Starting a Mozarabic Rite Mass community...

[scapularkid8]

Is it even possible? There would have to be a priest willing to do it of course, but I don’t see how that would cause any problems? The Western Rites should be kept alive as much as the Eastern traditions and I think that the dominance of the Novus Ordo makes most Catholics forget that there are wonderful traditions to be found in the East and West that we should keep alive.

Just out of curiosity, if there were a Mozarab Catholic Mass community, would you join it?

 

[NoPlaceLikeRome]

Well, it’s historically Spanish, so I would think there would be 3 possible situations where it would be used: either

a) in Spain
b) a community of Spanish immigrants
c) a Spanish priest who knew a good number of interested people. I’m not as sure about this last one.

I think that it would be parallel to the use of the Dominican Rite, which is for Dominicans to say, or to be said for Dominicans–you wouldn’t see a diocesan priest set up a Dominican Rite Mass community of people who had no particular connection to the Order.

 

[Alexios]

Sounds like an awesome idea and intention, but you have a big snag. I’m pretty sure the Mozarabic Rite is only allowed within the territorial confines of the Archdiocese of Toledo, in Spain. Like the Ambrosian Rite for Milan.

So unless you’re planning on moving to Toledo (where even most of the Masses are Roman Rite), I don’t think your plan will come to fruition.

 

[scapularkid8]

Sounds like an awesome idea and intention, but you have a big snag. I’m pretty sure the Mozarabic Rite is only allowed within the territorial confines of the Archdiocese of Toledo, in Spain. Like the Ambrosian Rite for Milan.

So unless you’re planning on moving to Toledo (where even most of the Masses are Roman Rite), I don’t think your plan will come to fruition.

Darn. That’s too bad. I think the West should preserve its liturgical heritage as much as the East is attempting to do. Is the Ambrosian Rite still practiced? I head it was suppressed?

 

[NoPlaceLikeRome]

Is the Ambrosian Rite still practiced? I head it was suppressed?

I dunno; I feel that I heard an offhand remark “The Novus Ordo isn’t said in the whole Diocese of Milan” which would seem to imply they still use it? I’ll look it up…

Although at various points in its history the distinctive Ambrosian Rite has risked suppression, it survived after the Second Vatican Council partly because the then Pope, Paul VI was sympathetic, having been the Archbishop of Milan.

–Wikipedia

 

[Rolltide]

Sounds like an awesome idea and intention, but you have a big snag. I’m pretty sure the Mozarabic Rite is only allowed within the territorial confines of the Archdiocese of Toledo, in Spain. Like the Ambrosian Rite for Milan.

So unless you’re planning on moving to Toledo (where even most of the Masses are Roman Rite), I don’t think your plan will come to fruition.

Some additional information from Wikipedia:

The Mozarabic Mass is celebrated daily in the Corpus Christi Chapel (also called the Mozarabic Chapel) in the Cathedral of Toledo. Two of the original six “Mozarabic” parishes of Toledo remain. Additionally, all the churches of Toledo annually celebrate this rite on the Feast of the Incarnation, December 18th, and on the feast day of San Ildefonso, January 23rd. The rite is also used on certain days each year in the Talavera Chapel of the Old Cathedral of Salamanca and less regularly in other cities in Spain. Pope John Paul II celebrated it once in each of the years 1992 and 2000.

 

[Rolltide]

Is the Ambrosian Rite still practiced? I head it was suppressed?

Yes, it is. In fact, it is significantly easier to find an Ambrosian Rite Mass than a Mozarabic one. Here’s some more information from Wikipedia:

Ambrosian Rite (also sometimes called the Milanese Rite) named after Saint Ambrose, bishop of Milan in the fourth century, is a Catholic liturgical rite practised among Catholics in the greater part of the Archdiocese of Milan (excluding, notably, the city of Monza, and a few other towns), and neighbouring area, including some five million Catholics in Lombardy, Italy, and in about fifty parishes of the Diocese of Lugano, in the Canton Ticino, Switzerland.

It is distinguished from the Roman Rite by particular features in some parts of the liturgical year that have different durations: Advent is of six weeks instead of four, and there is no Ash Wednesday, as Lent starts on Sunday, so the Ambrosian Carnival ends four days later, on “sabato grasso” (Italian for fat Saturday), the equivalent of Shrove Tuesday or “mardi gras” (French for fat Tuesday) in the folk practices of the Roman Rite. The Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office or Breviary) and the prayers and ceremonies of some of the Sacraments are different in structure and various features, as is the Mass. The music associated with these services is Ambrosian chant.

Although at various points in its history the distinctive Ambrosian Rite has risked suppression, it survived after the Second Vatican Council partly because the then Pope, Paul VI was sympathetic, having been the Archbishop of Milan. In the 20th century it also gained prominence and prestige from the attentions of two other scholarly Archbishops of Milan: Achille Ratti, later Pope Pius XI, and the Blessed Ildefonso Schuster, both of whom had been involved in studies and publications on the rite before their appointment.

 

[scapularkid8]

Although at various points in its history the distinctive Ambrosian Rite has risked suppression, it survived after the Second Vatican Council partly because the then Pope, Paul VI was sympathetic, having been the Archbishop of Milan. In the 20th century it also gained prominence and prestige from the attentions of two other scholarly Archbishops of Milan: Achille Ratti, later Pope Pius XI, and the Blessed Ildefonso Schuster, both of whom had been involved in studies and publications on the rite before their appointment.

So how did the Mozarabic Rite fare in the Second Vatican Council’s deliberations? Obviously it’s not as grand as the Ambrosian Rite, but there must be some sympathy for it at the Vatican if John Paul the Great attended a Mozarabic Mass every time he went to Spain.

 

[Alexios]

Well we need to differentiate between the traditional Ambrosian Rite, the New Ambrosian Rite, the traditional Mozarabic Rite, and the new Mozarabic Rite.

What many people don’t realize is that the post-Vatican II liturgical reforms were not content at destroying the Roman Rite, but every Rite of the Latin Church they could get their hands on.

So, trad Ambrosian and Mozarabic Masses are incredibly hard to come by, but the new ones aren’t that much, especially in the Archdiocese of Milan.

 

[AJV]

Some text links

The Revised Mozarabic Mass and other information: see here, and some things in an easier format, here

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Well we need to differentiate between the traditional Ambrosian Rite, the New Ambrosian Rite, the traditional Mozarabic Rite, and the new Mozarabic Rite.

What many people don’t realize is that the post-Vatican II liturgical reforms were not content at destroying the Roman Rite, but every Rite of the Latin Church they could get their hands on.

So, trad Ambrosian and Mozarabic Masses are incredibly hard to come by, but the new ones aren’t that much, especially in the Archdiocese of Milan.

It’s my understanding that the reformers did just as much a hack job on the Ambrosian rite as they had done on the Roman, so the same probably holds true for the Mozarabic, as well. I believe there is basically only one chapel in Milan where the traditional Ambrosian rite is still celebrated. There has been a bit of a flap in that diocese as the archbishop has claimed that the motu proprio extends only to the Roman Rite, and thus he has not freed the traditional Ambrosian rite for wider use. Most everyone believes this issue will be settled by Rome in favor of the traditional rite’s availability.

 

[catharina]

So how did the Mozarabic Rite fare in the Second Vatican Council’s deliberations? Obviously it’s not as grand as the Ambrosian Rite, but there must be some sympathy for it at the Vatican if John Paul the Great attended a Mozarabic Mass every time he went to Spain.

This is your topic so pay attention. Post # 6 said that the Holy Father celebrated Mass in this rite twice during visits to Spain. It does NOT say he attended the Mass in this rite every time he went to Spain. These concepts are WORLDS apart. Get it right, please.

 

[scapularkid8]

This is your topic so pay attention. Post # 6 said that the Holy Father celebrated Mass in this rite twice during visits to Spain. It does NOT say he attended the Mass in this rite every time he went to Spain. These concepts are WORLDS apart. Get it right, please.

:ehh: yes ma’am…a little harsh. I thought that he had only visited Spain twice, therefore since he only celebrated the Mass only once per visit, he would have only celebrated it once each time he visited: twice.

I don’t think he would want us bickering over this anyway…

 

[catharina]

:ehh: yes ma’am…a little harsh. I thought that he had only visited Spain twice, therefore since he only celebrated the Mass only once per visit, he would have only celebrated it once each time he visited: twice.

I don’t think he would want us bickering over this anyway…

Good heavens, who’s bickering? There is a HUGE difference between the Holy Father ATTENDING Mass and the Holy Father CELEBRATING Mass. Yes? Yes.

 

[East02West]

I know this is a bit late, and this thread is QUITE old, but I thought it relevant that I add the following response.

The “Traditional” Mozarabic Liturgy was QUITE Romanized, when the Roman Rite came to displace the Mozarabic Rite within Iberia. Some were self imposed to insure it’s survival, others were forced, so as to avoid “confusion”.

Nevertheless, the Mozarabic Liturgy post-VII was an attempt to REMOVE all those Romanizations, and from what I have heard, it’s one of the few Rites post-VII that came out BETTER as a result. Likewise, the Mozarabic Rite isn’t totally Latin in origin, but rather Antiochian.

Just thought I’d throw that out there.

As such, the Motu Propio allowed freer usage of any, and ALL Latin Rites IIRC, and if memory serves, the injunction limiting the Mozarabic Liturgy to the Cathedral in Toledo has been lifted. To be frank, the only reason it came to be suppressed in Spain, and displaced by the Roman Rite has to do with politics. Read the history of the Rite, and how both a jousting tournament, and a trial by fire BOTH vindicated the Mozarabic Rite, yet the then reigning king chose to the have the Roman Rite replace it.

Changes in policy like that aren’t good for souls.

 

[John_of_Patmos]

I know this is a bit late, and this thread is QUITE old, but I thought it relevant that I add the following response.

The “Traditional” Mozarabic Liturgy was QUITE Romanized, when the Roman Rite came to displace the Mozarabic Rite within Iberia. Some were self imposed to insure it’s survival, others were forced, so as to avoid “confusion”.

Nevertheless, the Mozarabic Liturgy post-VII was an attempt to REMOVE all those Romanizations, and from what I have heard, it’s one of the few Rites post-VII that came out BETTER as a result. Likewise, the Mozarabic Rite isn’t totally Latin in origin, but rather Antiochian.

Just thought I’d throw that out there.

As such, the Motu Propio allowed freer usage of any, and ALL Latin Rites IIRC, and if memory serves, the injunction limiting the Mozarabic Liturgy to the Cathedral in Toledo has been lifted. To be frank, the only reason it came to be suppressed in Spain, and displaced by the Roman Rite has to do with politics. Read the history of the Rite, and how both a jousting tournament, and a trial by fire BOTH vindicated the Mozarabic Rite, yet the then reigning king chose to the have the Roman Rite replace it.

Changes in policy like that aren’t good for souls.

Thanks for the info. I really wish I could go to a Mozarabic Mass…

 

[JSSebastianoP]

I know this is a bit late, and this thread is QUITE old, but I thought it relevant that I add the following response.

The “Traditional” Mozarabic Liturgy was QUITE Romanized, when the Roman Rite came to displace the Mozarabic Rite within Iberia. Some were self imposed to insure it’s survival, others were forced, so as to avoid “confusion”.

Nevertheless, the Mozarabic Liturgy post-VII was an attempt to REMOVE all those Romanizations, and from what I have heard, it’s one of the few Rites post-VII that came out BETTER as a result. Likewise, the Mozarabic Rite isn’t totally Latin in origin, but rather Antiochian.

Just thought I’d throw that out there.

As such, the Motu Propio allowed freer usage of any, and ALL Latin Rites IIRC, and if memory serves, the injunction limiting the Mozarabic Liturgy to the Cathedral in Toledo has been lifted. To be frank, the only reason it came to be suppressed in Spain, and displaced by the Roman Rite has to do with politics. Read the history of the Rite, and how both a jousting tournament, and a trial by fire BOTH vindicated the Mozarabic Rite, yet the then reigning king chose to the have the Roman Rite replace it.

Changes in policy like that aren’t good for souls.

So is Mozarabic, even if Antiochan in origin is still considered Latin for the purposes of the Motu Proprio?

Thanks,

J. S. S. P.

 

[Hesychios]

So is Mozarabic, even if Antiochan in origin is still considered Latin for the purposes of the Motu Proprio?

Thanks,

J. S. S. P.

There have been several Motu proprio’s issued, but I am sure you mean the recent one allowing the EF to be publicly celebrated.

I can’t answer that question (although I sorta doubt it), but I wanted to point out that the church does not recognize a separate Mozarabic particular church. The old Spanish synod is long gone, and all (priests and laity alike) are regular members of the Latin Catholic church. The Latin church hierarchy does not have to allow this liturgy to be performed anywhere without a demonstrable need, and almost all RC priests have no prior experience with it. It would be a hard argument to make.

For those interested in attending a Mozarabic Mass, there is indeed one small temple in north America that I know of which has this Mass. It may not be open every Sunday anymore, I think the priests are probably elderly.

But it is Orthodox, so Latin Catholic visitors would not normally be allowed to satisfy their Sunday obligation nor receive communion.

 

[Rolltide]

There have been several Motu proprio’s issued, but I am sure you mean the recent one allowing the EF to be publicly celebrated.

I can’t answer that question (although I sorta doubt it), but I wanted to point out that the church does not recognize a separate Mozarabic particular church. The old Spanish synod is long gone, and all (priests and laity alike) are regular members of the Latin Catholic church. The Latin church hierarchy does not have to allow this liturgy to be performed anywhere without a demonstrable need, and almost all RC priests have no prior experience with it. It would be a hard argument to make.

For those interested in attending a Mozarabic Mass, there is indeed one small temple in north America that I know of which has this Mass. It may not be open every Sunday anymore, I think the priests are probably elderly.

There is a slight possibility, if you can find all of the necessary people, of petitioning to celebrate a SINGLE Mozarabic Mass as a sort of one-time demonstration. I’ve heard of this done with the Ambrosian Mass once, and perhaps more notably, the suppressed Sarum Rite. Often this is done for film or historical purposes, to serve as a record to those who are interested, but don’t have the chance to experience it.