Standing during Communion

[Canto]

That is until Communion. Then the default, standing, kicks in.

Where does the GIRM say this. Thank-you.

 

[Canto]

• The universal GIRM calls for kneeling only at Consecration. So from the start of the Eucharistic Prayer until the end of Mass the “default” posture is standing.

Again, not to be a pain, but can you supply the quote please. Have checked the Latin GIRM and find no mention of standing as the defult position.

• The USCCB has asked for kneeling from after the Sanctus to after the great Amen. Then the posture reverts to the default, standing.
• The USCCB asked for kneeling after the Agnus Dei.
• That’s only until Communion which requires a change in posture and reverts to the default.

Where does the GIRM require the change?

How do you know it is standing and not sitting for example that is the default? The **last postion mentiond **in the GIRM is kneeling. It does not then say to stand.

In Australia we kneel after the Agnus Dei with no option for the Bishop to change this. Then when it’s our turn to recieve Communion we get up from kneeling and walk down the isle. Some while waiting sit. On return to our pew we kneel or sit. I never see anyone standing except when they get up to join the line. In the Latin, US and OZ GIRM I find nothing that says to stand or that standing is the norm or default.

• Rome has already clarified that, while the normal posture when we return to our pew after receiving is standing until everyone had received and the period of silence starts, we are free to opt to kneel or sit instead.

Which document from Rome says standing is the norm?

 

[Canto]

So the GIRM calls for standing but not so rigidly as to forbid kneeling or sitting. All three postures are OK.

Again, where does the GIRM say to “stand” ? Not to be a pain, but I can’t see it anywhere.

 

[Canto]

Archbishop Chaput: See, I agree with you, but I thought this was confusing so I was just asking for a clarification. So the period of silence can begin as soon as you receive, if you want to go back and sit down, or kneel.

USCCB June 2001 meeting
adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html

 

[4elise]

I’ve read this thread and understand what some are concerned about. I think it would be helpful if those who are unhappy with the ‘change’ find out what the change of posture is meant to signify. I think when there is discord in the community it is often a case of poor cathechesis - but can be as much an unwillingness of individuals to humbly follow the instruction of the Church, holding fast to their personal preference or ‘tradition’.

Can we be respectful while standing, of course. Can we be prayerful while standing, of course. When our parish made this change the priest spent several weeks instructing us what it signified as reception of Communion was done as a community - this was not an individual experience - WE are one body, so when we act as one it speaks more clearly to this.

I think when people become focused on an issue like this it becomes a distraction - like the person who felt hurried in line, a distraction - to that individual I would suggest that they position themselves so they are among the last to receive so they can focus on what is really important in this moment. To those of you who feel you must kneel, kneel. I think the suggestion that you examine your motivation is a good one, is it prideful? is it I’ve got it right and the priest has it wrong? If it is the only way you feel you can show respect for Christ in the Eucharist - by all means go ahead - consider the possibility however that it is interpreted to be prideful, or a statement that you know better than the presider of the Mass.

As we all receive our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ today in the Eucharist may we humbly pray for each other and our intentions here at CAF. Keeping our focus on Who we are receiving - with the Community of Faithful - Blessings

 

[Canto]

those who are unhappy with the ‘change’

Some are saying that the GIRM does not say to stand so thus there would not be a change in posture

but can be as much an unwillingness of individuals to humbly follow the instruction of the Church

And the Church says kneel or sit, so some of us choose to kneel.

WE are one body, so when we act as one it speaks more clearly to this.

And we can act as one by kneeling too.

Now sure not everyone can kneel, but not every can stand either.

To those of you who feel you must kneel, kneel. I think the suggestion that you examine your motivation is a good one, is it prideful? is it I’ve got it right and the priest has it wrong? If it is the only way you feel you can show respect for Christ in the Eucharist - by all means go ahead - consider the possibility however that it is interpreted to be prideful, or a statement that you know better than the presider of the Mass.

Is it prideful to stand? Is the only way some feel they can show respect for Christ by standing etc, etc, etc.

In the US a Bishop may ask those in his diocese to stand but a Priest himself cannot ‘force’ people to stand. This addition to the GIRM is not in the Latin nor the Australian. Kneel after the Angus Dei says the GIRM, and then next it says to sit or kneel for the silence after Communion. No mention here of standing

Keeping our focus on Who we are receiving

Before we recieve Communion the Priest says…

“The Body of Christ.”

“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” Philipians 2:10

 

[johnnykins]

sigh
you really don’t get it
the priest has authority to implement things that are allowed in the Missal. there are several postures approved in the Missal, the norm being standing. the priest has authority based on what i quoted from the GIRM

I don’t get it - and you’re the one who thinks the Agnus Dei comes before the Eucharistic prayer? Right!

 

[StephenB]

we must analyze why

if the President of the United States walk into a room, do you kneel? no, you stand. in the North American culture, standing for someone is a sign of respect. moreover, standing is the norm for most, if not all, Eastern Catholics. so there is nothing disrespectful to God if we stand for Him. the point here is, there is nothing disrespectful nor wrong in standing.

now, given that fact, why should one be insistent on what one wants over what the priest asks us to do? since there is nothing wrong being asked, we should humbly submit to the authority of the priest presiding over the celebration of Mass

This is a wonderful sentiment. With one minor problem: The Mass is not the Priest’s to dictate how it will be celebrated. Only by direction of the Bp, and with proper authority, may the rite be changed. I am orginally from LA, and they made the change to standing many years after I left. It caused no little controversy among “traditionalists” even to the point of making the pages of the LA Times because of the controversy of priests publically denouncing parishioners who insisted on kneeling at the pointed indicated in the US edition of the Missale Romanum(?) for the NO. It boiled down to a question of obedience.

Since, based only on the information provided by the OP above, it appears to be the arbitrary intrucduction of the parish priest, it does not appear to be made with legitimate authority. Take the quesiton to the diocese and confirm that this is ratified by the local ordinary. (And be at peace in the whole process. I personally felt quite out of place when I visited home and went through this transformaation from kneeling to standing - but in short time, realized that the reverence of the situation was not dictated by physical posture of the body, but spiritual posture of my heart.)

 

[StephenB]

after the Agnus Dei is the Eucharistic Prayer
do you even go to Mass?
how many times to i have to say we’re talking about during communion, not the Eucharistic Prayer which is after the Agnus Dei

The Agnus Dei is after the EP - the Sanctus is before the EP (in the Roman rite anyway.)

 

[Phemie]

Again, not to be a pain, but can you supply the quote please. Have checked the Latin GIRM and find no mention of standing as the defult position.

Where does the GIRM require the change?

How do you know it is standing and not sitting for example that is the default? The **last postion mentiond **in the GIRM is kneeling. It does not then say to stand.

In Australia we kneel after the Agnus Dei with no option for the Bishop to change this. Then when it’s our turn to recieve Communion we get up from kneeling and walk down the isle. Some while waiting sit. On return to our pew we kneel or sit. I never see anyone standing except when they get up to join the line. In the Latin, US and OZ GIRM I find nothing that says to stand or that standing is the norm or default.

Which document from Rome says standing is the norm?

GIRM 43 universal version.
43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful;** from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren); before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.**

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the Homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

Nevertheless, it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and posturesdescribed in the Order of Mass to the culture and reasonable traditions of the people. The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration.

Where it is the practice for the people to remain kneeling after the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the priest says: Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), this practice is laudably retained.

That is the universal GIRM and the only place that it calls for kneeling is at the Consecration – other than that the posture from the “Orate, fratres” until the end of the Mass is standing but they may kneel or sit when they return from Communion. That’s what the dubium was all about: Was kneeling & sitting upon return from Communion forbidden by GIRM 43 which calls for standing? The answer, “While we’d like unity of posture, GIRM 43 does not forbid them from sitting or kneeling.”

Unfortunately, Rome has opted to only put the US English version of the GIRM on their website. It would have been much better if they had published the universal GIRM and appended the adaptations for the various countries.

Australia’s adaptation is thus:

In Australia apart from what is said above, the people are to sit from the Preparation of the Gifts until the completion of the priest’s invitation Orate fratres, and then stand from the beginning of the people’s response: “May the Lord accept…” to the end of the Sanctus. They then kneel from the completion of the Sanctus until after the Great Amen, and then stand from the beginning of the invitation to the Lord’s Prayer until the completion of the Agnus Dei, when they are to kneel again until the distribution of Holy Communion. During the sacred silence after the distribution of Holy Communion, they may either sit or kneel.

 

[Canto]

GIRM 43 universal version
Where it is the practice for the people to remain kneeling after the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the priest says: Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), this practice is laudably retained.

**laudably retained. **

This is the practice of OZ and US (except where a Bishop says otherwise) and my old 1962 Missal.

From the Ecce Agnus Dei we kneel until we get up for Communion and walk down the isle. Then we come back and sit or kneel for the sacred silence.

Australia’s adaptation is thus:
completion of the Agnus Dei, when they are to kneel again until the distribution of Holy Communion. During the sacred silence after the distribution of Holy Communion, they may either sit or kneel.

This is how the OZ Bishops interpret this passage…
I kneel at the end of Agnus Dei until I get up to have Communion distributed to me and then I return to my pew and kneel or sit for the sacred silence. Easy-peasy.

 

[4elise]

Some are saying that the GIRM does not say to stand so thus there would not be a change in posture

And the Church says kneel or sit, so some of us choose to kneel.

And we can act as one by kneeling too.

Now sure not everyone can kneel, but not every can stand either.

Is it prideful to stand? Is the only way some feel they can show respect for Christ by standing etc, etc, etc.

In the US a Bishop may ask those in his diocese to stand but a Priest himself cannot ‘force’ people to stand. This addition to the GIRM is not in the Latin nor the Australian. Kneel after the Angus Dei says the GIRM, and then next it says to sit or kneel for the silence after Communion. No mention here of standing

Before we recieve Communion the Priest says…

“The Body of Christ.”

“That at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” Philipians 2:10

The point I was trying to make, sorry must have missed the mark - is that it can be prideful to be unwilling to follow the direction of the presider - for example if it were a parish that had become accustomed to standing and the priest instructed that they should kneel - then it would be my inclination to follow the direction - to stand, then stand… assuming that there is a reason that either I am uninformed about or perhaps it was the preference – I follow that provided (naturally) that it is just a matter of a change like this - not something like stand on one foot while patting our heads

I think the only posture that really matters is that of the internal posture - gratitude and humility - Blessings.

 

[Canto]

The point I was trying to make, sorry must have missed the mark - is that it can be prideful to be unwilling to follow the direction of the presider - for example if it were a parish that had become accustomed to standing and the priest instructed that they should kneel - then it would be my inclination to follow the direction - to stand, then stand… assuming that there is a reason that either I am uninformed about or perhaps it was the preference – I follow that provided (naturally) that it is just a matter of a change like this - not something like stand on one foot while patting our heads

I think the only posture that really matters is that of the internal posture - gratitude and humility - Blessings.

People have a right to kneel (unless in the US ones Bishop has said otherwise). Conversley Priests have a right to express their opinions, for example, they might prefer people to recieve Communion on the tongue instead of in the hand.

Once one has carefully considered their opinion, it is not necessarily prideful to not adhere to the preference of the celebrant.

What is the reason to stand instead of to kneel? As the hymn says ‘down in adoration falling…’ If it ain’t broke, don’t try and fix it.

Internal posture

 

[4elise]

People have a right to kneel (unless in the US ones Bishop has said otherwise). Conversley Priests have a right to express their opinions, for example, they might prefer people to recieve Communion on the tongue instead of in the hand.

Once one has carefully considered their opinion, it is not necessarily prideful to not adhere to the preference of the celebrant.

What is the reason to stand instead of to kneel? As the hymn says ‘down in adoration falling…’ If it ain’t broke, don’t try and fix it.

Internal posture

I think your question as to the reason to stand instead of kneel was answered very early in this thread by others - i.e. culturally appropriate response – think the example was the way we show respect to people here in the west is not to kneel but to stand on their entrance - and that as a ‘COMMUNITY’ we are receiving ‘COMMUNION’ so - the discussion was not regarding not kneeling during the PRAYER and CONSECRATION (where every knee should bend) - but rather during the community reception of the Body of Christ. In a parish where the majority stand following reception I stand and prayerfully thank Jesus for coming to me, recognize that He has not only come for me but everyone else - and perhaps this reflection has been increased as a result of the catechesis that was offered on this point - if in a parish where the majority kneel, I kneel - what I was trying to say was that standing or kneeling can be held onto and can be a huge distraction - if it were something I was trying to ‘hold onto’ I would examine my reason - perhaps you have already - if I did it - I know my own heart - it would be prideful - so I am just working on that internal posture! May Our Blessed Lord continue to bless you - I wish you peace.

*Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ. *

The issue of standing or kneeling - in this life - should something that does not causes us any anxiety - together let us work joyfully to be people for others!

 

[Canto]

I think your question as to the reason to stand instead of kneel was answered very early in this thread by others - i.e. culturally appropriate response – think the example was the way we show respect to people here in the west is not to kneel but to stand on their entrance

Yet it’s not just any person but our Lord and God. The traditional practice in the Latin rite is to kneel and was even practiced in the 1960s.

When the Queen of England gives someone a knighthood they kneel in front of her for example.

and that as a ‘COMMUNITY’ we are receiving ‘COMMUNION’ so - the discussion was not regarding not kneeling during the PRAYER and CONSECRATION (where every knee should bend) - but rather during the community reception of the Body of Christ.

Yet we receive Christ individually at Communion, if that makes sense.

And via that Communion we are nourished in a very intimate way by Christ, who unites himself with us and becomes our companion along the way.

This of course is not to deny that the Eucharist strengthens the Body of Christ, but the moment of receiving Christ, under the Sacramental Veil of bread and wine, is something very personal. No one pays much attention to how I receive or what it means or does to me. They are receiving their Lord and thereafter giving thanks.

In a parish where the majority stand following reception I stand and prayerfully thank Jesus for coming to me, recognize that He has not only come for me but everyone else - and perhaps this reflection has been increased as a result of the catechesis that was offered on this point

This of course doesn’t change, or get diluted, if we kneel. If Jesus was standing in front of me I would kneel before Him. And in the Eucharist in a way He is standing before me.

Peace

 

[Suslar]

I’m a lifelong Catholic from the Midwest. My experience has been that it is the norm to kneel after the Angus Dei until after the last person has received, all remaining Hosts are reposed, and the Tabernacle is locked. So, I’m totally with the OP — I too would struggle with standing during that time immediately following reception of the Holy Eucharist. I use that time to pray and thank our Lord for His mercy. It would be DIFFERENT to have to stand. Just different – something I’m not used to. Please note, I didn’t say it was “right” or “wrong” – just not what I’ve done for my entire life.

Sadly, also like the OP, I’m not sure I’d like such a change. Despite the fact that other Catholics stand during the distribution of Communion and all the symbolism of “waiting” for each other and all that . . . I wouldn’t like the change. And, I just know I’d be one of the firsts in line to chat with the priest about his decision –not out of malice, not out of refusal to obey, but wanting to understand why. I like to be able to lower my head into my hands and truly concentrate on the Lord. While that can be done standing, it would not come naturally to me. I prefer to kneel.

I heard it said once that we sit to listen, we stand to worship and we kneel to adore . . . .

 

[Evan]

Yet we receive Christ individually at Communion, if that makes sense.

And via that Communion we are nourished in a very intimate way by Christ, who unites himself with us and becomes our companion along the way.

And yet it was St Paul that writes we receive from the one cup and the bread is broken so we can receive from the one loaf.

The introduction of the cup was an attempt to make more visible the reception of the body and blood (which can be done via the bread alone and was the tradition for many years)

The introduction of a common posture (standing while in line/while receiving/while others receive) is an attempt to make more visible the unity of the Body of Christ in the community.

 

[johnnykins]

The introduction of a common posture (standing while in line/while receiving/while others receive) is an attempt to make more visible the unity of the Body of Christ in the community.

Not really - the real reason was that certain prelates and priests believe kneeling was a medieval change that has no place in modern worship. They couldn’t get their preferred posture wholesale for the EP, but have adopted this tortured reading of the GIRM and its adaptation in the USA to impose this silly and tortured explanation to simply eliminate one more instance of kneeling.

 

[Phemie]

Not really - the real reason was that certain prelates and priests believe kneeling was a medieval change that has no place in modern worship. They couldn’t get their preferred posture wholesale for the EP, but have adopted this tortured reading of the GIRM and its adaptation in the USA to impose this silly and tortured explanation to simply eliminate one more instance of kneeling.

How is it a tortured reading of the GIRM if Rome has already said that while GIRM 43 says that we stand during the distribution of Communion to show unity, it’s not meant to be so rigid as to forbid kneeling or sitting?

 

[Evan]

Not really - the real reason was that certain prelates and priests believe kneeling was a medieval change that has no place in modern worship. They couldn’t get their preferred posture wholesale for the EP, but have adopted this tortured reading of the GIRM and its adaptation in the USA to impose this silly and tortured explanation to simply eliminate one more instance of kneeling.

I submit to your greater knowledge. Obviously, you must exist on a higher plane where you can read the intentions and thoughts of people you have never met. Poor son of God that I am, I have to rely on the writings and homilies of my bishop. From that I have to try to discern if what he says is a lie or if he, in fact, is telling me why he has asked us to adopt a common posture. My bad :doh2: