Staples White debate on Purgatory

[Churchmouse]

Lest you think that it’s only Catholic sources that cite this statistic, here is an email from Gordon-Conwell seminary–a Protestant organization: (BB codes mine)

Email from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary “Global Christianity” to Ms. XXX, SFO (Secular Franciscan Order)
author of Lamp Unto My Feet to be published by PublishAmerica
Received 9/28/2007 11:17 a.m. MST

Hello Ms. XXX,

Thank you for your inquiry. I can assure you that[sign1] the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated. [/sign1]This number represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

More precise listings of denominations can be found in the World Christian Encyclopedia, under the article for each country. These lists are not exhaustive, as there are too many small denominations to list separately, but they should help give a clearer picture. Furthermore, the Southern Baptist Convention has over 40,000 congregations in the US alone; not to mention the Baptist General Conference, Baptist Bible Fellowship International, etc. So we are definitely not counting each congregation as its own denomination. We are also not lumping all Baptists into a single denomination, but counting each organization separately. I hope this information helps.

Justin J. Evans
Research Assistant
Center for the Study of Global Christianity

Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary
130 Essex Street #228
South Hamilton, MA 01982 USA
E-mail: csgc@gcts.edu

www.WorldChristianDatabase.org
www.GlobalChristianity.org
www.GCTS.edu
World Christian Encyclopedia

Evidently you didn’t read the articles by Svendsen and you seem to think that this resolves your mentioning the “40,000” you mentioned earlier. Svendsen’s articles exposes the epistemological fallacy Roman Catholics commit when stating such extravagant numbers and the critique they bring upon themselves as a result. So, don’t slight it. Read the article.

CM

 

[Churchmouse]

Ah. I see now where you are misunderstanding Catholic teaching. The CC does not claim that our pope is never going to err. However, *his office *is what has the gift of infallibility.

I qualified this by pointing out “faith and morals.” There is no misunderstanding. Regardless if we call it the “office” or whatnot, Catholicism teaches that the pope cannot err in matters of faith and morals.

Incidentally, you believe that men have been infallible (in their office), too. I can name at least 4 men you believe were infallible in the first century.

Not the same thing. These men were fallible but wrote “infallible” Scripture.

Actually, you also believe men were infallible in the 5th century as well.

No I don’t, but I’m sure you’ll find a way to twist this around perhaps.

CM

 

[Churchmouse]

PRmerger, I need to know: What makes your position correct and mine wrong?

CM

 

[brb3]

Catholicism teaches that the pope cannot err in matters of faith and morals.

Yes, we believe Christ as leader of the Universal Church, inspired Peter and his successors to speak via the Spirit of Christ … on matters of Faith & Morals.

You / I don’t have such a guarantee. I’ve been wrong in past about many of my former Protestant understandings. I’ve learned to accept the Chruch has the authority in these matters … and its my responsibility to bring my errant ideas into conformity with the Church teachings.

You too will someday do the same … once Christ leads you to your epiphany re: Catholic Church and its teachings.

 

[Churchmouse]

Yes, we believe Christ as leader of the Universal Church, inspired Peter and his successors to speak via the Spirit of Christ … on matters of Faith & Morals.

Well, we know that Peter (not successors) was inspired (he wrote Scripture) and, even then, he undeniably messed up on a matter of faith (his negligence legitimized the Judaizers) .

You / I don’t have such a guarantee. I’ve been wrong in past about many of my former Protestant understandings. I’ve learned to accept the Chruch has the authority in these matters … and its my responsibility to bring my errant ideas into conformity with the Church teachings.

There is no guarantee, thus any man, including the pope and his office are subject to error.

You too will someday do the same … once Christ leads you to your epiphany re: Catholic Church and its teachings.

Well, so far, it has worked in reverse

CM

 

[brb3]

Well, so far, it has worked in reverse

Become a man, not a mouse … a bonafide CHURCHMAN …

 

[Churchmouse]

Become a man, not a mouse … a bonafide CHURCHMAN …

It’s just a moniker. Rest assured, I am a bonafide Christian.

CM

 

[ericcantona71]

Check this bizarre video out, a Protestant Pastor affirming purgatory and then mysteriously denying it:

youtube.com/watch?v=wRM_Kn2PQsU&feature=related

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger, I need to know: What makes your position correct and mine wrong?

CM

Because my position is the position of the Apostles, handed down over the past 2000 years.

 

[PRmerger]

I have been saying that debates are debates and you accept the one who makes the better argument through Scriptural exegesis.

We are agreed on this.

 

[PRmerger]

Is this a discussion? It seems rather one-sided, don’t you think?

It seems that if you’re feeling you have no voice in this discussion it’s because you’re feeling a bit defeated?

Upholding means to defend the simple truth of Scripture. It doesn’t mean that we will agree on all things, considering the differences in understanding on certain things throughout history, but in the essential things needed for salvation.

Where does Scripture tell us what’s an essential doctrine for salvation?

For example, is Malachi 1:11 necessary for salvation? If not, how do you know? If so, where does Scripture tell you this?

What about John 6:51? Is that necessary for salvation? And how do you know?

 

[PRmerger]

If you cannot understand what I’m saying, maybe the problem lies on your part.

Fair enough.

Why not give me your understanding and we’ll go from there.

My understanding is that you have cited the HS as the source of your truth. That seems self-serving to me, for anyone can read the Scriptures, claim to be inspired by the HS, and then come to a false understanding of God. For example, the JWs have read the very same sciptures you have, claim inspiration by the HS, and then come to some very bizarre doctrines based on this.

This is the paradigm that you have espoused. You have no basis to claim that the JWs have any less authority than your own fallible, man-made, non-authoritative interpretations. They’re all equally “authoritative” in your paradigm.

 

[PRmerger]

Thanks Redrum, but my guess is that it will fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes considering the medium ),

CM

Pssst! Here’s a little secret: it’s in poor taste to talk about a lady as if she’s not in the room. Did you know I can hear everything you’re saying about me?

Your poor mama is shaking her head in shame. :sad_yes:

 

[PRmerger]

Well, we know that Peter (not successors) was inspired (he wrote Scripture)

He, a* mere man,* was infallible, then, when he wrote on faith and morals, CM?

 

[PRmerger]

Evidently you didn’t read the articles by Svendsen and you seem to think that this resolves your mentioning the “40,000” you mentioned earlier. Svendsen’s articles exposes the epistemological fallacy Roman Catholics commit when stating such extravagant numbers and the critique they bring upon themselves as a result. So, don’t slight it. Read the article.

CM

How many Christian denominations do you believe is the actual number, CM?

 

[Churchmouse]

Because my position is the position of the Apostles, handed down over the past 2000 years.

No it isn’t. You’ve just accepted that it is. To me, these are just the same buzzwords that I’ve been hearing for years. It means nothing.

CM

 

[PRmerger]

Not the same thing. These men were fallible but wrote “infallible” Scripture.

Exactly! Just like our Magisterium consists of fallible men who have been given the gift of infallibly preserving God’s revelation.

No I don’t, but I’m sure you’ll find a way to twist this around perhaps.

CM

Each and every time you quote Scripture you are giving tacit approval to the CC’s ability to infallibly declare the canon of Scripture, which it did in the 5th century.

Each and every time you proclaim that the Didache is not inspired, or that the Gospel of Thomas is not theopneustos, or that the Acts of Paul and Thecla are not Scripture, you are accepting the infalliblity of the CC’s Council which delcared that they are not Scripture.

 

[Churchmouse]

It seems that if you’re feeling you have no voice in this discussion it’s because you’re feeling a bit defeated?

You resort to vain quips because you don’t want to interact. I don’t think there was much of a battle to make assertions about defeat.

Where does Scripture tell us what’s an essential doctrine for salvation?

More questions.

For example, is Malachi 1:11 necessary for salvation? If not, how do you know? If so, where does Scripture tell you this?

And still more questions.

What about John 6:51? Is that necessary for salvation? And how do you know?

Yeeech! More questions.

CM

 

[PRmerger]

You resort to vain quips because you don’t want to interact. I don’t think there was much of a battle to make assertions about defeat.

More questions.

And still more questions.

Yeeech! More questions.

CM

That’s what the purpose is for the CAFs–questions/answers/dialogue/discussion.

If you feel that it’s wrong for me to pose questions to you, you have recourse to the Mods.

However, I suggest that you think twice about reporting me for asking questions…

 

[PRmerger]

So, CM, where is this list of “essential doctrines for salvation” listed in Scripture?