Standing After the Angnus Dei and While Others Are Receiving Communion

[phatcatholic]

i have some urgent questions regarding the new changes that have taken place in my parish. they include the following:

**1. **our tabernacle is behind the altar. my whole life i have knelt before entering the pew. is this in reverence for the tabernacle or the altar? also, our priest said if we arrive before mass starts, we are to genuflect before entering the pew, but if we arrive after mass starts we should bow instead of kneel. is there anything about the nature of the mass that would require this?

**2. ** also, our cantor now instructs us to face the center aisle during th entrance of the priest. where does this come from? should i do this? after reading the GIRM w/ the US adaptations i find no requirement to face the center aisle during the entrance.

**3. **as for standing after the Agnus Dei, the last sentence (which i have bolded) in the following paragraph from the GIRM seems to be the key phrase:

This adaptation will be inserted at number 43, paragraph 3:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

ok, my whole life i have knelt after the Agnus Dei. but, apparently, the diocesan bishop has determined otherwise, so now we stand. here’s my question tho: does the bishop need the approval of the vatican before he can make this change? if so, has he received this approval? does he have the authority to even propose, let alone demand, that we stand?

**4. **as for standing after receiving communion and until everyone else has received, i have a couple questions over this section from the GIRM:

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

ok, it says that we should stand from the prayer over the offerings until the end of mass, unless indicated below. well, in the next two paragraphs, it doesn’t proscribe a particular posture for right after receiving communion, so would the first paragraph be the support for standing while we wait for others to receive? in the second paragraph, it says “they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.” when does the sacred silence take place? is it as soon as i have received or after everyone has received?

5. what precedence should custom have in these matters? what authority does it possess? it would appear that if the customary posture is still allowed that it should be retained.

6. what should i do? follow custom and kneel during the times in question, or stand so as to maintain unity among the parishoners?

those are all the questions i have so far. thanks for your help

pax christi,
phatcatholic

 

[phatcatholic]

i know there are alot of questions here, but someone PLEASE help me w/ this. i need to know what to do for mass on sunday!!!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Here is what I know. Standing after the Agnus Dei is to be done if thats what the local Bishop decides. I didnt like when it happened where I go, but thats what the Bishop said and the Girm says.

The kneeling is for the Tabernacle, and bowing if you are going infront of the Altar. And you are to genuflect before entering the pew, but Im not sure about the bowing if late part.

I have never heard of the facing center part.

As for what to do after Communion? You are to go back to your seat and sir or kneel until the priest has sat. I have never heard of standing after you receive. The Sacred Silence starts after you go back to your seat until the priest sits and signals to continue with the concluding stuff.

As for custom. It all depends on where you go. Different rites do different things. In the case of doing something because everyone else is doing it… As long as they are not violating something in the Girm then that is how you should approach the situation in general. I think there is a passage somewhere that says people should be doing the same things at the same times.

 

[Elzee]

Catholic Dude:

The kneeling is for the Tabernacle, and bowing if you are going infront of the Altar. And you are to genuflect before entering the pew, but Im not sure about the bowing if late part.

As for what to do after Communion? You are to go back to your seat and sir or kneel until the priest has sat. .

I was always taught to kneel until the consecrated hosts are returned to the tabernacle and the tabernacle is closed - this may be after the priest has sat down after communion (at least in our parish) if the deacon is the one returning the hosts (or, unfortunately, sometimes a EMHC). Once you hear that click of the tabernacle being closed, you hear everyone sit down.

I just read on another thread that the GIRM states we are not supposed to genuflect to the tabernacle once Mass has begun. It was in the context of what lectors should do when they approach the sanctuary to read, so I’m not sure if this rule applies to those just coming in late for Mass or not. Maybe someone else knows something about this detail?

 

[InnocentIII]

Australiagenerally follows the US but some of these things I have never heard of or seen done and I have been in some fairley liberal parishes.

1.

our tabernacle is behind the altar. my whole life i have knelt before entering the pew. is this in reverence for the tabernacle or the altar? also, our priest said if we arrive before mass starts, we are to genuflect before entering the pew, but if we arrive after mass starts we should bow instead of kneel. is there anything about the nature of the mass that would require this?

The Tabernacle, or more precisely Our Lord’s Body contained therein. We genuflect on entering the Church even if late. In most parishes anyone approaching the sanctuary (eg lectors) bow rather than genuflect although our Priest encourages genuflection as our tabernacle is prominently placed in the sanctuary itself.

2.

also, our cantor now instructs us to face the center aisle during th entrance of the priest. where does this come from? should i do this? after reading the GIRM w/ the US adaptations i find no requirement to face the center aisle during the entrance.

Never heard this. Sounds like giving a little too much prominence to the priest.

3. as for standing after the Agnus Dei, the last sentence (which i have bolded) in the following paragraph from the GIRM seems to be the key phrase:

I have NEVER heard or see this nonsense even in the most modernist of parishes. The period after the reception of communion is for private reflection and devotion. Everyone kneels to say whatever prayers they wish and then sits until the priest stands to begin the closing prayers. Most kneel until the priest sits and then sit until he stands but some prefer to sit immediately after they have finished their prayers. I find it hard to see how one can pray silently while standing (although I am sure it is possible) so I can’t really see any reason for it. Has the bishop provided any? Other than conformity to for the sake of parish unity of actions?

 

[Spooky7272]

Our Bishop has determined that we remain standing after receiving Communion. This was changed in our parish, most people used to kneel, and I read that it was up to the Bishop to allow or not allow standing, depending on local custom, not to make a new rule. I HATE standing after Communion, and if you actually DO kneel, our Priest will say something like “Everyone is to remain standing until all have received” and he gets quite huffy about it too.

 

[rcn]

Elzee:

I was always taught to kneel until the consecrated hosts are returned to the tabernacle and the tabernacle is closed

This is the local custom in my present parish - however I don’t believe anyone has ever “taught” it. One aspect of this that I do not understand, is that after receiving the altar boys return to their seats… and then at the moment that the tabernacle is to be closed, they leap from their seats and kneel down. I need to ask our priest why they do this - it’s probably one of those things that has no explanation… someone just started to do it one day, and everyone followed his lead. After all, the consecrated host is present from the moment of consecraton onwards - the closing of the tabernacle door is not a magic moment in any way.

In the parish and indeed in the diocese where I grew up, people remained standing after the “Lamb of God”, and after communion people kneel for awhile and then sit back down at their preference. (None of the robotic “everyone sits when the tabernacle closes” stuff.) I visited that area recently and those are still the practices. And believe me, no one would ever accuse those folks of any lack of reverence.

 

[axolotl]

In my diocese, we remain standing after communion until all have received. You may sit or kneel instead due to age, infirmity, or personal piety. Those who choose to exercise the indult to kneel are not be ridiculed for their choice.

Okay, I’ve found my references:

dioceseofcleveland.org/parishlife/GIRM_8.htm

---

*And so — all of us who are able — are directed to stand from the Lord’s Prayer until the period of sacred silence which begins only after the priest returns to his chair after all have received Holy Communion. If an individual is not able (because of age or health or personal piety), then he or she may kneel or sit immediately after his or her individual reception of Holy Communion *** (*GIRM, *43, 88 and CDWDS, Prot. N. 855/03/L).

dioceseofcleveland.org/p…lementation.htm

Unhappily, some have reported to us that there are some pastors and other parish leaders who insist on insisting that the faithful do liturgical actions that are not prescribed by the GIRM, the Bishop, or the OPL. We urge great sensitivity in detailing what is in fact prescribed (bowing of the head before the reception of Holy Communion), what is suggested by the OPL (the orans

at the Lord’s Prayer as an alternative to holding hands at this prayer) and what is normative with a Vatican indult (standing during the Communion Rite is normative for the whole Church, but the indult permits an individual to choose to kneel or sit immediately after receiving Holy Communion. This decision or the person exercising this right, should not be belittled). We are engaged in people’s faith lives, their religious sensibilities, as well as their training and traditions. Simply telling people that they have to grow up and get on with their lives is highly inappropriate. We know you know this, but it bears repeating nonetheless.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

phatcatholic:

i have some urgent questions regarding the new changes that have taken place in my parish. they include the following:

**1. **our tabernacle is behind the altar. my whole life i have knelt before entering the pew. is this in reverence for the tabernacle or the altar? also, our priest said if we arrive before mass starts, we are to genuflect before entering the pew, but if we arrive after mass starts we should bow instead of kneel. is there anything about the nature of the mass that would require this?

It is in reverence to the Blessed Sacrament contained in the tabernacle. Once Mass begins the focus should be on the Liturgy and not the reserved Blessed Sacrament. This is why it is said that the tabernacle should not be on the altar used for the celebration of Mass. The focus must be on the Sacrifice taking place on the altar.

**2. **also, our cantor now instructs us to face the center aisle during th entrance of the priest. where does this come from? should i do this? after reading the GIRM w/ the US adaptations i find no requirement to face the center aisle during the entrance.

That would make sense.

**3. **as for standing after the Agnus Dei, the last sentence (which i have bolded) in the following paragraph from the GIRM seems to be the key phrase:

ok, my whole life i have knelt after the Agnus Dei. but, apparently, the diocesan bishop has determined otherwise, so now we stand. here’s my question tho: does the bishop need the approval of the vatican before he can make this change? if so, has he received this approval? does he have the authority to even propose, let alone demand, that we stand?

This can be determined by the local Bishop for his diocese.

**4. **as for standing after receiving communion and until everyone else has received, i have a couple questions over this section from the GIRM:

ok, it says that we should stand from the prayer over the offerings until the end of mass, unless indicated below. well, in the next two paragraphs, it doesn’t proscribe a particular posture for right after receiving communion, so would the first paragraph be the support for standing while we wait for others to receive? in the second paragraph, it says “they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.” when does the sacred silence take place? is it as soon as i have received or after everyone has received?

The Vatican was asked to clarify this. The response was that no one was to specify the posture of the faithful AFTER they return to their place from receiving Holy Communion.

5. what precedence should custom have in these matters? what authority does it possess? it would appear that if the customary posture is still allowed that it should be retained.

Custom is generally not something that was started by a local parish in the last 15 or 20 years. Generally “Custom” is something that has been done for 50 or a hundred or more years.

6. what should i do? follow custom and kneel during the times in question, or stand so as to maintain unity among the parishoners?

You should follow the GIRM. In the few places where it gives the Bishop authority, follow the Bishop. Where it says that you may determine what you do (like standing, sitting or kneeling after receiving Holy Communion.) You will have to decide what you will do.

 

[Isidore_AK]

This is actually a problem up here…

My parish is split, about 50/50 on what we do now that the Bishop has mandated that all parishes stand instead of kneel from the Agnus Dei onward. Even those that are standing question the move, since it doesn’t feel respectful.

I know that I’m part of the group that is blowing off the archbishop on this one…many have continued to kneel throughout regardless of what he says, and will continue to do so. I actually think our Priest is a bit proud of us ‘Traditionalists’ (scary to think of that term with the NO Mass, eh?), and doesn’t say anything about it…just kind of winks at us when he puts another ‘reminder’ in the bulletin. There is no reason we shouldn’t be allowed to kneel after communion. As long as the body and blood of Christ is in our presence, we should be on our knees…

 

[maryj]

went to mass at a catholic church out of my diocese last Sunday and was very uncomfortable that people didn’t kneel after receiving Holy Communion. And yet I also didn’t drop to my knees either, I feel sort of ashamed of this!! Also no one bowed before receiving Communion which also had my hackles up. I’m so glad I found this thread. I shall be a traditionalist and kneel also as I am accustomed.

not as man sees does God see,
because man sees the appearance,
but the Lord looks into the heart.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Isidore_AK:

This is actually a problem up here…

My parish is split, about 50/50 on what we do now that the Bishop has mandated that all parishes stand instead of kneel from the Agnus Dei onward. Even those that are standing question the move, since it doesn’t feel respectful…

I find nothing wrong and even find it a bit more practical to stand from the Agnus Dei to Holy Communion and then at your choice stand, sit or kneel after you return to your pew.

 

[Lanciano]

The purpose here should be the reverence, worship, adoration, respect, etc. paid to Christ in the Eucharist. When Christ is made present, in the form of the Eucharist, either by the concecration or by opening the Tabernacle we should be on our knees.

I kneel after the Agnus Dei and stand only during the saying of the Our Father. I would kneel when taking communion, but cannot unless I have something to assist me in rising. I kneel after the sign of peace and do not partake in that unless someone approaches me. This is during daily Mass which is a Novus Ordo. On Sunday I attend a Tridentine, an indult. The proper posture is taken care of.

Our Bishop wants us standing from the Agnus Dei till everyone is done going to communion. All in my Church stand from the Agnus Dei until they come back from Communion, then they either kneel or sit. Once in a while someone stands but not very often.

Our priest told us when to stand as the Bishop had requested but has never reminded us since. But has said, privately, that he wished more people were devoted enough to kneel.

 

[TOME]

A few ago the parish I belong to at the time (I left because I was transfered - it was a very good parish) had a priest that insisted that we stand duing the concencration and the reception of Holy Communion. He and I had a long discussion about this and whether it’s right or wrong I could understand where he was coming from on this (please forgive me but I cannot remember if our Bishop had said anything explicitly about this at that time) As he explained, from our oldest traditions kneeling was a sign of penance while standing was a sign of adoration. Also, kneelers really didn’t come into use in Churches until the Middle Ages. So during the Eucharistic Prayer we are adoring God, that is the primary motivation for standing. Also, the time when the congregation is receiving the Eucharist standing is not only a sign of adoration it is a reminder, through our actions of standing, that having received the Eucharist, Christ sacramental presence is as real in us as it is on the alter and in the Tabernacle therefore standing was preferable to kneeling while everone is in the process of receiving the Eucharist. So, my opinion is I prefer to kneel rather than stand at those time, however, if the Bishop allows it, or mandates it, I can understand why. However, as I told him while he may be correct, there was a weekness in doing this, namely, he didn’t explain it well to the parish. I see the same thing happening in many of these responses.