J
johnnykins
Guest
I understand completely - don’t be obtuse yourself. The last time I checked the Agnus dei was after the EP
- Status
J
johnnykins
Guest
See post #29
"In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise." emphasis added
"In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise." emphasis added
C
choy
Guest
after the Agnus Dei is the Eucharistic Prayer
do you even go to Mass?
how many times to i have to say we’re talking about during communion, not the Eucharistic Prayer which is after the Agnus Dei
C
choy
Guest
if you read the GIRM, the next paragraph also says…
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
J
johnnykins
Guest
according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
You need to highlight the entire sentence. Standing after the Agnus Dei is NOT indicated in the Missal unless the Bishop so decides!
Therefore the PRIEST has NO AUTHORITY to order it!
J
johnnykins
Guest
I thought there might be confusion on your part - now I know it’s ignorance.
The “Lamb of God” Agnus Dei - is after the Our Father with is after the Eucharistic Prayer.
You are the one who clearly has little or no understanding of the order of the Mass - which actually now makes your contorted reading of the GIRM as adapted comprehensible - but still wrong
J
johnnykins
Guest
Is it just me or is it stunning to anyone else that people actually purport to interpret the GIRM through multilayers and yet have no idea what they are talking about? When someone actually vehemently chides someone for not attending Mass when it is clear the “chider” has no idea what the Order of the Mass consists of, you have to discount, if not totally disregard, their comments on the Mass, IMHO!
What’s also been unstated here is that what 3, maybe 4 or 5 Bishops have imposed this innovation that some posters claim is so clearly set forth in the GIRM and the other dioceses have not?
Sorry, the Church does not change longstanding positions without everyone knowing it. If the GIRM as adapted called for the entire congregation to stand during administration of Communion - I submit it would be clear and the vast majority if not all the dioceses would be doing it. That only a handful have imposed this innovation, I submit that they are the ones misreading the GIRM - if not actually deliberately twisting and contorting it - for some agenda. I also submit those who support such changes, especially when they have no idea what the Mass consists of, are simply fellow travelers with those who would manhandle the Mass toward a pernicious end contrary to the intention of HMC.
What’s also been unstated here is that what 3, maybe 4 or 5 Bishops have imposed this innovation that some posters claim is so clearly set forth in the GIRM and the other dioceses have not?
Sorry, the Church does not change longstanding positions without everyone knowing it. If the GIRM as adapted called for the entire congregation to stand during administration of Communion - I submit it would be clear and the vast majority if not all the dioceses would be doing it. That only a handful have imposed this innovation, I submit that they are the ones misreading the GIRM - if not actually deliberately twisting and contorting it - for some agenda. I also submit those who support such changes, especially when they have no idea what the Mass consists of, are simply fellow travelers with those who would manhandle the Mass toward a pernicious end contrary to the intention of HMC.
J
johnnykins
Guest
The Church can change postures: standing, kneeling or hopping up and down swinging a chicken over our head. Bishops can change CERTAIN things in their own dioceses - within their authority. The local pastor CANNOT unilaterally change this posture.
If HMC decides in her wisdom to make a change - fine. But, unless the local Ordinary has ordered this change the priest is off-base!
C
Canto
Guest
Where does the GIRM say this? Can you please provide the exact quote that says to “stand”. Thank-you.
J
johnnykins
Guest
Actually Evan the priest has no authority to change these postures. It’s true he has certain options concerning certain prayers, but the pastor does not have any right to ask or mandate these things. That, my friend, is a canard promoted by those “who know better” against we of the great unwashed. It born out of an arrogance that has no support in Canon law or priestly vocation.
C
choy
Guest
sigh
you really don’t get it
the priest has authority to implement things that are allowed in the Missal. there are several postures approved in the Missal, the norm being standing. the priest has authority based on what i quoted from the GIRM
C
choy
Guest
the priest has authority to implement approved postures
the priest is not improvising. he’s doing whats within the limits of his authority
T
Timothy17
Guest
This may be slightly off topic, but does anyone else get bothered a bit by the sense of urgency the Communion line, like all lines - especially long lines while standing (as someone said above, standing increases blood pressure) - naturally induce? I don’t know if its just social conditioning, the whole “hurry up and die” mentality or the consequences of modern culture but I find the Communion line distracting to an extent; for example, I feel a pressure by the not-so-steady speed of the line (some people take a little longer to receive than others) and by the awareness of the people behind me, or sometimes in a line beside me themselves moving forward, and not always harmoniously, etc. So you get to the priest, and you try to focus on the RP, and truly say your “Amen”, but still that social pressure is there from the knowledge of the people behind you, sometimes moving past/around/by you, etc. I figured this, like stage fright, would pass, yet the anxiety is still there, and I don’t think it has anything to do with the “societal” nature of Mass, but purely with the natural social pressure lines exert on us (or maybe its just me?).
Now I’m hardly in a hurry if that’s what you think -in fact, I love Mass, especially Holy Communion and the parts around it, so quite the opposite- but that’s exactly what throws me off while in line waiting to receive Communion. Normally I pray mentally and repetitiously, and that helps, but still you need to be conscious of the line (i.e., stepping forward), which makes even that difficult. Now, I think if there was a “break” before receiving Communion -something to break up the “line mentality”- that would certainly help; for example, maybe kneeling would do the trick? I hate feeling like “get it and go” but that’s what the Communion line often does make me feel like, and I hate that for obvious reasons, given the nature of Communion.
Anyone ever felt this way?
Now I’m hardly in a hurry if that’s what you think -in fact, I love Mass, especially Holy Communion and the parts around it, so quite the opposite- but that’s exactly what throws me off while in line waiting to receive Communion. Normally I pray mentally and repetitiously, and that helps, but still you need to be conscious of the line (i.e., stepping forward), which makes even that difficult. Now, I think if there was a “break” before receiving Communion -something to break up the “line mentality”- that would certainly help; for example, maybe kneeling would do the trick? I hate feeling like “get it and go” but that’s what the Communion line often does make me feel like, and I hate that for obvious reasons, given the nature of Communion.
Anyone ever felt this way?
P
Phemie
Guest
That is until Communion. Then the default, standing, kicks in. If we go with your interpretation, the congregation would have to remain kneeling (except to receive Communion) until after the final blessing and dismissal since nowhere is another posture indicated. But that doesn’t make sense since we always stand for the Prayer after Communion.
Rome has already indicated, in response to a question from a US bishop, that the posture we assume upon returning from Communion is up to us. We are free to kneel, stand, or sit.
T
Timothy17
Guest
Emphasis is mine.
The quote that you provided earlier, which I think you are referencing here again, is :
Size empahsis is mine.
D
DavidKays
Guest
I don’t think you need to leave. Catholics for some reason need to do this or do that so that the reception of the Lord will be more personally. I do not think receiving Jesus standing or kneeling really matters. It is that you are receiving Him period. That is more important. But it is important to you. Now I am an Eastern Christian and the tradition of my Church is that we receive Jesus standing. Now some if they do wish when they come up will kneel and this can happen. The Orthodox priest will gladly accept this. If your priest is opened to this then you can kneel when you approach him. Try not to be angry but try this approach. Kneeling does not involve alot of time so I don’t think it will be a problem for your priest. But do not spend too much time kneeling afterwards. Go back to your place in the Church and kneel there in thanksgiving. Priests find it difficult when they need to administer Our Lord and you are spending too much time up there contemplating Him still with your priest. No go back and do that contemplation there. You must be considerate with the others there. You can show Jesus your love at your own place where you are sitting and praying. Try not to do that in front of everyone when you have received Him. Yes you can receive Him kneeling but don’t stay there too long. Get up and do your thanksgiving back to your place in the pew. This shows consideration to the others there. God Bless!We just began worshiping in our newly-built church. We finally have kneelers, but during communion, it has been announced that we will be observing a new tradition of standing during communion and having the option to sit or kneel afterward. I am struggling with this as I find that the time after receiving Jesus is very personal and one-on-one time with Him and I use it to thank Him and listen for His voice. Isn’t this what this time is supposed to be for? Is there a liturgical law against standing during communion specifically? I don’t want to upset my parish priest, so I’m unsure of how to go about this. Do I just need to take my family elsewhere to worship?Thank you for your help.
P
Phemie
Guest
- The universal GIRM calls for kneeling only at Consecration. So from the start of the Eucharistic Prayer until the end of Mass the “default” posture is standing.
- The USCCB has asked for kneeling from after the Sanctus to after the great Amen. Then the posture reverts to the default, standing.
- The USCCB asked for kneeling after the Agnus Dei.
- That’s only until Communion which requires a change in posture and reverts to the default.
- Rome has already clarified that, while the normal posture when we return to our pew after receiving is standing until everyone had received and the period of silence starts, we are free to opt to kneel or sit instead.
P
Phemie
Guest
P
Phemie
Guest
C
Canto
Guest
Could you please quote the relevant passage from the GIRM that says standing is the norm. Thank-you.
- Status