Staples White debate on Purgatory

[PRmerger]

PR, I want you to read what I am about to type very slowly. ** BOTH your link and the email you have referenced are based on the WCE.** Period! You don’t have to do a search, you only have to click on YOUR link that YOU use. I mean this is hilarious! I am now amazed that you are still in denial over this. You really should be a politician.

You, Red, kept bringing up the encyclopedia. And bringing it up. And when you asked if that was my reference (trying to bait me, and I didn’t bite! ) I said…nope. And I gave you the website that I used as my reference: bringtoyouapologetics.com. Not the worldchristianencyclopedia.com, if it even exists.

I have not read the WCE, so it would be disingenuous of me to cite it.

In fact, you acknowledge that it’s a different source here:

Well, this source says 33,000 not 40,000.

Again, if you want to read the WCE, referenced on the website I cited, knock yourself out.

I think I am being quite accommodating and charitable when I post this:

[SIGN1]Your Total “Christian Denominations” Count for today is 41398
Please pray for Christian unity (John 17; Eph 4:5; Matt 16:18)[/SIGN1]

for I believe that the number is actually grossly, tremendously UNDERESTIMATED. But, as I have no website to back up my opinion for what it actually is, I will continue to use the numbers provided here.

 

[Redrum]

You, Red, kept bringing up the encyclopedia. And bringing it up. And when you asked if that was my reference (trying to bait me, and I didn’t bite! ) I said…nope. And I gave you the website that I used as my reference: bringtoyouapologetics.com. Not the worldchristianencyclopedia.com, if it even exists.

I have not read the WCE, so it would be disingenuous of me to cite it.

In fact, you acknowledge that it’s a different source here:

Again, if you want to read the WCE, referenced on the website I cited, knock yourself out.

I think I am being quite accommodating and charitable when I post this:

[SIGN1]Your Total “Christian Denominations” Count for today is 41398
Please pray for Christian unity (John 17; Eph 4:5; Matt 16:18)[/SIGN1]

for I believe that the number is actually grossly, tremendously UNDERESTIMATED. But, as I have no website to back up my opinion for what it actually is, I will continue to use the numbers provided here.

Well I don’t know what else to say. You deny the WCE as your source and yet you STILL link everyone to a websites based on the WCE. I guess I can just copy and paste the first line of the page that you point everyone to and let the reader decide what the source is:

The Facts and Stats on “33,000 Denominations”
by PhilVaz
Now for a few facts and stats from the actual source: World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).

Now I’m happy to have discussions for learning but this one is dead, at least for anyone who can read and with an honest brain to tell them what thy just read. I’m actually surprised non of the good honest catholics on here haven’t called you out on this one.

 

[Churchmouse]

C-mouse … are you a serious bible scholar or apologist ? Here’s your wakeup call ! Just came across a good piece of apologetic cheeze for you.

Spend 55 minutes digesting this info from a Protestant PhD, whose area of expertise is the Protestant Reformation Then, you will be prepared to start facing reality and beginning a ‘serious’ JOURNEY toward becoming a Churchman.

Link: www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?audiofile=jh_02082010.mp3&source=seriessearchprog.asp&seriesID=-6892289&TI=journey.

I will listen to it when I get the chance, maybe tonight, but you may as well know that it really isn’t going to factor much. I have already made my peace with “purgatory” and have dissected and researched it historically, biblically, and logically. I KNOW that such a process, state, place, etc. doesn’t exist and isn’t valid. A Protestant who became a Catholic isn’t going to have any affect on me in regards to purgatory as a Catholic who becomes Protestant would have an affect on you regarding any Evangelical distinctive.

CM

 

[PRmerger]

Well I don’t know what else to say. You deny the WCE as your source and yet you STILL link everyone to a websites based on the WCE. I guess I can just copy and paste the first line of the page that you point everyone to and let the reader decide what the source is:

The Facts and Stats on “33,000 Denominations”
by PhilVaz**
Now for a few facts and stats from the actual source: World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).

Now I’m happy to have discussions for learning but this one is dead, at least for anyone who can read and with an honest brain to tell them what thy just read. I’m actually surprised non of the good honest catholics on here haven’t called you out on this one.

Well, I suggest, then, that you quit sqawking about the 40,000 Christian denomination statistic, until you can provide a valid alternate number.

But, after asking for this information, and asking for this information, and asking for this information, and asking for this information, and asking for this information and asking for this information…sigh!… nothing has been forthcoming! It would be comical if it weren’t so absurd.

Svendsen’s articles, as far as I can tell, said nothing like, 'The actual number of Christian denominations is _________"

If you can scramble up some valid statistics/methodology before Lent (better hurry!) I will entertain and consider that the number is actually ___________. I’m going to give up the CAFs for Lent…so after Fat Tuesday (Feb 16) I will be incognito for 40 days. Although time on CAFs is always a blessing, during Lent I feel called to spend that time in prayer.

But I’ll be back after Easter, God willing!!

**Please note who is the author of my source. NOT the WCE.

 

[Byzman]

I have already made my peace with “purgatory” and have dissected and researched it historically, biblically, and logically. I KNOW that such a process, state, place, etc. doesn’t exist and isn’t valid. CM

Wow, me too! I have researched it historically, biblically, and logically…except I came to a different conclusion, I know that such a state of existence exists.

So one of is right, and the other is wrong.

 

[Byzman]

Sure, The historian Jacques Le Goff writes:

“Some writers have credited Cyprian with making an important doctrinal contribution to Purgatory as early as the mid-third century. In his Letter to Antonian [Letter 51:20] Cyprian distinguishes between two kinds of Christians: ‘It is one thing to await forgiveness and another thing to arrive in glory; it is one thing to be sent to prison [in carcere] to be let out only when the last farthing has been paid and another thing to receive immediately the reward of faith and virtue; it is one thing to be relieved and purified of one’s sins through a long suffering in fire and another thing to have all of one’s faults wiped out by martyrdom; and it is one thing to be hanged by the Lord on Judgment Day and another to be crowned by him at once.’…Jay’s refutation of the notion that Cyprian put forth a doctrine akin to that of Purgatory seems to me well founded. According to Jay, what is being discussed in the letter to Antonian is the difference between Christians who did not stand up to persecution (the lapsi and apostates) and the martyrs. It is not a question of ‘purgatory’ in the hereafter but of penitence here below. The reference to imprisonment has to do not with Purgatory, which in any case did not yet exist, but rather with the penitential discipline of the Church.” (The Birth of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], pp. 57-58)

Cyprian repeatedly refers to believers going to Heaven when this life ends. For example:

“But, beloved brethren, this is so, because faith is lacking, because no one believes that the things which God promises are true, although He is true, whose word to believers is eternal and unchangeable. If a grave and praiseworthy man should promise you anything, you would assuredly have faith in the promiser, and would not think that you should be cheated and deceived by him whom you knew to be stedfast in his words and his deeds. Now God is speaking with you; and do you faithlessly waver in your unbelieving mind? God promises to you, on your departure from this world, immortality and eternity; and do you doubt? This is not to know God at all; this is to offend Christ, the Teacher of believers, with the sin of incredulity; this is for one established in the Church not to have faith in the house of faith. How great is the advantage of going out of the world, Christ Himself, the Teacher of our salvation and of our good works, shows to us, who, when His disciples were saddened that He said that He was soon to depart, spoke to them, and said, ‘If ye loved me, ye would surely rejoice because I go to the Father;’ teaching thereby, and manifesting that when the dear ones whom we love depart from the world, we should rather rejoice than grieve. Remembering which truth, the blessed Apostle Paul in his epistle lays it down, saying, ‘To me to live is Christ, and to die is gain;’ counting it the greatest gain no longer to be held by the snares of this world, no longer to be liable to the sins and vices of the flesh, but taken away from smarting troubles, and freed from the envenomed fangs of the devil, to go at the call of Christ to the joy of eternal salvation…We should consider, dearly beloved brethren - we should ever and anon reflect that we have renounced the world, and are in the meantime living here as guests and strangers. Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise and the kingdom. Who that has been placed in foreign lands would not hasten to return to his own country? Who that is hastening to return to his friends would not eagerly desire a prosperous gale, that he might the sooner embrace those dear to him? We regard paradise as our country - we already begin to consider the patriarchs as our parents: why do we not hasten and run, that we may behold our country, that we may greet our parents? There a great number of our dear ones is awaiting us, and a dense crowd of parents, brothers, children, is longing for us, already assured of their own safety, and still solicitous for our salvation. To attain to their presence and their embrace, what a gladness both for them and for us in common! What a pleasure is there in the heavenly kingdom, without fear of death; and how lofty and perpetual a happiness with eternity of living! There the glorious company of the apostles - there the host of the rejoicing prophets - there the innumerable multitude of martyrs, crowned for the victory of their struggle and passion - there the triumphant virgins, who subdued the lust of the flesh and of the body by the strength of their continency - there are merciful men rewarded, who by feeding and helping the poor have done the works of righteousness - who, keeping the Lord’s precepts, have transferred their earthly patrimonies to the heavenly treasuries. To these, beloved brethren, let us hasten with an eager desire; let us crave quickly to be with them, and quickly to come to Christ. May God behold this our eager desire; may the Lord Christ look upon this purpose of our mind and faith, He who will give the larger rewards of His glory to those whose desires in respect of Himself were greater!” (Treatises, 7, On the Mortality, 6-7, 26)

I do not see here how St. Cyprian is denying purgatory.

 

[Byzman]

Cyprian repeatedly refers to believers going to Heaven when this life ends.

St. Cyprian beleived in praying for the dead, otherwise why would he speak of not praying for the repose of a certain abuser.

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.iv.lxv.html

And therefore, since Victor, contrary to the rule lately made in council by the priests, has dared to appoint Geminius Faustinus, a presbyter, his executor, it is not allowed that any offering be made by you for his repose, nor any prayer be made in the church in his name, that so the decree of the priests, religiously and needfully made, may be kept by us; and, at the same time, an example be given to the rest of the brethren, that no one should call away to secular anxieties the priests and ministers of God who are occupied with the service of His altar and Church.

To pray for the dead means that there is still something that must be accomplished for the person that the prayers are intended for.

 

[Redrum]

Well, I suggest, then, that you quit sqawking about the 40,000 Christian denomination statistic, until you can provide a valid alternate number.

But, after asking for this information, and asking for this information, and asking for this information, and asking for this information, and asking for this information and asking for this information…sigh!… nothing has been forthcoming! It would be comical if it weren’t so absurd.

Svendsen’s articles, as far as I can tell, said nothing like, 'The actual number of Christian denominations is _________"

If you can scramble up some valid statistics/methodology before Lent (better hurry!) I will entertain and consider that the number is actually ___________. I’m going to give up the CAFs for Lent…so after Fat Tuesday (Feb 16) I will be incognito for 40 days. Although time on CAFs is always a blessing, during Lent I feel called to spend that time in prayer.

But I’ll be back after Easter, God willing!!

**Please note who is the author of my source. NOT the WCE.

I never claimed to have a number, that was you and your link.

 

[PRmerger]

I never claimed to have a number, that was you and your link.

Then quit yer squawking.

If you don’t have an alternative, then I’ll take my number, thank you very much!

[SIGN1]Your Total “Christian Denominations” Count for today is 41398
Please pray for Christian unity (John 17; Eph 4:5; Matt 16:18)[/SIGN1]
Source: –NOT the WCE! PhilVaz

 

[PRmerger]

I never claimed to have a number, that was you and your link.

Just so you know, Red, mathematically, the number of possible Christian denominations–based on a nonexhaustive list of 21 differing doctrines–is in the hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of thousands! That makes 40,000 seem quite possible, does it not?

Originally Posted by PRmerger
Here’s a list compiled by Prodigal Son1

There are many different doctrines.

Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. unitarianism
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves)

OY - then that would be 2 to the 21st??? :hypno:

Peace
James

 

[MarcoPolo]

If you don’t have an alternative, then I’ll take my number, thank you very much!

The number, depending on how one slices it can range from 5,000 to 9,000 to tens or hundreds of thousands if one counts anyone who goes by “The Bible + Me”. PhilVaz compiled some of the denominations by name in an Excel spreadsheet you can download here.

At any rate, if one wants to argue it’s “only” 5,000 instead of 40,000 or whatever, the Catholic point on this remains the same.

But aren’t you guys off-topic anyway?

 

[PRmerger]

The number, depending on how one slices it can range from 5,000 to 9,000 to tens or hundreds of thousands if one counts anyone who goes by “The Bible + Me”. PhilVaz compiled some of the denominations by name in an Excel spreadsheet you can download here.

At any rate, if one wants to argue it’s “only” 5,000 instead of 40,000 or whatever, the Catholic point on this remains the same.

Yep! That’s true, Marco.

I am a numbers person and like idea that we do know how many Christian denominations there are.

I have seen PhilVaz’s list before. Quite interesting.

And, while 5000 denominations may be crazy and tells us that “the HS will lead me to all truth” definitely does not work…40,000 is obscene.

(and there’s no way could it be true that there’s just 5000–there’s probably just 5000 in my metropolitan area by itself. Each of these 5000 is in no way connected doctrinally to 5000 Christian denominations in the next large metropolitan area),

But aren’t you guys off-topic anyway?

I think the Mods allow some tangential discussions in any thread.

 

[Redrum]

The number, depending on how one slices it can range from 5,000 to 9,000 to tens or hundreds of thousands if one counts anyone who goes by “The Bible + Me”. PhilVaz compiled some of the denominations by name in an Excel spreadsheet you can download here.

At any rate, if one wants to argue it’s “only” 5,000 instead of 40,000 or whatever, the Catholic point on this remains the same.

But aren’t you guys off-topic anyway?

Way off topic and I’m going to ease my way out of this one.

But I must say that I do like your equation. Would you then come to the conclusion that “Roman Catholic Church + Me = Replicates??” When I look at these two equations I like the idea that one of these variables (Bible) doesn’t change while man is subject to grievous error in both. The church has clearly made mistakes and erred (you may deny this somehow) while Scripture has yet to have any “egg on it’s face” for lack of a better term.

 

[PRmerger]

Way off topic and I’m going to ease my way out of this one.

But I must say that I do like your equation. Would you then come to the conclusion that “Roman Catholic Church + Me = Replicates??” When I look at these two equations I like the idea that one of these variables (Bible) doesn’t change while man is subject to grievous error in both. The church has clearly made mistakes and erred (you may deny this somehow) while Scripture has yet to have any “egg on it’s face” for lack of a better term.

If the CC has erred, then you cannot trust even the Scriptures, for it was the CC that told you that the Gospel of Mark is theopneustos but that the Gospel of Thomas is not.

 

[Redrum]

If the CC has erred, then you cannot trust even the Scriptures, for it was the CC that told you that the Gospel of Mark is theopneustos but that the Gospel of Thomas is not.

Well, actually Scripture does claim to be the Word of God without the CC telling me so (see also 2 timothy 3:16), but I don’t even think anyone on this board doubts that Bible is self-authenticating in this respect. So I don’t need the CC to explain this to me.

Perhaps you’re trying to say that the CC put the Canon together and I wouldn’t know which books were which or something? I’m not sure…trying to help you out with your arguments now, ha ha.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, actually Scripture does claim to be the Word of God without the CC telling me so (see also 2 timothy 3:16), but I don’t even think anyone on this board doubts that Bible is self-authenticating in this respect. So I don’t need the CC to explain this to me.

Perhaps you’re trying to say that the CC put the Canon together and I wouldn’t know which books were which or something? I’m not sure…trying to help you out with your arguments now, ha ha.

Yes, thank you!

Does the Gospel of Mark tell you it’s theopneustos and the Gospel of Thomas say it’s not?

Of course not!

So, without a table of contents that fell from the sky, you have to rely on something beyond Sacred Scripture–something called Sacred Tradition–to know what’s theopneustos.

 

[MarcoPolo]

man is subject to grievous error in both.

We both agree that God can preserve man from error----just like He did with the men who penned the Scriptures you and I both agree are without error.

 

[SunnaB16]

Well, actually **Scripture does claim to be the Word of God **without the CC telling me so (see also 2 timothy 3:16), but I don’t even think anyone on this board doubts that Bible is self-authenticating in this respect. So I don’t need the CC to explain this to me.

That`s circular. Lots of books claim to be the Word of God.
“Self-praise is no recommendation”
It requires an outside authoritative source.

The Church is full of sinners, but as an Entity, the Mystical Body of Christ, it has never erred re Faith and Morals.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Dr. White:

He probably would disagree for example with Richard McBrien when he said, “ basis for it.biblical” He would just simply dismiss those folks.

Whether Tim dismisses this comment from Fr. McBrien (he didn’t have a chance to say one way or the other), I do not know. But I certainly dismiss it. It is directly contrary to the Catechism of the Council of Trent, which states that the “truth of this doctrine” is “founded, as holy Councils declare, on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition” (Article V – He Descended into Hell, The Third Day He Rose Again from the Dead). The Catechism tells us that the councils declare and tradition confirms, but that purgatory’s sole foundation is in Scripture. If the biblical basis isn’t clear for Fr. McBrien, then he should sincerely take heed to this instruction and give more thought to what he has read in the Bible.

By the way, this is the priest who wants to affix the disparaging “pro-birth” label to the entire prolife movement: “, has not worked.the so-called pro-life movement, which is really a pro-birth movement” From what I’ve read of his, I’ve found very little to be helpful.

White: I would agree that this is at the final judgment. The “Day” of verse 13 – “for the Day will show it” – I do believe ἡμέρα there is clearly the Day of the Lord, it is the Day of Judgment. So, I would agree with the caller…

Staples: Yeah, I would say that on the literal level that St. Paul is talking about the Day of Judgment. But we can also, by allusion, refer to this text not only to the final judgment but also to the particular judgment that each one of us will face at the moment that we die. And so, you receive a reward long before the final judgment. In other words, as soon as you die as we see in Luke 16 you know when Jesus talks about the rich man and Lazarus when they die immediately they go one to paradise and the other to hell there. So I think this text can apply to either the final judgment or the particular judgment.

I have a different thought on this. “It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Hebrews 9:27). I believe that this is the judgment (the particular judgment) that Paul has in mind because he tells us in Chapter 4 of 1 Corinthians not to “pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes” (v. 5), and in Chapter 7 he says that “the appointed time has grown very short” (v. 29). It appears to me that he is talking about the same “time” here. If this is the case, then unless one thinks that Paul was wrong about the Second Coming, the most plausible solution is to think that this “time” refers to the time of His coming to us at our death, which is “very short” to come for all of us. “For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed… the day is at hand” (Romans 13:11, 12). The “Day” in 1 Corinthians 3:13 is our encounter with Christ the Judge at our death, which is a single day for all of us when considered individually.

I think that this is it for my interaction with this debate. I have used the Scriptures alone to expound this doctrine. I’ve tried to relate everything I’ve said to the text of 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, referring to other texts as they were pertinent to our understanding of the former one.

By the way, anything that’s been underlined in my posts on this thread is a hyperlink, not an emphasis.

If anyone is struggling in their faith and would like me to take up another point, or feels that I didn’t handle one of the objections well enough, please let me know if you think I could help.

If anyone has read my posts and would like to engage me on any of the points I’ve tried to make, feel welcome to!

Lay it Down - Thank God for Matt Maher!

By the grace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ toward us,
Pete

 

[PRmerger]

That`s circular. Lots of books claim to be the Word of God.
“Self-praise is no recommendation”
It requires an outside authoritative source.

Indeed. The Koran states it’s the Word of God, too, does it not?

Each and every time anyone quotes the Scriptures (believing that they are the inspired word of God) they are giving tacit approval to the CC. They are giving approval to Sacred Tradition.

As St. Augustine said, “I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church”