Standing after the pouring of the wine and water

  • Thread starter Thread starter computerguy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

computerguy

Guest
Do we stand or sit when we say… “May the lord accept the sacrafice…” etc. I think thats after the priests washes/rinses his hands. Can anyone clarify for me?
 
I cannot recall how specific the GIRM’s instruction is about when to stand. You should be standing, however, by the time you make your response.

You either stand right before the priest says, “Pray, bretheren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father,” or you stand as the priest is saying that.
 
40.png
MusicMan:
I cannot recall how specific the GIRM’s instruction is about when to stand. You should be standing, however, by the time you make your response.

You either stand right before the priest says, “Pray, bretheren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father,” or you stand as the priest is saying that.
Click to expand...
My view is that you stand at the end of the priest’s invitation, when he finishs saying “Pray brethren that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.”

In the Latin edition of the 2002 Roman Missal it has the Order of Mass. On page 515, n. 29 it has the rubrics for the priest, then the words of invitation, then:

“Populus surgit et respondet:
Suscipiat Dominus …”

So when there is an approved translation of this rubric I expect it will be: The People stand and repond: May the Lord ….

The people are meant to stand together. So how can they stand before the priest’s invitation? What would the cue be? When the priest stops washing his hands? When he stops drying them? When he hands back the towel? When he turns to face the people? When he extends his hands? … The clearest cue, the one in the Order of Mass of the 2002 Roman Missal, is when he finishs the invitation.
 
The theological reason for this is that catholics pray standing because we are a “Risen People.” I remember a professor of mine (who is a convert) made the distinction that catholics have stand up prayer and protestants have sit down prayer. It is just more fully in conformity with our prayer practices at that moment in the liturgy.
 
John Lilburne:
My view is that you stand at the end of the priest’s invitation, when he finishs saying “Pray brethren that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.”

In the Latin edition of the 2002 Roman Missal it has the Order of Mass. On page 515, n. 29 it has the rubrics for the priest, then the words of invitation, then:

“Populus surgit et respondet:
Suscipiat Dominus …”

So when there is an approved translation of this rubric I expect it will be: The People stand and repond: May the Lord ….

The people are meant to stand together. So how can they stand before the priest’s invitation? What would the cue be? When the priest stops washing his hands? When he stops drying them? When he hands back the towel? When he turns to face the people? When he extends his hands? … The clearest cue, the one in the Order of Mass of the 2002 Roman Missal, is when he finishs the invitation.
Click to expand...
Is there anything in the GIRM about it? and if so where?

Thanks.
 
Here it is. This is directly from the current US (English) tranlation of the GIRM, found here: usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml on the USCCB’s website.

“146. Upon returning to the middle of the altar, the priest, facing the people and extending and then joining his hands, invites the people to pray, saying, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren). The people rise and make their response: Suscipiat Dominus (May the Lord accept). Then the priest, with hands extended, says the prayer over the offerings. At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.”

This would indicate one of two things: 1.) The people wait to respond until all are standing or 2.) The people respond as they are rising.

Because of this implied confusion, many priests and bishops have instructed the faithful to either rise after the priest finishes washing his hands and turns to face the altar/people (there may be a gesture at this point from the priest indicating they are to stand), or they rise as the priest prays the “Pray, bretheren” invitation.

There is yet ANOTHER new translation of the GIRM coming, but I don’t know when. It will have all sorts of nifty changes. Perhaps this issue will get cleared up too. The current GIRM translated and in use in the US is the one from 2000. I do not know if the new one will be just a new translation of the 2000 GIRM or a new translation of a brand new GIRM altogether.
 
40.png
MusicMan:
Here it is. This is directly from the current US (English) tranlation of the GIRM, found here: usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml on the USCCB’s website.

“146. Upon returning to the middle of the altar, the priest, facing the people and extending and then joining his hands, invites the people to pray, saying, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren). The people rise and make their response: Suscipiat Dominus (May the Lord accept). Then the priest, with hands extended, says the prayer over the offerings. At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.”

This would indicate one of two things: 1.) The people wait to respond until all are standing or 2.) The people respond as they are rising.

Because of this implied confusion, many priests and bishops have instructed the faithful to either rise after the priest finishes washing his hands and turns to face the altar/people (there may be a gesture at this point from the priest indicating they are to stand), or they rise as the priest prays the “Pray, bretheren” invitation.

There is yet ANOTHER new translation of the GIRM coming, but I don’t know when. It will have all sorts of nifty changes. Perhaps this issue will get cleared up too. The current GIRM translated and in use in the US is the one from 2000. I do not know if the new one will be just a new translation of the 2000 GIRM or a new translation of a brand new GIRM altogether.
Click to expand...
Confusing… So we do stand at that point…? Or it’s up to the bishop?
 
Try to coordinate 50-500-1500 people all standing and then responding. It’s just easier to not quite do what the norm says and have everyone stand before the priest’s invitation, have everyone stand while he gives it, or have everyone stand while they’re responding.

None of the three en vogue ways of handling this posture do exactly what the rubric says. In my parish, I do what my priest instructs on this one. When I travel, I go with the flow. If I go to Mass at a parish that doesn’t yet follow this rubric, then I pop up right as we make our response.
 
40.png
MusicMan:
Try to coordinate 50-500-1500 people all standing and then responding. It’s just easier to not quite do what the norm says and have everyone stand before the priest’s invitation, have everyone stand while he gives it, or have everyone stand while they’re responding.

None of the three en vogue ways of handling this posture do exactly what the rubric says. In my parish, I do what my priest instructs on this one. When I travel, I go with the flow. If I go to Mass at a parish that doesn’t yet follow this rubric, then I pop up right as we make our response.
Click to expand...
I see. So, besides the trying to coordinate the congregation to stand at that point, a priest made the point to me that the logic behind sitting down until the entire prayer is said may be that it is more reverent, instead of the noise of the congregation standing up, while saying the prayer…
 
40.png
computerguy:
I see. So, besides the trying to coordinate the congregation to stand at that point, a priest made the point to me that the logic behind sitting down until the entire prayer is said may be that it is more reverent, instead of the noise of the congregation standing up, while saying the prayer…
Click to expand...
But a problem with sitting is that it is ignoring deliberate changes made in the 2002 GIRM 146 and 2002 Order of Mass n. 29.

Another place where the times to stand is mentioned is 2002 GIRM 43: “from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren).”

This adds to the confusion, being slightly different to 2002 GIRM 146 and 2002 Order of Mass, n. 29.

The approach of individual decisions by a priest or bishop contradicts the requirements of 2002 GIRM 390, that adaptations on posture are to be made by the Conference of Bishops and approved by the Apostolic See.

Another issue here is if incense is used. It is used in the Stational Mass of the Diocesan Bishop, described in the Ceremonial of Bishops. The instructions are:

“149. … The bishop receives the censer from the deacon and, in the same way as at the beginning of Mass and accompanied by a deacon, incenses the gifts, as well as the altar adn the cross. After this, all rise, and a deacon, standing at the side of the altar, incenses the bishop, who stands without the miter, then the concelebrants, then the people.” (Ceremonial of Bishops, Liturgical Press, 1989, page 56).

There are no instructions to then sit for the invitation, “Pray, Brethren” and stand again. It would be strange to do so.

But the 2002 GIRM does not have any instructions about standing to be incensed. So presumably you do not, unless it is a Bishop’s Stational Mass.

So a confusing area that hopefully Conferences of Bishops can clarify.
 
It seems very clear to me. This is why the GIRM is written as it is with different scenarios with some overlapping principles. In a mass without incense the people should stand after the Orate Fratres and then respond in turn. In a mass with incense the people stand for the incensation and remain standing through the Orate Fratres.
 
40.png
mosher:
It seems very clear to me. This is why the GIRM is written as it is with different scenarios with some overlapping principles. In a mass without incense the people should stand after the Orate Fratres and then respond in turn. In a mass with incense the people stand for the incensation and remain standing through the Orate Fratres.
Click to expand...
Hmm. Thanks guys, you were a great help!
 
In our parish we begin standing after the priest says: "Pray my brothers and sisters… By the time he is done with his invitation to prayer the congregation is standing and answers: “May the Lord accept…” The first few weeks it seemed different. Now it is quite natural and the congregation moves all together without prompting.

I have heard rumor from liturgical people in the archdiocese that Rome will probably move the direction to stand to either right after the lavabo or immediately after the congregation replies “May the Lord…” which is where we all used to stand before the latest GIRM.
 
The new General Instruction has been completed by Rome, I believe, and is flux for use in the US. I am unsure of where the English edition is in the entire process. It gets translated, then the USCCB gets involved in making changes and adaptations, and then the English edition for use in the US must be submitted to Rome for final approval.

A preliminary translation was once put online, but I believe the ICEL demanded it be removed because of copyright issues (and not wanting the self-appointed liturgy police to get a sneak peak–because you know that once they see the response to “The Lord be with you” is now going to be “And with your spirit,” the liturgy police will be out there responding according to the new translation and chastising those around them who don’t do the same.). If the Latin edition is available online, it would be worthwhile to look at it and see if the change in posture at the Orate Fratres is going to change or not, or be cleared up.
 
40.png
MusicMan:
The new General Instruction has been completed by Rome, I believe, and is flux for use in the US. I am unsure of where the English edition is in the entire process. It gets translated, then the USCCB gets involved in making changes and adaptations, and then the English edition for use in the US must be submitted to Rome for final approval.

A preliminary translation was once put online, but I believe the ICEL demanded it be removed because of copyright issues (and not wanting the self-appointed liturgy police to get a sneak peak–because you know that once they see the response to “The Lord be with you” is now going to be “And with your spirit,” the liturgy police will be out there responding according to the new translation and chastising those around them who don’t do the same.). If the Latin edition is available online, it would be worthwhile to look at it and see if the change in posture at the Orate Fratres is going to change or not, or be cleared up.
Click to expand...
Each Bishop is given discresson on how to impliment all the minor changes. Some diocese will have some things changed while others will have others changed. The hope is that soon all will be on board. For instance in my Archdiocese there has been given latitude to the pastors to impliment the changes in their parish in a way that fits the clime of the parish. So, it will take time.
 
I do not know what the status of the newest English (US) translation of the GIRM is. However, after doing some research online, it appears that the new translation is just another official translation of the 2000 GIRM. I do not believe there is a GIRM from 2002, that just appears to be when the first English translation of the 2000 GIRM was approved.

The latest translation, however, appears to indicate the following:
“43 The faithful should stand from the beginning of the opening song or when the priest enters until the end of the opening prayer or collect; for the singing of the Alleluia before the gospel reading; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the profession of faith and the general intercessions; from the invitatory, “Pray that our sacrifice…”, before the prayer over the gifts to the end of the Mass, except at the places indicated later in this paragraph.”

adoremus.org/0303IGMR_Adapt.html

This would indicate that the minute the priest says, “Orate fratres” or the English equivelent, we stand. Unfortunately this site doesn’t have the projected retranslation of GIRM 146.
 
My understanding is the “Pray brethren…” is analogous to “Let us pray…” and as such, that is our cue to stand to pray. That’s the direction in our diocese, that is.
 
At my parish, the congregation use to remain sitting for the “May the Lord accept the sacrifice…”…

UNTIL - a few of us who realized the error began to stand as soon as the priest would say “Pray Brethren…”…
It took a few weeks, but ultimatly everyone rises now as soon as the priest prompts us to pray. It was great.
It is also a testiment to the power of peer pressure… People will follow like sheep, and not even blink. This of course can be good or bad!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top