Standing up to a school bully

[PietroPaolo]

1. Yes men and women are different.
2. I am not a pacifist. Violence can be a moral imperative.
3. ok:shrug:

These threads come up occasionally and I am SHOCKED at the "catholic’ responses from parents that are “great job” you did the right thing by encouraging your kid to use violence!
“Teach him to be a man!”
It is sickening. And it is irresponsible parenting. We are to teach our children how to be saints. How to achieve heaven. Not how to stand up to a “bully” but here we have a problem. Everyone is assuming that the kid had exhausted all moral and diplomatic options, that the kid had a right to protect himself physically. Would it change your mind if you knew that the “bully” was a name caller but not violent? If he called him a vile name, maybe even a slur, would it be ok to use violence? How about if the bully was at his locker and the kid sucker punched him? Would that change your mind? Before we pretend that punching a bully in the face is some kind of rite of passage into being a “man” we ought to look at how we could stop this from happening. Bare knuckle hitting someone in the face can be lethal.
I am trained in firearms use. I can tell you that not only legally but morally it is a failure of all parties when a firearm is used.
This mentality of physical violence being masculine needs to stop. Because a parent who encourages a boxer to use his fists to break the face of another human outside of competition is not being a successful parent, Catholic or otherwise.

It is dangerous, irresponsible, and stupid.

That being said, bullies need to be stopped and I for one do not think the schools are doing a good enough job of it. However I do notice that it does not really occur in the business world. At least physically. Though there have been some directors of business I have worked with that I thin could use a good broken nose.

I never said it was okay to go around punching people in the face, in fact I mentioned the principal of proportionality, that any defensive action must be proportionate to the offensive action it is defending against, and even used the example of a bully calling a kid a few names not warranting the reaction of breaking his nose. I don’t think we really disagree as much as it might seem.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I never said it was okay to go around punching people in the face, in fact I mentioned the principal of proportionality, that any defensive action must be proportionate to the offensive action it is defending against, and even used the example of a bully calling a kid a few names not warranting the reaction of breaking his nose. I don’t think we really disagree as much as it might seem.

We probably are closer than we think but what would we do all day if we just each others posts.

I went back and read the OP. Do it. Some things stood out to me.

1. The OP is proud of his son.
2. The son, instigated the fight. He “challenged” the other boy to a fight. After school. With no immediate threat.
3. The son is a “trained” boxer. His hands are weapons.

Had it been my child who’s nose was broken, I would have sued and sued and sued. My kid would have been in confession with a broken nose for bulling and I would be driving around in the OPs car.

The more I think about this instance the less I like it. It sounds pretty avoidable to me and perhaps the son is kind of a bully too.
He is being left alone now, probably because he has a “rep” that his parents are proud of.

 

[Della]

We probably are closer than we think but what would we do all day if we just each others posts.

I went back and read the OP. Do it. Some things stood out to me.

1. The OP is proud of his son.
2. The son, instigated the fight. He “challenged” the other boy to a fight. After school. With no immediate threat.
3. The son is a “trained” boxer. His hands are weapons.

Had it been my child who’s nose was broken, I would have sued and sued and sued. My kid would have been in confession with a broken nose for bulling and I would be driving around in the OPs car.

The more I think about this instance the less I like it. It sounds pretty avoidable to me and perhaps the son is kind of a bully too.
He is being left alone now, probably because he has a “rep” that his parents are proud of.

The mitigating factor in all this is that the bully need not have accepted the challenge to fight. And we don’t know how good a fighter the bully was, either. I think people are making assumptions not evident in the facts. Remember the school suspended both boys, not just the one who broke a nose. If a broken nose stops a kid from bullying others, then it was well worth it, IMHO. Of course, I don’t encourage anyone to settle disputes through violence. But we are talking about kids here, who don’t have the maturity to deal with such problems. And there are some people who only learn their lessons the hard way. Both boys have been suitably punished, and hopefully lessons have been learned all around.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The mitigating factor in all this is that the bully need not have accepted the challenge to fight. And we don’t know how good a fighter the bully was, either. I think people are making assumptions not evident in the facts. Remember the school suspended both boys, not just the one who broke a nose. If a broken nose stops a kid from bullying others, then it was well worth it, IMHO. Of course, I don’t encourage anyone to settle disputes through violence. But we are talking about kids here, who don’t have the maturity to deal with such problems. And there are some people who only learn their lessons the hard way. Both boys have been suitably punished, and hopefully lessons have been learned all around.

If you have the maturity to be trained in boxing, you have the responsibility to use it correctly. There needs to be some reinforcement form the parents that this was not handled properly. But you are correct we will probably never know the real story. But what we do know is what the OP has told us. And from what he has told us, on a Catholic site, we should not be condoning it.
I find the OP’s pride in the breaking of anothers face telling. And his silent approval, wrong. The thing is, there is always ALWAYS someone bigger stronger faster and tougher than you or in this case, the son. Lets see that pride when the son is in the hospital. (sadly I know parents who would be proud.)

These days it starts on the school grounds with fists, but unfortunately it ends with guns and knives. Gone are the days of the schoolhouse fight. It can be a life changing or even life ending event nowadays. That is something some are not grasping.

 

[on_the_hill]

This is really difficult.

We’re taught:

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.

And yet, practical experience shows that this doesn’t work with bullies.

I’m not sure what the answer is. One time I watched as my (feminine) 6 year old daughter was with her friends in our yard, and a couple boys from the neighborhood came over to start trouble. My (feminine) daughter kicked one boy in the groin and yelled at him to leave them alone. I was glad she did it, but I couldn’t tell her that violence is the right way to resolve problems.

 

[Della]

If you have the maturity to be trained in boxing, you have the responsibility to use it correctly.

I was trained in the basics and I used no more force than what was necessary. You don’t have to beat someone to a pulp merely because you know how to box. Indeed, the trained boxer has no need to do so.

There needs to be some reinforcement form the parents that this was not handled properly.

The parent told his child he didn’t condone how his child handled the situation. He was merely proud that his kid didn’t let a bully go on pushing him around, and that is a legitimate attitude for it’s one of self defense, which is permissible and sometimes quite necessary.

But you are correct we will probably never know the real story. But what we do know is what the OP has told us. And from what he has told us, on a Catholic site, we should not be condoning it.

Because we can understand the situation as told to us does not mean we condone the behavior. Neither boy should have fought–it should have been taken to the parents first, but I think how it was handled after the fact was fine.

I find the OP’s pride in the breaking of anothers face telling. And his silent approval, wrong.

I didn’t get the impression that he was proud that his kid broke the other kid’s nose, but rather that he stood up for himself. He certainly may approve of the latter without approving of the former.

The thing is, there is always ALWAYS someone bigger stronger faster and tougher than you or in this case, the son. Lets see that pride when the son is in the hospital. (sadly I know parents who would be proud.)

Indeed, which is one good reason why violence should not be the first option or is necessarily the best one.

These days it starts on the school grounds with fists, but unfortunately it ends with guns and knives. Gone are the days of the schoolhouse fight. It can be a life changing or even life ending event nowadays. That is something some are not grasping.

That’s often the case, especially if no adults get involved in the situation. No one should want to settle disputes with violence, but we cannot let ourselves be perpetual victims of bullies, either. Schools are not really equipped to handle these things, IMHO. Parents need to step in to prevent such things by using their more mature judgment.

 

[cargau]

Elaborate on this please.

Overall, women have a more prominent role in the decision making process than they did in years past. Everything from congress to wall street to hospitals and universities, women have secured more prominent roles, and thus control many of the decisions that pertain to matters of policy and behavior.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but when I see zero tolerance for “violence” when a boy is bullied and responds by standing up for himself, I shudder. This is like mom saying “now, play nice”. But guys aren’t necessarily wired this way. I wouldn’t be surprised if, after the fight both the bully and the bullied became buddies. I know that happened on school playgrounds when I was a bit younger. Anyway, the fact that the Dad was proud of his son after the fight speaks volumes about how males see this issue. Frankly, if it was my son, I would have given him a thumbs up, too.

For those who felt that violence was a bad first option…I would be very surprised if the boy didn’t try to appease his tormenter, first. That is usually how it works. Very few turn to a punch in the nose unless they are frustrated with the success of other less physical tactics.

 

[Mumbles140]

I wouldn’t be surprised if, after the fight both the bully and the bullied became buddies. I know that happened on school playgrounds when I was a bit younger.

Presumably because one of the combatants was victorious, and who wants to stay enemies with someone that they know from experience can bloody them up…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Overall, women have a more prominent role in the decision making process than they did in years past. Everything from congress to wall street to hospitals and universities, women have secured more prominent roles, and thus control many of the decisions that pertain to matters of policy and behavior.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but when I see zero tolerance for “violence” when a boy is bullied and responds by standing up for himself, I shudder. This is like mom saying “now, play nice”. But guys aren’t necessarily wired this way. I wouldn’t be surprised if, after the fight both the bully and the bullied became buddies. I know that happened on school playgrounds when I was a bit younger. Anyway, the fact that the Dad was proud of his son after the fight speaks volumes about how males see this issue. Frankly, if it was my son, I would have given him a thumbs up, too.

For those who felt that violence was a bad first option…I would be very surprised if the boy didn’t try to appease his tormenter, first. That is usually how it works. Very few turn to a punch in the nose unless they are frustrated with the success of other less physical tactics.

I don’t know how old you are but your perception of women seems off to me. In the older days, women ran schools. Heck, nuns ran hospitals and schools. It is only recently that more men are becoming involved in elementary education. And where policies are made, at the district and governmental levels, it is heavily slanted to the male persuasion. Look up your school board. Dollars to donuts it is more men than women. There are 13,728 superintendents in the nation 1,984 are women. That is 14%. And guess how many women are in the classroom k-12? 72%!!! The administrators (read men) make up the rules here. The women, (teachers) have to abide by the pathetic incompetence of a broken system. Perhaps more women, those who spend their time directly with the young boys and girls should be given a more prominent role. Or would that offend the way you think genders are “wired?”

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but when I see zero tolerance for “violence” when a boy is bullied and responds by standing up for himself, I shudder. This is like mom saying “now, play nice”. But guys aren’t necessarily wired this way.

You have got to be kidding me! Guys are not wired by having a zero tolerance for violence!?
Have you met Jesus? Ghandi? MLK?
While Jesus and MLK may not be zero tolerance apparently they advocate for the “feminine” virtue that men are just not “wired” for. Talk about sexism!

Our LADY Queen of Peace pray for us!
PRINCE of Peace, lead, and forgive us!

 

[oldcatholicguy]

G’day. I have a teenage son who was bullied in school for a month. One day, he challenged this other boy to a fight after school (he trained in boxing) and he ended up breaking this bully’s nose. I was called up to the principal’s office along with the boy’s parents and both of them got suspended. I ended paying for that boy’s fractured nose. I didn’t scold my son (in fact I felt proud) about that incident and was I quietly applauding him for standing up for himself. Since then, he was left alone and no one bothered him since then. Was I right in condoning his behaviour? When I was growing up in grade school and high school, school bullying was something that happened in the shadows and which the school authorities refused to acknowledge. It was only when young kids started taking their lives (due to being bullied - even online) did education authorities had a wake-up call.

The answer depends a lot on the situation. Use of force should be the last resort. I’ve instructed my children that if the only way they can get someone stop such behavior is to use force than we (myself and my wife) would not punish our children if their first action after using force in order to get out of the situation is to report it and why they had to use it (and good luck to the school if they try to punish one of my children in such a situation). Sadly, sometimes the only way to deal with bad behavior of others is to resort to force. The force itself shouldn’t be applauded, but the standing up for themselves or others should be.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The parent told his child he didn’t condone how his child handled the situation. He was merely proud that his kid didn’t let a bully go on pushing him around, and that is a legitimate attitude for it’s one of self defense, which is permissible and sometimes quite necessary.

You need to go back and read the OP. I think you missed a few things.
Notably:

I didn’t scold my son (in fact I felt proud) about that incident and was I quietly applauding him for standing up for himself.

and

Was I right in** condoning **his behaviour?

(Bolding mine)

The OP also acknowledges that bullying can be a lethal event. However, he fails to see how it can be lethal and detrimental to engage in the violence.

I guess we can be Catholic on Sundays, but not in the schoolyard.

There is a difference between vengeance and justice. The OP gave no indication of handling this any other way than violence. In fact, I am hard pressed to fathom a situation where even if the school could not handle this that violence would be the Holy option. Because that is our job as parents.
But the OP is in Australia and I have seen Crocodile Dundee so maybe they really are stuck in the 1800s wild west. In that case, better tell Pa to strap some Iron on because the young bully’s pappy will come wanting to settle this like" men", at noon, at the “G’day corral”.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This is really difficult.

We’re taught:

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.

And yet, practical experience shows that this doesn’t work with bullies.

It is really difficult! You are correct. That narrow path usually is not the easy one!

Brings to mind John 6: As most Catholics should know by heart!
Verse 60

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

 

[cargau]

It is really difficult! You are correct. That narrow path usually is not the easy one!

Brings to mind John 6: As most Catholics should know by heart!
Verse 60

Oh, please! Even though the OP did not expound on prior tactics dealing with the bully, it’s hard to fathom that he didn’t say “stop it” or something to that effect. If the bullying was a one time deal, he would not have been called a bully.

Victims of bullying often struggle with depression and anxiety. Some even resort to self harming; even suicide because they don’t know how to respond. And, when parents and school administrators prevent them from using any form of a physical response, they are forced to just take it.

This is not a case of a random attack for the fun of it. This was a matter of self defense. I don’t care if the bullying involved name calling or stealing lunch money or whatever. I merited an effective response.

Bullies have their own issues. Bullies need to learn that bullying is not an option. Perhaps this incident is a valuable lesson learned. And, if the lesson was learned, maybe other kids are bully free today.

 

[maryjk]

This is not a case of a random attack for the fun of it. **This was a matter of self defense. ** I don’t care if the bullying involved name calling or stealing lunch money or whatever. I merited an effective response.

Bullies have their own issues. Bullies need to learn that bullying is not an option. Perhaps this incident is a valuable lesson learned. And, if the lesson was learned, maybe other kids are bully free today.

Self defense? I don’t know about that.

Self defense generally is in response to an attack. In this case the attacker was the OP’s son. In fact, it was the OP’s son that initiated the confrontation.

 

[Della]

Self defense? I don’t know about that.

Self defense generally is in response to an attack. In this case the attacker was the OP’s son. In fact, it was the OP’s son that initiated the confrontation.

Not quite. By bullying the OP’s son it was the bully who initiated the confrontation. The OP’s son merely challenged the bully to a fight, which the bully could have refused. It’s too bad it came to a broken nose, but it was a case of self-defense due to the repeated bullying he received.

 

[maryjk]

Not quite. By bullying the OP’s son it was the bully who initiated the confrontation. The OP’s son merely challenged the bully to a fight, which the bully could have refused. It’s too bad it came to a broken nose, but it was a case of self-defense due to the repeated bullying he received.

They effectively had pistols at dawn.

That is not self defense.

It was a planned attack.

 

[Della]

They effectively had pistols at dawn.

That is not self defense.

It was a planned attack.

Again, no, and there’s no need to exaggerate. It wasn’t a “planned attack” it was a challenge which the aggressor accepted and lost. Hopefully the bully learned that being a bully is not the way to be popular but it is the way to get yourself into a fight you may not win. It will curtail his desire to bully the next kid he wants to push around.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Again, no, and there’s no need to exaggerate. It wasn’t a “planned attack” it was a challenge which the aggressor accepted and lost. Hopefully the bully learned that being a bully is not the way to be popular but it is the way to get yourself into a fight you may not win. It will curtail his desire to bully the next kid he wants to push around.

Are you advocating that the bully should have tuned the other cheek?

 

[Della]

Are you advocating that the bully should have tuned the other cheek?

It’s what you’re advocating. If he had he’d have saved himself a broken nose.

 

[maryjk]

G’day. I have a teenage son who was bullied in school for a month. One day, **he challenged this other boy to a fight **after school (he trained in boxing) and he ended up breaking this bully’s nose.

Again, no, and there’s no need to exaggerate. It wasn’t a “planned attack” it was a challenge which the aggressor accepted and lost. Hopefully the bully learned that being a bully is not the way to be popular but it is the way to get yourself into a fight you may not win. It will curtail his desire to bully the next kid he wants to push around.

Yes, it was planned. He challenged the other boy to a fight. He trained to fight.

Then he broke the kid’s nose.

In other words, he planned the attack and went through with it.

I would have no problem, if the bully had pushed/shoved/hit/whatever the OP’s son, and the son, hauled off and decked the bully.

Heck, I still tell a story of when my own sister laid out a bully, for me. The bully ended up with stitches. It was great. He never bothered us again. But she hit him, when he started attacking, not before.

But what you are saying, is that the OP’s son is effectively a battered wife. That even when the bully is not a threat, it is okay to retaliate. I see that as wrong.