Stand Your Ground Laws

[CaptainPrudeman]

Also, I don’t think Duty to Retreat would apply to a situation where the retreat was not obvious and could only be found with a Sherlock Holmes search.

What is obvious in court may not be in the moment.

 

[Beryllos]

I don’t understand why debates like this always devolve to “so you’re saying you’d murder a man for [insert petty misunderstanding]?”

It’s because this thread is in the Moral Theology category. Here we discuss and define and discern. We’re looking for the thin line between moral and immoral. Embrace it, or go to some laws and guns forum.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

And in that case, you would more likely than not be found guilty of assault or murder because there was no clear indication that your life was threatened.

The devil is in the details. “Stand your ground” can have a wide range of interpretations. Perhaps we should review the cases in which it has already been applied successfully to get an idea of what that range of interpretation is:

Five ‘Stand Your Ground’ Cases You Should Know About — ProPublica

 

[RWZiller]

Right, but it always leads to a block we can’t pass. There’s a stark dichotomy between asking “Where do you draw the line?” and “Why do you like murder?” For some reason, this issue in particular always devolves to the latter, and it always ends up feeling like a waste of time.

If we wanted to discuss morality, we’d bring in more than just reductio-ad-absurdum.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

The magisterium would not be a good place to look for wisdom on these ownership matters…they after all own an awfully lot of property under the guise of the Church.

We’re discussing this from a Catholic standpoint.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

That’s not your decision, as a layperson, to make.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Oh please, we aren’t free. We’ve only got the semblance of freedom. You think you own your home? Why’s that because the current government allows you to? The magisterium would not be a good place to look for wisdom on these ownership matters…they after all own an awfully lot of property under the guise of the Church. Ownership is a worldly right. What did Christ own? What did he say was the ideal of ownership? Yep thats right, he said if you would be perfect give it all up. Once you become attached to something so much that you would be willing to kill another human being in order to retail it you’ve lost Gods message. Now I’m not judging your opinions here, I can’t say I wouldn’t do the same. After all who among us is perfect? I’m just saying that its clear that God’s message is loss of your property over you taking a life to retain it. Your life is another matter. God given natural instinct is to protect your life or others when possible.

I certainly do object to tax liens creating the possibility of the government taking your home to satisfy those liens. Aside from that, or potentially questions of eminent domain, I for one do own my home free and clear.

And I hear what you are saying, but I would certainly look to the magisterium, to answer the question “may we take human life to preserve property?”. Jone’s Moral Theology, while not the magisterium herself, gives us guidance here:

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[VonDerTann]

What did Christ own? What did he say was the ideal of ownership? Yep thats right, he said if you would be perfect give it all up. Once you become attached to something so much that you would be willing to kill another human being in order to retain it you’ve lost Gods message.

—Well, I’m “attached” to my wife and daughter. And I’m “attached” to the concept of them not being raped if threatened with same. For that matter, what if I am faced with the threat of the loss of something so grave that it’s essentially my whole life if it’s stolen (for example, the communists in Cuba stole whole factories and all land and savings from some folks, many of whom fled with literally nothing but their clothing - it’s absurd to say those folks were “too attached to something.”

This whole “compare everything to Jesus” breaks down on the rocks of “Jesus possessed divine knowledge and foresight, and He also could have at any instant called every angel in heaven to His aid had he wanted to.” Us mere mortals have no such powers; often have to make snap decisions under tremendous pressure; and are often looked to to safeguard others.

 

[ZemD]

when it is clearly possible to retreat without any loss of life, what is the need for a stand your ground law there?

It is a waste of time to debate a hypothetical situation with you when you’ve already concluded it’s “clearly possible to retreat” in your made up situation.

Respectfully, I have no desire to converse with you, based on your posting history. I hope you have a good evening.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

when it is clearly possible to retreat without any loss of life, what is the need for a stand your ground law there?

Respectfully, I have no desire to converse with you, based on your posting history.

My posts are for others to read too. They are not private conversations.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Aside from that, or potentially questions of eminent domain, I for one do own my home free and clear.

I understand where you thoughts are but I maintain that we OWN nothing free and clear. Unless your prepared to put yourself into the precarious position of defending with force (a war you will inevitably lose as been shown time and time again) against the big bad repressive government because they want to take your home for ((name removed by moderator)ut whatever excuse) then you need to get into the mind set that you are only renting your property which is still subject to law (by definition not free to do what you want). Paid off your mortgage? Still owe taxes. No property tax. Eminent domain is always a sword of Democles hanging over your head. Collapse of government? You’ll be fighting for what you have…hardly free and clear. War, natural disaster, or some as yet unknown process may take what you think own free and clear at any time. We don’t own anything free and clear. The only thing we have is time. The time God gives us to have what we have.

Following (not necessarily agreeing with) your reasoning, are there any countries or cultures in the world where people do have inalienable property rights?

As for Jone’s Moral Theology…
Can you tell me what temporal goods of great value are worth more than a humans life? Their temporal for gosh sake. If you kill the human you remove any further chance of redemption in this world. Is that not a travesty of justice itself?

I don’t know if there’s a neat place where you can draw that line. My wallet, probably not. Somebody hijacking an armored bank car at gunpoint? Jone would probably say yes.

 

[Beryllos]

The magisterium would not be a good place to look for wisdom on these ownership matters…they after all own an awfully lot of property under the guise of the Church. Ownership is a worldly right…

I wonder if you are aware of the Church’s teaching on private property. CCC 2401-2404 etc.

There is a principle called Universal Destination of Goods, however, private property may legitimately be held, for good reasons outlined in 2402.

Regardless of what you think of church property, the Magisterium offers true wisdom, and if you disregard the Magisterium, where else do you go?