Staples White debate on Purgatory

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Let’s put it this way: How would YOU know if your tradition is correct in it’s definition of truth? Undoubtedly you would appeal to the antiquity of the Church and what has been defined as its ability to infallibly determine doctrine via Scripture and tradition. Yet, I wouldn’t buy it, considering I don’t see any reason to believe that your church’s distinctives are valid. You would say that same thing about mine. Therefore, there is a dilemma. How do we (you and I) know who is correct in our determinations? Answer: WE can’t! We must rely on God’s inerrant ability to guide His people to His truth. Hence, the Holy Spirit is the only One who can illumine. I believe that Scripture is the authoritative norm for weighing doctrine and right belief (even though human foibles and agendas may lead to differences) and you, on the other hand would believe that Scripture and tradition under the infallible interpretive authority of the church is your norm. Yet, we can’t both be right. Does this impede the Spirit’s ability to do as He said He would do?

I’m sure you can see what I mean ;).

CM
Man are you confusing and I cannot see what you mean! Why dont you pick a single truth that has been revealed to somebody at some point in time by the holy Spirit as true and share it with us. Otherwise, we can only assume that what you meant to say is that you have faith that the holy Spirit leads people to truth but that there is no way for any of us to know if or when this has ever happened. This latter position would simply render all of your comments regarding the debate and the truth of the HS as meaningless.

Blessings!
 
Was truth important to Jesus?
I think the difference boils down to whether *one believes Jesus, who is Truth, cared enough *about His followers to *ensure that they would have a way *to know for certain what is truth and what isn’t, especially when their is confusion and disagreement among believers as to what is true and what isn’t. Catholics believe Jesus did care enough to make such a provision; Protestants do not. We believe that Jesus loved us enough to do that.
 
Hi Semper!
Philthy,
What would your answer to the question be?
Thanks for asking!
I guess I wouldnt have an answer because I didnt listen to the whole debate! I can pick and choose issues that I thought were clearly good for one side or the other, but I would not use the term won or lost - it’s too subjective. But whatever my opinion was, I recognize that its merely my opinion and that has all sorts of bias. I will say that White’s main premise that the passage relates to a)ministers/preachers of the Gospel and b) their motivation, seemed insignificant and possibly irrelevant. The fact that it potentially referred to ministers of the Gospel - as opposed to other Christians - in no way addresses the fact that they are undergoing a purifying fire and actually sort of furthers the notion that they are likely “heaven bound” as, according to Catholic theology, everyone who passes through purgatory is. Secondly, I never heard a complete development of the idea that their “motivation” was being tested - that seemed to be purely speculative. Not necessarily bad, but speculative and, again, inconsequential. Motivations, like works, will also be “tested” at the judgement. They are all part of who we are, and only those worthy of God will remain when we enter into His Glory.
What did you think of it?

Blessings!
 
Let’s put it this way: How would YOU know if your tradition is correct in it’s definition of truth? Undoubtedly you would appeal to the antiquity of the Church and what has been defined as its ability to infallibly determine doctrine via Scripture and tradition. Yet, I wouldn’t buy it, considering I don’t see any reason to believe that your church’s distinctives are valid. You would say that same thing about mine. Therefore, there is a dilemma. How do we (you and I) know who is correct in our determinations?
I do see your point, CM. You’re saying that we both believe our traditions are proclaiming the truth, yet, in the end, you’re saying that all we have to rely on is Scripture.

The CC’s position, however, is that, yes, we certainly rely on Scripture, and what does Scripture say we must do? We must take it to the Church (of course you’re familiar with that verse!), right?

Therefore, when one group of people proclaimed, “You must be circumcized to be saved” and another group demurred, what was the paradigm used to determine the truth? Did Scripture have the final authority, or did the bishops in the church proclaim the truth at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15)?
 
A Protestant friend of mine notified me that James White addressed comments in this thread here on Catholic Answers Forum on his Monday show. He said White specifically mentioned me.

From White’s summary of the Monday show:*Started off with some of the very interesting comments made on the Catholic Answers Forums, and then moved to the specifics on the Staples debate…*I’ll have to give a listen when I get a chance. :o
 
I do see your point, CM. You’re saying that we both believe our traditions are proclaiming the truth, yet, in the end, you’re saying that all we have to rely on is Scripture.
Without disagreeing with your interpretation of CMs comments, I have no idea how you reached the conclusion that you did since CM never once mentioned that his approach was to “rely on Scripture” - in fact, all he did was note that Catholics rely on Scripture and Tradition without articulating, exactly, how his position was different. Furthermore, even if it were true, the claim that one “rely on Scripture” is bogus! It’s either:
a) a disingenous way of saying “I rely on the HS to lead me personally to all truth while I deny others( ie, the Pope) who disagree with me to make the same claim”, or, and I believe more typically…
b) an intellectual failure to recognize that all reading of Scripture goes through a personal filter of bias, ignorance, emotion, etc resulting in a personal opinion of what the truth is, shaped by the aforementioned factors and may or may not invlove guidance by the HS.
This is all actually OT, so I apologize. It just frustrates me when people toss out things like “the Holy Spirit enlightens us” as if that clarifies things and justifies their position on an issue and they dont actually think about how that enlightening occurs, how it is recognized, who the “us” is, etc etc

Blessings!
 
Let’s put it this way: How would YOU know if your tradition is correct in it’s definition of truth?
Good question. For a Catholic the answer is roughly as follows. There are basically two ways to know a truth of the faith: either through private revelation (ie personal, private revelation by the HS) or through other means. Lets discuss private revelation first. If someone receives private revelation, that is awesome, but it is…private! It is not something that they can share as if it were meant to be public revelation. No one else can claim another’s private revelation justifies their own understanding of an issue such as the truth of a verse of Scripture. Private revelation regarding such issues is relatively infrequent.
So how does a Catholic usually approach whether “if … tradition is correct in it’s definition of truth”? Its relatively simple - we use all of the usual God-given means to do so. We use Scripture along with our personal understanding of it aided by others, history , reliable witnesses (as determined after the completion of their mortal lives), and our reasoning. Sometimes this brings a level of knowledge regarding a truth, but usually - if one is honest - they will recognize that because of many factors regarding culture, language, translation etc - we simply cannot have complete certainty regarding our interpretation of whatever translation of Scripture we read to determine truth. At this point one must exercise faith: faith that God has not left us in such confusion without a means to know his Truth. It stands to reason that God would provide a means for us to know those things that He intended other than through personal opinion. Scripture reveals he did this through the Apostles and that the Apostles taught others and passed on to them-by the laying of hands- the responsibility of
succeeding them in teaching the faith. History reveals that the earliest Christians practiced this same design and that the trail of succession could only have come from one Church which remains today. Ultimately, though, the acceptance of the fact that that Church is the Catholic Church requires (apart from personal revelation) a degree of faith. This is so because even though all the historical data combined with our reasoning will point to this fact, we cannot know it with “absolute certainty”, but must accept it by faith.
Purgatory, which is a harmless, reasonable doctrine revealing that we get cleansed in a special way (by the merits of Christs Cross) after we have died and are personally judged but before we enter into Heaven. We can know it partially through reason but we will still have to accept, by grace through faith, it’s veracity as proclaimed by the Church.

Blessings!
 
With respect, do you accept that Mr.White has lost any of his debates?
I am sorry it too me so long to reply, but I didn’t realize someone had replied to me.

In going against Catholics? No. I do not believe White has “lost.” This is not to say I don’t believe the Catholics never had anything intelligent to say, but I do not believe White has lost.

That is my honest assessment.

Am I biased? Perhaps-- becasue I believe the Catholic Church has the Truth on their side. Consequently I believe it is on the Catholic apologist to be better prepared when they go up against White. I have not found them to be prepared sufficiently. Again, that is just my opinion.
 
No. I do not believe White has “lost.” This is not to say I don’t believe the Catholics never had anything intelligent to say, but I do not believe White has lost.
That is why I never listen to debates…ever. Debates are a more like a contest. There is too much pride involved.

The “winner” is usually the one with better debating skills.
 
On this whole how we can we KNOW the truth thing?

Isn’t the short answer for the Roman Catholic that he must go with whatever the church says is the truth? If you have a “private” revelation that goes against what the CCC or the Magisterial authority declares you can pretty much count that one out correct?

I would finish by saying neither the Catholics, Protestants, or the atheists can ever KNOW what the truth is for sure until they are dead.

So if there is some objective truth about life after death, everyone on this board could be wrong. You can only hope and pray you are right.
 
Ok, so I listened to the first 25 minutes of White’s Monday show when he addresses this thread. Incidentally, he was not taking calls except maybe at the end. I called his show that day and went into the press 1 for this 2 for that thing and didn’t hear where I could get on the show. Just as well, though cuz here goes…

White started out by creating a belittled fictional caricature of me, MarcoPolo, who supposedly only listened to Tim’s side of the debate and not his, that Catholics don’t read or listen to his arguments out of some fear apparently. He also thinks I called Catholic Answers the following day and that my voice “sounded familiar.” What’s ironic is that I deliberately skipped a lot of Tim’s parts to hear what White had to say. Don’t know what he’s talking about. He also is under a delusion that Catholic Apologists don’t want to debate him out of fear and that they will lose. On White’s own website, I counted 27 debates he’s done with Catholics. From the many times I’ve heard White speak, this is an obsession with him—needing to be recognized as supreme debater and that Catholics are afraid to debate him because he is “too scholarly” or “too good.” But that whole opening was all polemics, neither here nor there.

Anyway, of some substance, White addressed only a small part of my post, which he misunderstood. He went on again about the Greek word for “suffer loss” and insisted, as I also admitted in this very thread, that the word can mean suffer loss or punish. He is under the impression that if the word is translated “suffer loss” (which for crying out loud, the Catholic translations of my RSV-CE and NAB translate it as) it can therefore have no connotations related to punishment. And he repeatedly asserted in the debate that there is no sign of purification in this passage. He says to get the true meaning of that one word, you have to examine the context of the word. Agreed. And that’s where he abandons the rest of my post.

He never addressed anything I said about the figure of fire, silver and gold, and the metaphor of smelting, purification, cleansing, etc. in the passage.

As I also wrote in that post (which he also did not mention): “Is a person inflicted with fire simply being deprived of a reward? It’s almost too stupid to translate the passage that way, but White does.” He just went on that I don’t know Greek—but the funny thing is, granting him 100% of his explanation of the Greek, he still admitted he is left to determine if the context warrants punishment or any kind of purification or not. And that’s where his argument breaks down.

The rest of the opening is just him saying Catholics are blind and are unscholarly and he is brilliant and we should buy his books and Catholic Answers raises a lot of money, and quotes like “[Catholic Answers] cannot afford to have their darling apologists getting their heads handed to them in a debate,” or “Tim melted down in our debate on Papal infallibility” etc…etc…the usual polemics. He mentioned Randy Carson briefly and his conversation with Apologist78. Of Apologist78, he said: “Finally to see someone on the Catholic Answers Forum who is not so completely blinded by prejudice.” He praised most everything Apologist78 wrote except for the end of post 36 because White thinks he is right to not go beyond any literal meaning in Scriptural exegesis—which is partly where White derailed in this debate. You all saw the ECFs who recognized the cleansing nature of fire in this passage I posted earlier. I hardly think they had a blind prejudice.

One final point of interest was this quote that he also made toward the end of the debate (which of course I somehow didn’t listen to because I’m afraid to listen to any of his debate or read any of his stuff you know):*Did you all notice? Tim never touched the Jerome Bible Commentary. Never touched it. Never even made reference to it. It gives the exact same interpretation I did. He doesn’t touch it with a 10-foot pole.*Now, sifting through the usual polemical language here, consider this. First, if the JBC did agree completely with him, so what. It would be a rather isolated view from Catholic sources. But second, White said the JBC gives the “exact same interpretation” of 1 Cor 3:15 as him. You wonder if that was true, why James White argued against parts of that interpretation on his own website! The part of the JBC he argues against says, “Although the doctrine of purgatory is not taught in this passage, it does find support in it. The metaphor suggests an expiatory punishment–which is not damnation–for faults that, although not excluding salvation, merit punishment.” :rolleyes:
 
What a sad thing to say. 😦
Lol, you mean to say that it’s the thought of being wrong that’s sad. Yes, if we who are on this board are wrong about an after life it is a very a depressing thought indeed.

But I don’t think that’s the case.
 
Haha, Mickey.

One other thing I would like to clarify. White accused me in his Monday recap of incorrectly stating in post 10 that he spoke fast and incoherently like when I said “he tried to identify the ‘verb’ in 3:13 for ‘the fire’ which isn’t a verb.” White denied that he said this. Here is the quote from the debate MP3, starting around 23:43:*But please note, the verb used the fire is apokaluptetai. This is a term of revelation. It does not mean to purify.*So he was actually referring to the Greek word preceding the word fire, translated as “it shall be revealed” in the KJV. I stand by my comment that he speaks too fast and causes confusion. The way his words came out mean that he thinks with word for fire is apokaluptetai.

At any rate, the Greek word for fire in that verse is pur or puri (πῦρ).
 
No. The fact that you feel that the truth cannot be known for sure.
'zactly!

There seem to be a lot of non-Catholic Christians on this forum who feel that the Truth cannot be known.

I suppose that is to be expected when there’s now over 40,000 different Christian denominations, each proclaiming different (and sometimes contrary) truths.

Catholics who truly KNOW Jesus intimately–who become ONE FLESH with Him during the Eucharist–feel they have a better grasp of Truth. 🤷
 
No. The fact that you feel that the truth cannot be known for sure.
Well, at least I believe that there is truth out there to be known (which many relativists would disagree), so I’m already a little more on your side.

The message I meant to put across is that I cannot declare I’m 100% right about something or that there is no possibility that I am wrong about anything. If any of us thought like this they would never learn a single thing.
 
'zactly!

There seem to be a lot of non-Catholic Christians on this forum who feel that the Truth cannot be known. I was baptized Catholic and completed CCD so I have some street cred here bro.

I suppose that is to be expected when there’s now over 40,000 different Christian denominations, each proclaiming different (and sometimes contrary) truths. Are there any disagreements within the Roman Catholic Church on doctrine? Is someone right and someone wrong? And are those wrong excluded from the church?

Catholics who truly KNOW Jesus intimately–who become ONE FLESH with Him during the Eucharist–feel they have a better grasp of Truth. 🤷
Okay they FEEL they have a better grasp of truth. I’m fine with that statement

You guys are funny.

I didn’t say the truth could not be known. If there is truth out there then obviously it can be known.

I even FEEL very SURE about certain things (to use your words). But to claim I have infallible knowledge, well that is taking it to another level.

So, you also made some intersting comments above (see my comments in red)
 
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