standing before & after Communion

[dshix]

In my usual parish everybody kneels at the consecration. When the priest utters “Let Us Proclaim the Mystery of Faith”, the entire congregation “Stands” until the priest sits in the presidential chair after Holy Communion.

Naturally; the elderly, the physically disabled, or ill are not forced to abide by this ruling.
Makes me wonder why the Posture of standing is now the prodominant expression of adoration in the Church.

I can’t fathom the rational of the Canadian Bishop’s ruling on this. In a Catholic Church today all throughout North America and likely many places around the rest of the world where belief and faith in the Holy Presence of the Blessed Sacrament is diminished to far less than half of Catholics worldwide nothing makes sense.

Bad enough the Catholic Church is beseiged by continuous Secularism and Moral Relativism within the Church itself.

When a sense of Reverence an Awe towards the Blessed Sacrament led by example goes missing at Mass, those who struggle with their belief and Faith in the Blessed Sacrament will begin to lose what little they already have.

Its so sad.

That’s exactly what I feel.

 

[Liturgy_Geek_1]

When I am cantoring, I stand for two reasons:

1. My knees are in very bad shape and I cannot kneel for an extended time.
2. I am a luxury-sized gal and I think it would be very distracting, even comical, to see me trying to kneel on the prie-deau we do have for the cantor because it has wheels on it. Go ahead, laugh. I know you just got a hysterical mental image.

When I am with my disabled husband who cannot kneel, I sit with him. I don’t want to make him feel uncomfortable. After we receive, we put our heads together and spend a lovely time in prayer and communing with our Lord.

The most important thing is that God knows my heart. He knows how much I love the Eucharist and that it was the desire for the Eucharist that brought me into the Church.

 

[Phemie]

In my usual parish everybody kneels at the consecration. When the priest utters “Let Us Proclaim the Mystery of Faith”, the entire congregation “Stands” until the priest sits in the presidential chair after Holy Communion.

Naturally; the elderly, the physically disabled, or ill are not forced to abide by this ruling.
Makes me wonder why the Posture of standing is now the prodominant expression of adoration in the Church.

I can’t fathom the rational of the Canadian Bishop’s ruling on this. In a Catholic Church today all throughout North America and likely many places around the rest of the world where belief and faith in the Holy Presence of the Blessed Sacrament is diminished to far less than half of Catholics worldwide nothing makes sense.

Bad enough the Catholic Church is beseiged by continuous Secularism and Moral Relativism within the Church itself.

When a sense of Reverence an Awe towards the Blessed Sacrament led by example goes missing at Mass, those who struggle with their belief and Faith in the Blessed Sacrament will begin to lose what little they already have.

Its so sad.

This is not a Canadian Bishop thing, it’s the universal norm. They simply opted to follow the universal norm rather than ask for adaptations.

Kneeling is but one sign of reverence. The Eastern Rites are no less reverent because they don’t kneel.

 

[dshix]

This is not a Canadian Bishop thing, it’s the universal norm. They simply opted to follow the universal norm rather than ask for adaptations.

Kneeling is but one sign of reverence. The Eastern Rites are no less reverent because they don’t kneel.

How is standing reverent? It’s neutral.

 

[missadeangelis]

In my usual parish everybody kneels at the consecration. When the priest utters “Let Us Proclaim the Mystery of Faith”, the entire congregation “Stands” until the priest sits in the presidential chair after Holy Communion.

Naturally; the elderly, the physically disabled, or ill are not forced to abide by this ruling.
Makes me wonder why the Posture of standing is now the prodominant expression of adoration in the Church.

I can’t fathom the rational of the Canadian Bishop’s ruling on this. In a Catholic Church today all throughout North America and likely many places around the rest of the world where belief and faith in the Holy Presence of the Blessed Sacrament is diminished to far less than half of Catholics worldwide nothing makes sense.

Bad enough the Catholic Church is beseiged by continuous Secularism and Moral Relativism within the Church itself.

When a sense of Reverence an Awe towards the Blessed Sacrament led by example goes missing at Mass, those who struggle with their belief and Faith in the Blessed Sacrament will begin to lose what little they already have.

Its so sad.

It is indeed very sad. I asked our Priest about this because I was concerned about being irreverent in an OF Mass or a cause of scandal of sorts. He said absolutely not, it’s a personal matter of conscience and that people should be in prayer and focussing on God during Mass not gawking at what others are doing. It’s about reverence to our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament for me, and I don’t consider it a minor issue.

mda

 

[Phemie]

How is standing reverent? It’s neutral.

What’s in the heart is more important that the posture one assumes. If my bishop says “Stand after the Agnus Dei,” I’ll obey. If he says, “Kneel after the Agnus Dei,” that’s what I’ll do. Because I think that disobeying my Bishop means that I’m letting my pride get the better of me and making me think that I know more than the Bishop does.

 

[ConstantineTG]

How is standing reverent? It’s neutral.

When a person of great importance, say the President of the country or the CEO of the company, walks in the room, do you remain seated? Do you kneel?

Also standing has a lot of symbolism associated in scripture. We stand because this symbolizes our joyful hope in joining Christ in His Resurrection. Standing in Greek is the same Greek word for Resurrection (biblesuite.com/greek/386.htm). Also like the parable of the 10 Virgins, we signify our readiness for the coming of Christ. We can’t be lying down, or seated, for He will come like a thief in the night. We need to be ready, so we stand in anticipation.

 

[centurionguard]

When a person of great importance, say the President of the country or the CEO of the company, walks in the room, do you remain seated? Do you kneel?

Also standing has a lot of symbolism associated in scripture. We stand because this symbolizes our joyful hope in joining Christ in His Resurrection. Standing in Greek is the same Greek word for Resurrection (biblesuite.com/greek/386.htm). Also like the parable of the 10 Virgins, we signify our readiness for the coming of Christ. We can’t be lying down, or seated, for He will come like a thief in the night. We need to be ready, so we stand in anticipation.

With all due respect what you write here has been used all too often by a great many in the Modern Catholic Church to dissuade many in the concregation from the humble disposed posture to Kneel before one’s True and Only God in Adoration before the Altar of Sacrifice.

The posture and Custom of Standing during the Eucharist Liturgy has been forced on the laity in the Church since 1990 in my Archdiocese. Most parishes in my Archdiocese don’t even kneel during the consecration.

I’m not here to diminish any importance towards Obedience. A very special deacon and friend whom I have great love and respect now retired in his 80’s and recently lost his wife to illness, I had onced argued with him respectfully over the Standing at the Consecration and through the entire Eucharistic liturgy. He said at the time during the 1990’s that if one meet the President or Queen of England you wouldn’t kneel. To which I retorted; yes but if Jesus Christ the Son of God appeared to you, one would not be disposed in a proud fashion to stand equal before him? He replied; I’m only following obedience in service to my ordination and superiors. He later phoned me and said; if Jesus Christ appeared before him, he would fall prostrate in adoration before his God like that of Moses before the Burning Bush.

My point being the humbled inclined posture of Kneeling before the great miraculous miricle of Jesus humbled in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has completely been eroded to a point in the Church it has become completely meaningless. In the Latin Rite of the Mass it once had meaning.

Yes I know there are those in the Church who abhor customs and Traditions in the Church as a burden and being too antiquated.

But we Catholic sinners all come to Church to primarily Adore Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Seems many have forgotten even the spiritual significance of Sacrifice.

I believe the gesture of kneeling inclines the heart to humbly Adore Jesus in the Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass.

Here’s some “Food for Thought” The Theology of Kneeling
From Cardinal Ratzinger’s The Spirit of the Liturgy
adoremus.org/1102TheologyKneel.html

 

[ConstantineTG]

With all due respect what you write here has been used all too often by a great many in the Modern Catholic Church to dissuade many in the concregation from the humble disposed posture to Kneel before one’s True and Only God in Adoration before the Altar of Sacrifice.

The posture and Custom of Standing during the Eucharist Liturgy has been forced on the laity in the Church since 1990 in my Archdiocese. Most parishes in my Archdiocese don’t even kneel during the consecration.

I’m not here to diminish any importance towards Obedience. A very special deacon and friend whom I have great love and respect now retired in his 80’s and recently lost his wife to illness, I had onced argued with him respectfully over the Standing at the Consecration and through the entire Eucharistic liturgy. He said at the time during the 1990’s that if one meet the President or Queen of England you wouldn’t kneel. To which I retorted; yes but if Jesus Christ the Son of God appeared to you, one would not be disposed in a proud fashion to stand equal before him? He replied; I’m only following obedience in service to my ordination and superiors. He later phoned me and said; if Jesus Christ appeared before him, he would fall prostrate in adoration before his God like that of Moses before the Burning Bush.

My point being the humbled inclined posture of Kneeling before the great miraculous miricle of Jesus humbled in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has completely been eroded to a point in the Church it has become completely meaningless. In the Latin Rite of the Mass it once had meaning.

Yes I know there are those in the Church who abhor customs and Traditions in the Church as a burden and being too antiquated.

But we Catholic sinners all come to Church to primarily Adore Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Seems many have forgotten even the spiritual significance of Sacrifice.

I believe the gesture of kneeling inclines the heart to humbly Adore Jesus in the Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass.

Here’s some “Food for Thought” The Theology of Kneeling
From Cardinal Ratzinger’s The Spirit of the Liturgy
adoremus.org/1102TheologyKneel.html

Modern Church? You do know that standing has been the norm since the Jewish days. When they go to the temple, they stand to pray, and they stand when they offer sacrifices. You see it today in the wailing wall, none of the Jews are kneeling.

In the Early Church standing has also been the norm. While there were those who did kneel, the First Council of Nicaea codified that standing on Sundays was the norm (mind you that daily Liturgy was uncommon at this time, if at all practiced. The Eucharistic Liturgy was exclusively celebrated on the Lord’s Day. So the argument that “well we can kneel for daily Mass” does not hold for this point in history).

Kneeling was only insterted much later on and only in one Church, the Roman Church. Evidenced that to this day the various Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches stand for Liturgy throughout. Sans Latinizations of course.

 

[dshix]

Modern Church? You do know that standing has been the norm since the Jewish days. When they go to the temple, they stand to pray, and they stand when they offer sacrifices. You see it today in the wailing wall, none of the Jews are kneeling.

In the Early Church standing has also been the norm. While there were those who did kneel, the First Council of Nicaea codified that standing on Sundays was the norm (mind you that daily Liturgy was uncommon at this time, if at all practiced. The Eucharistic Liturgy was exclusively celebrated on the Lord’s Day. So the argument that “well we can kneel for daily Mass” does not hold for this point in history).

Kneeling was only insterted much later on and only in one Church, the Roman Church. Evidenced that to this day the various Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches stand for Liturgy throughout. Sans Latinizations of course.

Yep. We’re unique.

 

[ConstantineTG]

To me standing makes more sense. When we receive Communion, Christ is in communion with us, He is in us. Who are we kneeling to? When we stand we signal that we ourselves are joining Christ in His Resurrection, which is why we receive Communion in the first place. “He who eats this bread will live forever” (John 6:51).

 

[dshix]

To me standing makes more sense. When we receive Communion, Christ is in communion with us, He is in us. Who are we kneeling to? When we stand we signal that we ourselves are joining Christ in His Resurrection, which is why we receive Communion in the first place. “He who eats this bread will live forever” (John 6:51).

That is your personal opinion.

As I’m sure you know, there are two types of prayer: internal and external prayer. Internal prayer is the most important because without it prayer is fake; your inner heart must love God and must be communicating with him during prayer.

But external prayer is, in a sense, an enhancement on internal prayer, and a combination of both is more perfect.

Kneeling is a more prayerful external position than standing, just as having your head bowed and eyes closed is more prayerful than your head up and looking around intently at everyone around you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That is your personal opinion.

Indeed. A personal opinion formed by 2000 years of Church tradition from the time of the Apostles.

As I’m sure you know, there are two types of prayer: internal and external prayer. Internal prayer is the most important because without it prayer is fake; your inner heart must love God and must be communicating with him during prayer.

But external prayer is, in a sense, an enhancement on internal prayer, and a combination of both is more perfect.

Kneeling is a more prayerful external position than standing, just as having your head bowed and eyes closed is more prayerful than your head up and looking around intently at everyone around you.

I disagree. Kneeling is a penitential act. As I said, even from Jewish times prayer has always been done standing. Though prayers have been done in every position imaginable, and there are appropriate prayers when kneeling (like when asking for forgiveness), standing is the norm of prayer. Again, what external position is greater than the position of the Resurrection? That is what standing is? In English, this is translated faithfully in our courtrooms, when the judge enters and someone says, “all rise!” What do you do? You stand up. Because Jesus is risen from the dead, our hope is that we ourselves rise with him.

 

[dshix]

dshix;10019269:

That is your personal opinion.

Indeed. A personal opinion formed by 2000 years of Church tradition from the time of the Apostles.

As I’m sure you know, there are two types of prayer: internal and external prayer. Internal prayer is the most important because without it prayer is fake; your inner heart must love God and must be communicating with him during prayer.

But external prayer is, in a sense, an enhancement on internal prayer, and a combination of both is more perfect.

Kneeling is a more prayerful external position than standing, just as having your head bowed and eyes closed is more prayerful than your head up and looking around intently at everyone around you.

I disagree. Kneeling is a penitential act. As I said, even from Jewish times prayer has always been done standing. Though prayers have been done in every position imaginable, and there are appropriate prayers when kneeling (like when asking for forgiveness), standing is the norm of prayer. Again, what external position is greater than the position of the Resurrection? That is what standing is? In English, this is translated faithfully in our courtrooms, when the judge enters and someone says, “all rise!” What do you do? You stand up. Because Jesus is risen from the dead, our hope is that we ourselves rise with him.

 

[dshix]

dshix;10019269:

That is your personal opinion.

Indeed. A personal opinion formed by 2000 years of Church tradition from the time of the Apostles.

As I’m sure you know, there are two types of prayer: internal and external prayer. Internal prayer is the most important because without it prayer is fake; your inner heart must love God and must be communicating with him during prayer.

But external prayer is, in a sense, an enhancement on internal prayer, and a combination of both is more perfect.

Kneeling is a more prayerful external position than standing, just as having your head bowed and eyes closed is more prayerful than your head up and looking around intently at everyone around you.

I disagree. Kneeling is a penitential act. As I said, even from Jewish times prayer has always been done standing. Though prayers have been done in every position imaginable, and there are appropriate prayers when kneeling (like when asking for forgiveness), standing is the norm of prayer. Again, what external position is greater than the position of the Resurrection? That is what standing is? In English, this is translated faithfully in our courtrooms, when the judge enters and someone says, “all rise!” What do you do? You stand up. Because Jesus is risen from the dead, our hope is that we ourselves rise with him.

First off, you seem to have changed the definition of “personal opinion.”

You said:
“To me standing makes more sense.”

THAT is a personal opinion, NOT something formed by 2000 years of Church doctrine.

Then you went on to say that kneeling is a penitential act. KNEELING a penitential act? Kneeling might be penitential to you, but to me, (and all the people in my parish, and all the people I know in my diocese) kneeling is just a sign of respect to God.

If you think that standing is more reverent than kneeling, I don’t think we can have any coherent conversation as I find that idea rather backwards.

 

[ConstantineTG]

First off, you seem to have changed the definition of “personal opinion.”

You said:
“To me standing makes more sense.”

THAT is a personal opinion, NOT something formed by 2000 years of Church doctrine.

Then you went on to say that kneeling is a penitential act. KNEELING a penitential act? Kneeling might be penitential to you, but to me, (and all the people in my parish, and all the people I know in my diocese) kneeling is just a sign of respect to God.

You completely brushed over what I said about internal and external prayer. Did you read it at all?

Well, there is 2000 years of Church Tradition that supports standing during Liturgy. It still is up to me to accept it or not, right? I can argue that kneeling makes more sense to me thus I can adhere to that tradition more. But my personal opinion which is rooted in the Church’s own teaching and tradition is that I accept what the Church teaches about standing and its symbolism with regards to the Resurrection.

 

[dshix]

Well, there is 2000 years of Church Tradition that supports standing during Liturgy. It still is up to me to accept it or not, right? I can argue that kneeling makes more sense to me thus I can adhere to that tradition more. But my personal opinion which is rooted in the Church’s own teaching and tradition is that I accept what the Church teaches about standing and its symbolism with regards to the Resurrection.

Fair enough. Out of curiosity, what Catholic Rite do you attend?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Fair enough. Out of curiosity, what Catholic Rite do you attend?

Born and raised Roman, currently Byzantine for over 2 years.

 

[Peter_Plato]

My point being the humbled inclined posture of Kneeling before the great miraculous miricle of Jesus humbled in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has completely been eroded to a point in the Church it has become completely meaningless. In the Latin Rite of the Mass it once had meaning.

Yes I know there are those in the Church who abhor customs and Traditions in the Church as a burden and being too antiquated.

But we Catholic sinners all come to Church to primarily Adore Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Seems many have forgotten even the spiritual significance of Sacrifice.

I believe the gesture of kneeling inclines the heart to humbly Adore Jesus in the Eucharistic Sacrifice of the Mass.

This is true in the Consecration, but at reception of Communion, Jesus becomes one with the members of his Body who make up the Church. At Communion, Jesus is fully present and alive in all the members who have received his Body and Blood. Who are we kneeling to at that point? If Jesus is still only “outside” the members of his Body, at the Altar or in the Tabernacle, then he is not “present” in the members that make up his Body, the Church.

The Mass, as a Sacrament, is revelatory of the nature and purpose of God. As a specific Sacrament that signifies the sacrifice of Christ’s redemption of humanity, it tells a “story.”

The Introductory Rites welcome into his “Church,” into his “Body,” all who are taking part, communally, in the redemptive act of the Sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This is an interchange between God and man, to prepare man for communion with God in the heavenly banquet. It is a “coming to agreement.” We confess our negligence and unworthiness but also our willingness to be a part of this new covenant.

In the Liturgy of the Word (Biblical Readings, Homily, Creed, Intercessions) God reveals himself to us and we assent with our understanding to what has been revealed.

In the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Preparation, Eucharistic Prayer; Communion Rite) the Sacrifice is made in memory of the Sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary. We join our willingness to be sanctified with God’s willingness to provide all that we need in order to achieve communion as “one Body” the Body of Christ, our total self-gift to God. Kneeling at the Consecration is appropriate because we kneel in submission to Jesus who has not yet been received.

However, at the reception of the Eucharist, we demonstrate willingness to receive by moving forward and by standing as “one body” with each other we demonstrate solidarity with each other. Christ has become one with us in order to fulfill his mission of redeeming the world. Our standing shows solidarity and readiness to do our part together, to go to all corners of the globe to “carry” Christ there. It is a stance that shows our willingness to “do his will” because we are now enlivened by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not only present in the Tabernacle, but in our very beings to move us by his Holy Spirit. Kneeling at this point would seem contrary to the progression of the narrative of the Mass.

Our local parish priest took great pains several weeks ago to explain the significance of the actions of participants in the Mass, in particular with the issue of standing during communion. The above is my clumsy understanding of what he detailed, but it makes sense to me and has resulted in much greater unanimity and community in the parish where I attend.

When this “new” protocol was initiated about a year ago, there was a lot of confusion about the point of this change.

Given the deterioration of modern western culture, it is clearer to me that Catholics are being called to the role of “Church Militant,” to stand together as a united Body to face the threats being launched at the Church. This could very well be a small token or symbol of precisely how we are being called to live up to the challenge.

Just some thoughts.

 

[missadeangelis]

This is true in the Consecration, but at reception of Communion, Jesus becomes one with the members of his Body who make up the Church. At Communion, Jesus is fully present and alive in all the members who have received his Body and Blood. Who are we kneeling to at that point? If Jesus is still only “outside” the members of his Body, at the Altar or in the Tabernacle, then he is not “present” in the members that make up his Body, the Church.

The Mass, as a Sacrament, is revelatory of the nature and purpose of God. As a specific Sacrament that signifies the sacrifice of Christ’s redemption of humanity, it tells a “story.”

The Introductory Rites welcome into his “Church,” into his “Body,” all who are taking part, communally, in the redemptive act of the Sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This is an interchange between God and man, to prepare man for communion with God in the heavenly banquet. It is a “coming to agreement.” We confess our negligence and unworthiness but also our willingness to be a part of this new covenant.

In the Liturgy of the Word (Biblical Readings, Homily, Creed, Intercessions) God reveals himself to us and we assent with our understanding to what has been revealed.

In the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Preparation, Eucharistic Prayer; Communion Rite) the Sacrifice is made in memory of the Sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary. We join our willingness to be sanctified with God’s willingness to provide all that we need in order to achieve communion as “one Body” the Body of Christ, our total self-gift to God. Kneeling at the Consecration is appropriate because we kneel in submission to Jesus who has not yet been received.

However, at the reception of the Eucharist, we demonstrate willingness to receive by moving forward and by standing as “one body” with each other we demonstrate solidarity with each other. Christ has become one with us in order to fulfill his mission of redeeming the world. Our standing shows solidarity and readiness to do our part together, to go to all corners of the globe to “carry” Christ there. It is a stance that shows our willingness to “do his will” because we are now enlivened by the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not only present in the Tabernacle, but in our very beings to move us by his Holy Spirit. Kneeling at this point would seem contrary to the progression of the narrative of the Mass.

Our local parish priest took great pains several weeks ago to explain the significance of the actions of participants in the Mass, in particular with the issue of standing during communion. The above is my clumsy understanding of what he detailed, but it makes sense to me and has resulted in much greater unanimity and community in the parish where I attend.

When this “new” protocol was initiated about a year ago, there was a lot of confusion about the point of this change.

Given the deterioration of modern western culture, it is clearer to me that Catholics are being called to the role of “Church Militant,” to stand together as a united Body to face the threats being launched at the Church. This could very well be a small token or symbol of precisely how we are being called to live up to the challenge.

Just some thoughts.

Oh my…

This is seemingly a refutation of the dogmatic teaching on the perpetual Real Presence of our Blessed Lord - Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity - in the Holy Eucharist and a grave misunderstanding of the mystical body of Christ and the actual Body of Christ in the most Holy Sacrament of the Altar along with a pile of other doctrinal and dogmatic errors. It is very troubling if this is what your Priest teaches the faithful entrusted to his care.

mda