Standing during Communion

[choy]

So you are implying that everything every priest says is correct?

at this point we have already established that what the priest is asking is neither an abuse nor a disrespect. and in fact it is the norm in the Church. you are arguing beyond the context of this discussion. of course if the preist asks you to take out a gun and start shooting people, you don’t do that. but what the priest has asked is not only allowed and good, but the norm of the Church. and yet you insist on not following him because you have your own way. given that your own way is allowed also, so which do you do? follow the priest or follow yourself?

If that is the case how can we possibly have differing instructions from different bishops accompanied by differing interpretations of those instructions by different priests. In matters of faith I trust the bishops, in all other matters I think. If employing the sign of respect that I was taught 60 years ago by the very clergy you say are always correct is now wrong then exactly what instruction can I trust; today’s, yesterday’s, tomorrow’s? If anything I consider the willful tinkering with liturgical tradition a matter of pride.

unless its doctrine that can never be changed, then follow what is today. the Church has to adjust to where the people are today. what may be reverent 500 years ago may not be today. what may be a sign of respect 500 years ago may be not today. if you called someone “gay” 100 years ago, thats a good thing. if you call someone “gay” today and they’re not what “gay” is today, then prepare yourself for a fight. the Church has to adapt to where the culture of the times are. isn’t this biblical? Jesus abolished some Jewish traditions because people already lost sense why they have those traditions in the first place. and kept those that still made sense.

 

[SMHW]

FWIT, standing, especially without support, actually increases one’s blood pressure. I wouldn’t understand it if the Church actually were to force anyone to stand.

Of course not. Nor does the Church force anyone to stand during the reading of the Gospel even though it is the prescribed posture.

The point is that kneeling or sitting are the *exceptional *postures for a communicant while the communion procession is still going on. This is an unusual case in that what is currently an exception has been given the OK. But the Dubium doesn’t change the fact that kneeling or sitting are considered exceptional postures. Standing is the norm.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

at this point we have already established that what the priest is asking is neither an abuse nor a disrespect. and in fact it is the norm in the Church. you are arguing beyond the context of this discussion. of course if the preist asks you to take out a gun and start shooting people, you don’t do that. but what the priest has asked is not only allowed and good, but the norm of the Church. and yet you insist on not following him because you have your own way. given that your own way is allowed also, so which do you do? follow the priest or follow yourself?

unless its doctrine that can never be changed, then follow what is today. the Church has to adjust to where the people are today. what may be reverent 500 years ago may not be today. what may be a sign of respect 500 years ago may be not today. if you called someone “gay” 100 years ago, thats a good thing. if you call someone “gay” today and they’re not what “gay” is today, then prepare yourself for a fight. the Church has to adapt to where the culture of the times are. isn’t this biblical? Jesus abolished some Jewish traditions because people already lost sense why they have those traditions in the first place. and kept those that still made sense.

Isn’t this relativism? It should be the people adapting to the Church not the other way around. We find ourselves in a constant state of religious uncertainty when tradition is abandoned in favor of what “feels good” today. I see a lot of danger in all this tinkering.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Of course not. Nor does the Church force anyone to stand during the reading of the Gospel even though it is the prescribed posture.

The point is that kneeling or sitting are the *exceptional *postures for a communicant while the communion procession is still going on. This is an unusual case in that what is currently an exception has been given the OK. But the Dubium doesn’t change the fact that kneeling or sitting are considered exceptional postures. Standing is the norm.

I find it difficult to believe this since I never came across it until about two years ago in a parish within the diocese of Pueblo, CO. It certainly was not the norm pre-VII and I don’t see much evidence for anything resembling a norm after VII.

 

[choy]

Isn’t this relativism? It should be the people adapting to the Church not the other way around. We find ourselves in a constant state of religious uncertainty when tradition is abandoned in favor of what “feels good” today. I see a lot of danger in all this tinkering.

you cannot dismiss everything in the name of relativism. if what you’re saying is true, then there should be only one Rite in the Church, one sui juris Church. why do the Byzantines have different traditions than the Latins, than the Coptics, than the Chaldeans? they adopted to the culture of those places, the same way the Church would adopt to the culture of the world today

there are things that you cannot change. the moral teachings of the Church, the Deposit of Faith, the doctrines and the dogmas. but the Church surely can integrate the culture of the people into its practices. it has been done in the past, why can’t it be done today?

 

[Bob_Aliano]

you cannot dismiss everything in the name of relativism. if what you’re saying is true, then there should be only one Rite in the Church, one sui juris Church. why do the Byzantines have different traditions than the Latins, than the Coptics, than the Chaldeans? they adopted to the culture of those places, the same way the Church would adopt to the culture of the world today

there are things that you cannot change. the moral teachings of the Church, the Deposit of Faith, the doctrines and the dogmas. but the Church surely can integrate the culture of the people into its practices. it has been done in the past, why can’t it be done today?

Maybe it’s just me but the reason I call many of the changes being enacted today tinkering is because they don’t address any shortcoming or liturgical lapse, in fact some appear to create lapses, rather they seem frivolous. Changing from what was once the tradition of kneeling while the Eucharist was exposed during communion to what amounts to a we don’t care what you do by the Church is a classic example of tinkering in my view. I was raised in a Church of sixty odd years ago, that Church instilled in me a sense of reverence during this part of the Mass that will never go away or change just because someone said it could. Keeling in prayer is a very important part of that reverence. For what it’s worth I would also appreciate silence in the church during that period but the choir director won out on that issue. We now get all of about 30 seconds of silent prayer before the closing prayer, sometimes.

 

[Phemie]

I find it difficult to believe this since I never came across it until about two years ago in a parish within the diocese of Pueblo, CO. It certainly was not the norm pre-VII and I don’t see much evidence for anything resembling a norm after VII.

Standing during Communion has been the universal norm for 35 years, since the publication of the 1975 GIRM. In the 1975 GIRM there was a proviso that bishops’ conferences could adapt other postures.

At that time, the only adaptation that the National Bishops’ Conference made to the universal norms on posture was that during the Eucharistic Prayer the faithful were to kneel from after the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic prayer. At the time it was to apply to all the US dioceses (in Canada this was delegated to each bishop who pretty much left it up to each pastor). In the late 90s the USCCB decided to do the same as Canada had always done (although I doubt that that was the reason for the decision) and allow each bishop to decide on posture for his diocese.

With the new edition of the GIRM, the US went back to a posture for the Eucharistic Prayer that applied to the entire country. They still didn’t change the norm for the posture during Communion.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Standing during Communion has been the universal norm for 35 years, since the publication of the 1975 GIRM. In the 1975 GIRM there was a proviso that bishops’ conferences could adapt other postures.

At that time, the only adaptation that the National Bishops’ Conference made to the universal norms on posture was that during the Eucharistic Prayer the faithful were to kneel from after the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic prayer. At the time it was to apply to all the US dioceses (in Canada this was delegated to each bishop who pretty much left it up to each pastor). In the late 90s the USCCB decided to do the same as Canada had always done (although I doubt that that was the reason for the decision) and allow each bishop to decide on posture for his diocese.

With the new edition of the GIRM, the US went back to a posture for the Eucharistic Prayer that applied to the entire country. They still didn’t change the norm for the posture during Communion.

Even more strange that I never came across it!

 

[johnnykins]

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.”
Some are standing in the Communion Procession, so everyone should be standing.I think you are reading too much into this - as with many who want to make such changes you interpret this language to say much more than it does. Why with your reading we’d all walk/process when the priest does, we’d stand at all readings, we’d assume the orans position - wait you probably already do that, I bet! Many times the priest or certain participants do different things. Generally when those doing specific things are doing them the faithful do not all do it - why it would be chaos!

“43. … and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.”
During Communion is not “after Communion”. The period of sacred silence is not while ministers are saying “The Body of Christ” and people are responding “Amen”.

Oh my, you forgot this quote: "In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise." WE kneel after the Agnus Dei unless…So in this Diocese has the Bishop said “otherwise”? Unless it’s Seattle or Erie, looks like it’s not allowed

"43. … With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal."What is indicated - that the faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise. Since that is not unless the Bishop indicates otherwise presumably you should NOT follow his directions since it’s outside the Missal and, I suggest informing your priest he is off base!

So I suggest supporting your parish priest, who is following what the approved liturgical book says.

Cordially

 

[Aramis]

According to the USCCB website, the norm in the United States is to kneel following the Agnus Dei until the distribution of Communion unless the diocesan bishop has determined otherwise. The only bishop that I can think of offhand who has done this is Bishop Trautman in the Diocese of Eerie. In any case, it’s not up to the individual priest to make this call.

usccb.org/liturgy/innews/092002.shtml

Unless I’m missing something…

You are.

All of Alaska’s latins remain standing at the Agnus Dei and until the Blessed Sacrament is Reposed. Archbishop Hurley and Archbishop Schweitz specified as ABp and Coadjutor-ABp; the other dioceses followed suit.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

you cannot dismiss everything in the name of relativism. if what you’re saying is true, then there should be only one Rite in the Church, one sui juris Church. why do the Byzantines have different traditions than the Latins, than the Coptics, than the Chaldeans? they adopted to the culture of those places, the same way the Church would adopt to the culture of the world today

there are things that you cannot change. the moral teachings of the Church, the Deposit of Faith, the doctrines and the dogmas. but the Church surely can integrate the culture of the people into its practices. it has been done in the past, why can’t it be done today?

Cultural adaptations such as language I can understand, adaptations such as standing until the last person has received communion doesn’t sound cultural to me, sounds like a pretty arbitrary rule more social than religious in origin. There was a time when a Roman Catholic could attend Mass nearly anywhere in the world and know exactly what to expect, not so today. I can’t even go two miles down the road to the next diocese and know what to expect!

I think it may be time for me to return to the Latin Mass.

 

[choy]

Cultural adaptations such as language I can understand, adaptations such as standing until the last person has received communion doesn’t sound cultural to me, sounds like a pretty arbitrary rule more social than religious in origin. There was a time when a Roman Catholic could attend Mass nearly anywhere in the world and know exactly what to expect, not so today. I can’t even go two miles down the road to the next diocese and know what to expect!

I think it may be time for me to return to the Latin Mass.

cultural is social
unless you have a different understanding of the term

if you look at Church history, a lot of the practices are an integration of social practices into religious beliefs. why do you think we have Christmas at Winter Solstice? or All Saint’s Day around the time other pagan religions celebrate the day of the dead? we took these celebrations and turned them into symbols of Christianity. if it can be done back then, why can’t it be done today?

 

[ProVobis]

I think it may be time for me to return to the Latin Mass.

Not the best reason but good enough.

I’ve seen too many people pass out from standing too long.

 

[johnnykins]

cultural is social
unless you have a different understanding of the term

if you look at Church history, a lot of the practices are an integration of social practices into religious beliefs. why do you think we have Christmas at Winter Solstice? or All Saint’s Day around the time other pagan religions celebrate the day of the dead? we took these celebrations and turned them into symbols of Christianity. if it can be done back then, why can’t it be done today?

Perhaps - but since it was universally the custom in the USA for the Congregation to kneel in the pews during communion - what cultural event changed this? Or did a few “reformers” decide this needed changing to suit their own agendas? The American adaptation of the GIRM is clear that we kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the local ordinary decides otherwise - what cultural inroads are specially applicable to Erie, Seattle and Alaska?

It seems to me those Bishops are forcing a change in a most counter-cultural manner! (I use the term deliberately just so the 60’s allusion is not lost!) It seems to me if culture is the touchstone - then kneeling as the longterm cultural catholic position should prevail and not some change imposed from above.

 

[johnnykins]

BTW don’t you think that Bishops unilaterally imposing a change in long term posture without any organic demand - nor any mandate from Rome - for such represents a sort of arrogant clericalism that runs directly counter to VII?

It seems to me that this sort of arrogance is akin to that which causes Bishops to cover up sexual abuse, and leads to a whole host of other problems.

I’m shocked that those who support standing by the Congregation during Communion clearly support a monarchical and medieval hierarchy as well as a fraternity-like coverup of abuse that means that those among us supporting such posture are anti-feminist, patriarchal, unthinking, uneducated, troglodytes!

Shame on you all!

 

[ProVobis]

Standing during Communion has been the universal norm for 35 years

I find this difficult to believe.

Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Philippians 2:5-12

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Not the best reason but good enough.

I’ve seen too many people pass out from standing too long.

Oh it’s not just this standing issue that is irritating me.

There is a perverse attitude that seems to be permeating the Church that’s a bit hard to nail down; it’s an all about me sort of thing. The congregation is increasingly disrespectful in posture and behavior; I see a growing number arriving late to Mass, as late as the middle of the Gospel; I see a growing number leaving at communion; there is an almost party attitude full of chatter and gossip before and after Mass to the detriment of those trying to pray; there is an attitude, as expressed in this thread, that the Church should conform to the wishes of the congregation, exactly opposite of reality; priests and bishops are making liturgical changes for questionable reasons, there is no continuity between parishes or even archdiocese any more and finally there is so much choir interference in the Mass that the priest has to pause for the choir and no quiet time is available for contemplative prayer.

It just doesn’t feel right any more and I fear may be leading many astray. It has reached the point with me that I leave Mass frustrated, sometimes even angry, and that certainly isn’t healthy either physically or spiritually.

 

[choy]

Perhaps - but since it was universally the custom in the USA for the Congregation to kneel in the pews during communion - what cultural event changed this? Or did a few “reformers” decide this needed changing to suit their own agendas? The American adaptation of the GIRM is clear that we kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the local ordinary decides otherwise - what cultural inroads are specially applicable to Erie, Seattle and Alaska?

i highlighted something and want to ask if you missed it. because clearly the Diocesan Bishop can decide what posture the people in his diocese has to assume. i’m wary of people bringing out the “reformers agenda” card everytime something doesn’t go their way. why does it have to be your agenda and not theirs? can’t you trust your bishops and priests that they’re doing whats best for everybody without thinking of a sinister agenda behind it?

It seems to me those Bishops are forcing a change in a most counter-cultural manner! (I use the term deliberately just so the 60’s allusion is not lost!) It seems to me if culture is the touchstone - then kneeling as the longterm cultural catholic position should prevail and not some change imposed from above.

since the Bishops were given the authority to decide on the matter anyway, why can’t you just let them? i think it takes a great amount of humility for one to accept their place and accept what their told, and it takes a great amount of pride to insist on one’s preferences even though someone who has authority over them in such matters decides otherwise.

 

[choy]

BTW don’t you think that Bishops unilaterally imposing a change in long term posture without any organic demand - nor any mandate from Rome - for such represents a sort of arrogant clericalism that runs directly counter to VII?

It seems to me that this sort of arrogance is akin to that which causes Bishops to cover up sexual abuse, and leads to a whole host of other problems.

I’m shocked that those who support standing by the Congregation during Communion clearly support a monarchical and medieval hierarchy as well as a fraternity-like coverup of abuse that means that those among us supporting such posture are anti-feminist, patriarchal, unthinking, uneducated, troglodytes!

Shame on you all!

there is a mandate from Rome. it says that they can change the posture if they so decide.

instead of trying to analyze the attitudes of the Bishops, why not analyze your attitude on why you cannot be obedient to your elders on such matters that they have the authority to decide on, and in fact on matters that they are authorized to change.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

there is a mandate from Rome. it says that they can change the posture if they so decide.

instead of trying to analyze the attitudes of the Bishops, why not analyze your attitude on why you cannot be obedient to your elders on such matters that they have the authority to decide on, and in fact on matters that they are authorized to change.

I intend to just that but contrary to these liberal elders you are so fond of, I intend to return to the truth, the elders who have remained faithful through the Latin Mass.