

Merry Christmas!

 

[ClearWater]

A

Until this thread I never heard of a stable in a cave.

 

[JamalChristophr]

Horses and Cows and … Sheep?

Don’t forget the poor little donkeys…hmm what else…an ox or a bull or was it the breath of the cow that warmed the baby Jesus… I’m sure there are more critters…maybe cats and dogs is a stretch.

 

[GEddie]

The “traditional” stable was a cave, now the crypt of Nativity Basilica, Bethlehem, West Bank.

It was common to use natural caves for human needs in Biblical Judaea; they were very common, and construction was expensive.

As there is no real historic controversy over the locale of the Nativity, I’d go with “stable that was a cave”.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[patrick457]

Now objected the possibility of it happening in a home…sigh.

Simple. It could have been a cave used as a stable, over or behind which a house was built.

 

[patrick457]

The “traditional” stable was a cave, now the crypt of Nativity Basilica, Bethlehem, West Bank.

It was common to use natural caves for human needs in Biblical Judaea; they were very common, and construction was expensive.

As there is no real historic controversy over the locale of the Nativity, I’d go with “stable that was a cave”.

ICXC NIKA.

The cave interpretation has some verisimilitude (since people in the Holy Land did use caves for houses or shelter or garages back then), but I think the interpretation really caught on more because of a prophecy in Isaiah 33:16, which in the Greek Septuagint reads: “he will dwell in the high cave of a strong rock.” And this pretty much explains why the cave tradition disappeared in the West: not only did Westerners tend to associate stables with specially-built structures rather than caves, the Hebrew version of Isaiah 33:16 (and St. Jerome’s translation of the Hebrew) does not mention a cave - “the fortifications of rocks shall be his highness” - so there was really no prophecy to fulfill.

P.S. I’m one of those who doubt whether the Church of the Nativity was built on the exact spot, though it may be on the right location (Bethlehem). For one, the early tradition (the Protoevangelium of James and St. Justin Martyr) has it that the cave was supposedly at the outskirts of Bethlehem (as Justin says, ‘nearby’), but the current cave - which once also served as a center of the Tammuz-Adonis cult during the 2nd-3rd centuries, at least according to St. Jerome - is apparently well inside Bethlehem (as Origen says, ‘in’). (Though granted, Justin’s geography was really vague; not to mention that Origen did live in Caesarea - Roman capital of Palestine - for some time.) Really, I think the only sites in the Holy Land associated with Jesus that have a relatively high degree of being the ‘correct’ spots are St. Peter’s house in Capernaum and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Golgotha and Jesus’ tomb) in Jerusalem.

From a past post:

Back then, people usually kept their livestock inside the house to protect them from the weather and from theft. Freestanding barns and stables were very rare. It was very practical too: in the days before central heating, the animals’ body heat helped keep the house warm. Not to mention that if you kept a sheep or a cow, you’d have a ready supply of milk and dung (fuel source). One possible way of keeping the animals was by dividing the house into two storeys: the animals would be at the lower level, while the family’s living quarters would be upstairs. Yes, kind of like a garage, a basement, or a back room.





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http://www.welcometohosanna.com/LIFE_OF_JESUS/JESUS_LIFE_PIX/NAZARETH_VILLAGE_HOME_INT.jpg

 

[Faith1960]

The cave interpretation has some verisimilitude (since people in the Holy Land did use caves for houses or shelter or garages back then), but I think the interpretation really caught on more because of a prophecy in Isaiah 33:16, which in the Greek Septuagint reads: “he will dwell in the high cave of a strong rock.” And this pretty much explains why the cave tradition disappeared in the West: not only did Westerners tend to associate stables with specially-built structures rather than caves, the Hebrew version of Isaiah 33:16 (and St. Jerome’s translation of the Hebrew) does not mention a cave - “the fortifications of rocks shall be his highness” - so there was really no prophecy to fulfill.

P.S. I’m one of those who doubt whether the Church of the Nativity was built on the exact spot, though it may be on the right location (Bethlehem). For one, the early tradition (the Protoevangelium of James and St. Justin Martyr) has it that the cave was supposedly at the outskirts of Bethlehem (as Justin says, ‘nearby’), but the current cave - which once also served as a center of the Tammuz-Adonis cult during the 2nd-3rd centuries, at least according to St. Jerome - is apparently well inside Bethlehem (as Origen says, ‘in’). (Though granted, Justin’s geography was really vague; not to mention that Origen did live in Caesarea - Roman capital of Palestine - for some time.) Really, I think the only sites in the Holy Land associated with Jesus that have a relatively high degree of being the ‘correct’ spots are St. Peter’s house in Capernaum and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre (Golgotha and Jesus’ tomb) in Jerusalem.

From a past post:

Back then, people usually kept their livestock inside the house to protect them from the weather and from theft. Freestanding barns and stables were very rare. It was very practical too: in the days before central heating, the animals’ body heat helped keep the house warm. Not to mention that if you kept a sheep or a cow, you’d have a ready supply of milk and dung (fuel source). One possible way of keeping the animals was by dividing the house into two storeys: the animals would be at the lower level, while the family’s living quarters would be upstairs. Yes, kind of like a garage, a basement, or a back room.

http://willcookson.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/palestinian-house-one.jpg?w=440

http://willcookson.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/palestinian-house-two.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9ohzPgETfxY/TuZiHJ9iGJI/AAAAAAAAAvw/VQ9Dx0DgdZg/s1600/inn+pic+1.jpg

http://www.bible-archaeology.info/Amman4roomhouse.jpg

http://www.welcometohosanna.com/LIFE_OF_JESUS/JESUS_LIFE_PIX/NAZARETH_VILLAGE_HOME_INT.jpg

Does the Church teach that the Church of the Nativity is where Jesus was born?

 

[JamalChristophr]

The Church does not say definitively one way or another. That is not really Her reason for being. But it is more or less held as Catholic tradition that Our Lord was born in this place.

 

[Faith1960]

The Church does not say definitively one way or another. That is not really Her reason for being. But it is more or less held as Catholic tradition that Our Lord was born in this place.

Arent we required to believe Church tradition

 

[patrick457]

Does the Church teach that the Church of the Nativity is where Jesus was born?

There is no Church dogma that says that such-and-such are the exact places where biblical events happened, and that to disbelieve in them is tantamount to heresy. Some of them do have the backing of what we can be fairly sure is a strong tradition and other factors (archaeology, etc.), and thus could very well be the actual places (the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and St. Peter’s house in Capernaum count among these places), but there are other spots where it seems that the people simply engaged in guesswork and pious imagination as we do now (the exact location of Mt. Sinai or the Upper Room or the Via Dolorosa count).

 

[patrick457]

Arent we required to believe Church tradition

The big-T Sacred Tradition, yes. But the identification of sacred places are more in the realm of small-t tradition. That’s why you could have two or more different places that could claim to be, say, the real Mt. Sinai or the room where Jesus held His Last Supper or where the Assumption of Mary took place. The exact location is not important - it is the events which those locations (the actual spots or no) evoke which are more important.

I may not really believe the Church of the Nativity could be the actual spot, but it won’t prevent me from going there and commemorating the birth of the Son of God. Same with the other locations.

 

[Deltadeliquent]

I was under the belief that in ancient times, caves or grottos were often used as what we would call stables.
Beats building something, in time and expense.

 

[patrick457]

Don’t forget the poor little donkeys…hmm what else…an ox or a bull or was it the breath of the cow that warmed the baby Jesus… I’m sure there are more critters…maybe cats and dogs is a stretch.

You know what? The elements in a traditional depiction of the Nativity actually all derive from certain interpretations of Scripture.

The cave, as mentioned, comes from the Greek version of Isaiah 33:16: “He will dwell in the high cave of the strong rock.” The Hebrew and the Vulgate do not mention any cave (hence no prophecy to fulfill), so the cave disappeared in the West, to be replaced by a wooden shack. The ox and the donkey meanwhile, comes from both Isaiah 1:3 (“The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master’s crib”) and the Greek version of Habakkuk 3:2 (“You will be known in the midst of two living creatures/beasts” - this same verse is also used as a prophecy of Good Friday in some traditions). Unlike the cave, the ox and the donkey survived in Western art, if only because of Isaiah.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/9821_-Milano-Sant%27Ambrogio-Sarcofago_di_Stilicone-Foto_Giovanni_Dall%27Orto_25-Apr-2007.jpg/640px-9821-Milano-Sant%27Ambrogio-Sarcofago_di_Stilicone-_Foto_Giovanni_Dall%27Orto_25-Apr-2007.jpg