Star Wars Ep 3 - What if... (spoilers)

[Bobby_Jim]

I just saw “Revenge of the Sith” on Friday, and I have the following hypothetical question(s).

If Anakin had not shown up and interfered, could Mace Windu really have executed Palpatine once he had him disarmed and backed into a corner?

#1) Would Palpatine have had some other trick up his sleeve to counter-attack? (I don’t think the lightning bolts could have held off Windu forever)

#2) If Windu had dispatched Palpatine, who was at that point unarmed, would this have set Windu down the path of the Dark Side? Note the parallel to Anakin killing the disarmed Count Dooku - it was against the Jedi Code to do so, but Anakin rationalizes that it was too dangerous to keep him alive. Just as Windu is rationalizing about executing Palpatine.

 

[wabrams]

Bobby Jim:

#1) Would Palpatine have had some other trick up his sleeve to counter-attack? (I don’t think the lightning bolts could have held off Windu forever)

I think that would have been the end of Sidious.
Bobby Jim:

#2) If Windu had dispatched Palpatine, who was at that point unarmed, would this have set Windu down the path of the Dark Side? Note the parallel to Anakin killing the disarmed Count Dooku - it was against the Jedi Code to do so, but Anakin rationalizes that it was too dangerous to keep him alive. Just as Windu is rationalizing about executing Palpatine.

No, Windu wouldn’t have gone to the Dark side. The Jedi have always supposed to dispose of the Sith, not arrest them and try them.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I Mace Windu had dispatched Palpatane, then there would not have been Episodes IV, V, and VI.

 

[NWUArmyROTC]

A Better question, what if Obi Wan had actually done his job and killed Anakin instead of leaving him seriously wounded. It would have been far better for Obi Wan to have walked up to the crippled Anakin and quickly dispatched him than to leave him alive. Without Vader, then Obi Wan and Yoda could go back to deal with the Emperor.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

wabrams:

No, Windu wouldn’t have gone to the Dark side. The Jedi have always supposed to dispose of the Sith, not arrest them and try them.

Yes, but when Anakin disposes of Dooku, he knows he’s doing something wrong, and he feels guilty. At the same time, they would have had a hard time arresting and imprisoning him. Although I wonder if a Sith with no hands, and no robotic hands, and no lightsaber is much of a threat. Can they do all that lightning and force-choking and sending things flying around with no hands?

 

[Bobby_Jim]

NWUArmyROTC:

A Better question, what if Obi Wan had actually done his job and killed Anakin instead of leaving him seriously wounded. It would have been far better for Obi Wan to have walked up to the crippled Anakin and quickly dispatched him than to leave him alive. Without Vader, then Obi Wan and Yoda could go back to deal with the Emperor.

Ahh, but I think Obi Wan is blinded by his emotions at this point - a mixture of regret and disillusionment and compassion for his former friend. So both Obi Wan and Anakin have similar failings, to reign in their passions and emotions.

Thus, the perfect Jedi? MR. SPOCK.

 

[NWUArmyROTC]

Fine, at least do a force push, so he goes into the river of Lava. That would effectively kill him.

My friends and I were wondering if Obi Wan does not kill Anakin because (a) it would be un-jedi, (b) he loves Anakin too much he cannot bring himself to kill him.

 

[wabrams]

NWUArmyROTC:

A Better question, what if Obi Wan had actually done his job and killed Anakin instead of leaving him seriously wounded. It would have been far better for Obi Wan to have walked up to the crippled Anakin and quickly dispatched him than to leave him alive. Without Vader, then Obi Wan and Yoda could go back to deal with the Emperor.

Well, I guess when someone catches fire in front of you and appears dead them there really isn’t much need to dispatch him.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

wabrams:

Well, I guess when someone catches fire in front of you and appears dead them there really isn’t much need to dispatch him.

How did he appear dead when he was using his robotic arm to claw for higher ground and screams “I hate you!” at the top of his lungs?

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Next question:

the secrets of prolonging life that Sidious learned from his late master, that ostensibly Anakin could have learned to save Padme… is this the same knowledge that Sidious uses to artificially sustain Anakin/Vader, with the cybernetics and implants and breathing apparatus, etc? I’m left to wonder, is this the way that the former wise Sith Lord sustained the ones he “loved”? Did he impose on them an eternal life of living death? And is this how Anakin would have had to sustain Padme? And would he have been so twisted by the dark side in his quest for knowledge, that he would have done this to keep her alive at all costs?

But given that Padme’s problem was that she “lost the will to live”, which probably wouldn’t have happened if Anakin hadn’t turned evil, choked her and then been dismembered, burned, disfigured, and left for dead, I guess all that dark side life-prolonging stuff wouldn’t have been necessary anyway if Anakin had just listened to master Yoda. Ahh, the irony.

 

[wabrams]

Bobby Jim:

Next question:

the secrets of prolonging life that Sidious learned from his late master, that ostensibly Anakin could have learned to save Padme… is this the same knowledge that Sidious uses to artificially sustain Anakin/Vader, with the cybernetics and implants and breathing apparatus, etc? I’m left to wonder, is this the way that the former wise Sith Lord sustained the ones he “loved”? Did he impose on them an eternal life of living death? And is this how Anakin would have had to sustain Padme? And would he have been so twisted by the dark side in his quest for knowledge, that he would have done this to keep her alive at all costs?

But given that Padme’s problem was that she “lost the will to live”, which probably wouldn’t have happened if Anakin hadn’t turned evil, choked her and then been dismembered, burned, disfigured, and left for dead, I guess all that dark side life-prolonging stuff wouldn’t have been necessary anyway if Anakin had just listened to master Yoda. Ahh, the irony.

I think the whole idea of substaining life was just a ruse to tempt Anakin, something that would push him over the edge to the dark side. As far as him having to wear the suit, I think that’s more equivalent to someone having to live in an iron lung. I think Anakin’s hate is what kept him alive long enough for Palpatine to find him and save him.

 

[wabrams]

Scott_Lafrance:

How did he appear dead when he was using his robotic arm to claw for higher ground and screams “I hate you!” at the top of his lungs?

No, I was thinking more of when he caught fire and pretty much quit moving.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

wabrams:

I think the whole idea of substaining life was just a ruse to tempt Anakin, something that would push him over the edge to the dark side. As far as him having to wear the suit, I think that’s more equivalent to someone having to live in an iron lung. I think Anakin’s hate is what kept him alive long enough for Palpatine to find him and save him.

I think there really was something to the story about preserving life… yes it was just used by Palpatine as a ruse to sway Anakin - he had no real intention of “searching” for the knowledge with him, but I think he already had, or at least thought he had, all of the old master’s secrets. I think General Grievous was a creation of Palpatine’s - mostly machine, but with some little bit of organic something-or-other inside. Vader (post rescue and surgery) is also presented as sort of a new creation of Palpatine’s - kind of like Frankenstein’s monster. (I think the scene in the operating room where Vader breaks free of his restraints and takes his first awkward steps is a direct reference to the old Boris Karloff film).

 

[Faustina]

Bobby Jim:

Ahh, but I think Obi Wan is blinded by his emotions at this point - a mixture of regret and disillusionment and compassion for his former friend. So both Obi Wan and Anakin have similar failings, to reign in their passions and emotions.

Thus, the perfect Jedi? MR. SPOCK.

Is it ironic that what essentially killed Padame (love) is what kept Anakin alive? So Obi Wan and Anakin(Darth Vader) are different sides of the same coin.

 

[wabrams]

Faustina:

Is it ironic that what essentially killed Padame (love) is what kept Anakin alive? So Obi Wan and Anakin(Darth Vader) are different sides of the same coin.

I was always under the impression that Anakin’s hate is what kept him alive.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

wabrams:

I was always under the impression that Anakin’s hate is what kept him alive.

Well I guess the last thing we hear him say before his rescue is “I HATE YOU!!!”.

I think Anakin is a perfect example of something I probably read in C.S. Lewis - that people who do evil are pursuing what they believe to be good, but in a perverse way. Anakin loves Padme, but fears losing her, and out of that fear he is willing to do monstrous things in his quest to preserve her life. And in the process he becomes so twisted, that the original love is barely discernible against the hate, jealousy, and his quest for power and control. When he cries his anguished (if laughably overdone) “Nooooooo!!!”, it is not for her but for himself that he cries (cue up “I’m a Loser” by the Beatles).

 

[StratusRose]

Bobby Jim:

Well I guess the last thing we hear him say before his rescue is “I HATE YOU!!!”.

I think Anakin is a perfect example of something I probably read in C.S. Lewis - that people who do evil are pursuing what they believe to be good, but in a perverse way. Anakin loves Padme, but fears losing her, and out of that fear he is willing to do monstrous things in his quest to preserve her life. And in the process he becomes so twisted, that the original love is barely discernible against the hate, jealousy, and his quest for power and control. When he cries his anguished (if laughably overdone) “Nooooooo!!!”, it is not for her but for himself that he cries (cue up “I’m a Loser” by the Beatles).

The “NOOOOO!!!” at the end had my friends and I laughing hysterically after the movie was over. When we couldn’t find the car in the parking lot we all went, “NOOOOO!!!” It was so funny.

I have a question. In Episode VI, Luke says to Leia, “Do you remember your mother…your real mother?” And Leia says something like “yes, she died when I was very young, she was very beautiful but sad.” How could this be when Padme dies seconds after the twins are born?

AND! In Episode IV, Obi-Wan gives Luke Anakin’s lightsaber and says, “Your father wanted you to have this, but your uncle wouldn’t hear of it…” Another contradiction!! Lucas’ contradictions really urked me in this movie!!

Ok, I admit it, I’m a Star Wars nerd.

 

[wabrams]

StratusRose:

I have a question. In Episode VI, Luke says to Leia, “Do you remember your mother…your real mother?” And Leia says something like “yes, she died when I was very young, she was very beautiful but sad.” How could this be when Padme dies seconds after the twins are born?

Leia said she had feelings about her mother. Apparently some of the unborn can sense their mothers emotions.

StratusRose:

AND! In Episode IV, Obi-Wan gives Luke Anakin’s lightsaber and says, “Your father wanted you to have this, but your uncle wouldn’t hear of it…” Another contradiction!! Lucas’ contradictions really urked me in this movie!!

Well, it wouldn’t help to approach a potential jedi and tell him “I took this lightsaber off your father after I nearly killed him in battle.” I think it was necessary for Ben to tell Luke little white lies so it wouldn’t interfere with his training.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

StratusRose:

The “NOOOOO!!!” at the end had my friends and I laughing hysterically after the movie was over. When we couldn’t find the car in the parking lot we all went, “NOOOOO!!!” It was so funny.

yeah, the other thing we laughed at was “She’s lost the will to live”. Not because it’s funny, but because it’s like the writers couldn’t come up with anything else. And the little droid delivers that line in such a deadpan voice. I also thought the exchange right before the “NOOOOO!!!” was kind of funny in the same way… Vader asks “where’s Padme”, and Sidious just says so matter-of-factly “you killed her in your rage”.

StratusRose:

I have a question. In Episode VI, Luke says to Leia, “Do you remember your mother…your real mother?” And Leia says something like “yes, she died when I was very young, she was very beautiful but sad.” How could this be when Padme dies seconds after the twins are born?

AND! In Episode IV, Obi-Wan gives Luke Anakin’s lightsaber and says, “Your father wanted you to have this, but your uncle wouldn’t hear of it…” Another contradiction!! Lucas’ contradictions really urked me in this movie!!

Ok, I admit it, I’m a Star Wars nerd.

Hmm, good questions. I guess Obi Wan didn’t mind stretching the truth a bit when talking to Luke about his father, so that could explain the lightsaber thing. Maybe if I were the writer I wouldn’t have had Padme die in childbirth. I would have her live a few years (so Leia would have some memory of her), and then she would die in some attack ordered Vader, who doesn’t even know he was killing the one he loved, whom he thought he had unknowingly killed years earlier. That would be much more dramatic than the simultaneous “She’s lost the will to live” and “Where’s Padme? / You killed her / NOOOO!!!” Although that type of scene would have extended the movie unnecessarily, and the overall conclusion may not have been as effective.

 

[Faustina]

wabrams:

I was always under the impression that Anakin’s hate is what kept him alive.

It was the love of Obi Wan that did not totally destroy him. Obi Wan could not kill him because of his love of Anakin. But it was Anakin’s twisted idea of love that killed Padame.