Starting to agree with Martin Luther

[guanophore]

Are you saying that Catholics do not believe that indulgences are a method of reducing time in Purgatory?

It is likely that there are several concepts in this question that you don’t understand.

An indulgence is a manner of receiving the grace of God, so of course, all grace from God benefits the soul of the disciple.

Purgatory is outside of time, and is not subject to our concepts of the space/time continuum, so “reducing time” from a human point of view is not applicable.

Purgatory is a state of cleansing that some souls endure because nothing unclean can enter heaven. It is a gift of grace, in God’s mercy, He purifies us with fire so that we can spend eternity with HIm.

He went to Catholic school.

… There is no comparison between reading about God’s love and experiencing it.

Yeah, me too. I never “got it” either!

He went to Catholic schools means NOTHING. One must take ownership of their faith, It is every believers responsibility. Spending an hour a week in Mass is not enough. Even Catholic education is not enough. You have to make it your own. When people say that they “Aren’t being fed” it means:

• They have ZERO understanding of the Eucharist
• They have not devoted themselves to the faith
• They don’t find Masss entertaining enough for them

This was certainly applicable in my case.

 

[guanophore]

Luther never challenged acts of charity and/or the visible fruit of faith as evidence of a true Christian. Luther challenged the fact that the Catholic church was selling salvation for cash.

This is a lie. The Church was not at the time, nor did it ever “sell salvation for cash”

Are you saying that money was not accepted by the Catholic church in exchange for reduced time in purgatory?

There were wolves among the sheep that were not acting in accordance with the Teachings of the Church. Luther had some valid complaints about them. The Council of Trent made changes to prevent even the appearance of such a thing happening again.

It is theologically impossible to “sall salvation” because it is a free gift, so no, the Catholic Church could not , and did not , do this.

However, there were some snake oil salesman that certainly did successfully palm this lie onto the populace.

Point taken.
They never called it selling, but the amount of the indulgence was directly related to the amount of the ‘contribution’… and peoples fears were used effectively to get the needed quantities of money that they previously would not give.

This is true. It was not done by the Church, though. Just corrupt clerics committing grievious sins, taking advantage of the flock of God.

That said, except for men like Martin Luther being willing to risk their reputation and their lives in order to say what needed to be said, the Church showed no sign of concern.

It appears that you have been exposed to a rather warped perspective of history.

Leo’s initial reaction was to ignore when he first was told of Luther’s concerns. The Pope either was not aware or was not concerned that the abuse had gone to the point of aggressive marketing practices like the 50/50 split of the proceeds and like Johann Tetzel’s campaign to gather ‘alms’ by proclaiming … “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory / into heaven springs.”

The Pope does not equate to the Church, especially when he is engaged in wickedness. I agree with you, though, he should have taken Martin seriously in the beginning. He was arrogant, and thought he could act with impugnity. Had he listened to Martin, the Reformation may have been avoided.

He was getting the money he needed for the building project. That is what his focus until forced by Luther to do otherwise. There was certainly no incentive within the leadership in Rome to change anything.

I don’t think Luther “forced” anyone to do anything. I will agree that he pushed, and Leo pushed back.

On what basis do you make the claim that there was “no incentive within the leadership in Rome to change anything”? Have you spoken with all the leaders? Have you read their writings? Do you think Leo comprises the whole leadership?

The weight of opinion among the church hierarchy was to control or, if necessary, stop Luther.

Absolutely. And not all of that was selfishly motivated. When you read some of Luther’s writings about peasants and Jews, you will understand more of the concern.

Add to that the treatment that John Huss got and it is not surprising.

What is not surprising?

If Luther hadn’t forced the issue … the focus and decision at the Council of Trent would never have happened.Trent was the result of Luther.

We can’t know this. God will always act to preserve His Holy Bride. Disobedience and rebellion are not the gifts through which He works best. Had Luther prayed and fasted for the Church, as the saints did, God may have used his sacrifice to cause reform without fragmentation. Disobedience always causes fragmentation.

They rejected the messenger… but were forced to get the message.

This characterization represents that you don’t believe there were any persons of devotion and holiness in the Chruch that were trying to listen and respond to God’s Spirit. God’s Spirit does not “force” anyone to do anything.

 

[guanophore]

Paul did indeed “just go off on his own.” He didn’t visit the head of the church for three years.

No, he did not. Jesus sent him to the Church to be baptized and receive instruction. A new convert does not need to receive the teaching of the Apostles from the Pope. Anyone in the Apostolic Succession is authorized to form converts in the faith.

See Paul’s words below:

But when the one who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I could preach him among the Gentiles, I did not go to ask advice from any human being, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before me, but right away I departed to Arabia, and then returned to Damascus.
​

Paul was formed in the faith by being catechized by the successors of the Apostles. Yes, of course, He was called by God, as all the Apostles were. None of the Apostles “went off on their own”. Paul basically ran away from home, because he could not return to his life in Jerusalem any more. He had become one of those he was sent to extinguish! While he was on retreat in Arabia, he remained with the Christians there.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and get information from him, and I stayed with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. I assure you that, before God, I am not lying about what I am writing to you! Afterward I went to the regions of Syria and Cilicia. But I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They were only hearing, “The one who once persecuted us is now proclaiming the good news of the faith he once tried to destroy.” So they glorified God because of me.

Paul was eager to ensure that his “Gospel” was congruent with that given to all the other Apostles. He learned that it was.

It wasn’t until 14 years(!) later that James, Cephas and John recognized the grace that had been given to Paul (see Gal 2:1, 6-10).

He didn’t obtain this recognition for his own benefit but (I think) for the unity of the church. He says in Gal 2:6 that he didn’t care much about influential leaders.

I agree. He realized it was important to be in unity, but he was clear that he was called of God, commissioned personally as an apostle by Jesus, and authorized to teach the gospel.

 

[guanophore]

Certainly I agree that Paul did not go off half-cocked and that he was not some kind of “lone wolf”. And also I agree that he did not deny the Apostles any honor. But it is not the Church that made it that way.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that it is Jesus Christ and God the Father and not men, nor human agency (Gal 1:1). That is what makes one a child of God (and in Paul’s case, an apostle).

That I think was the point that the OP was questioning about.

It is true that God does not NEED to work through human agency, but He chooses to do so. He called Paul, and set him apart, sent him to His One Body, the Church. All the authority of the Apostles came from God. Paul gives us more teaching about the necessity of the Church than all the other Apostles combined! It is through his writings that we know one cannot be “in Christ” unless one is also a member of His One Body, the Church. We also learn that all the actions of the members affect each other, and that people who separate themselves from the unity of the Church cause wounds.

Paul was submissive to *God *on all accounts, not to the Church.

There is no separation between the two, Utmost. Jesus identifies Himself completely with His Holy Bride.

I think there is a difference between these two. Paul makes it clear that did not need approval from any human being (Gal 1:16). I agree that he is unique (since he was one of the apostles) and a special case.

Being “approved” by humans and being submissive to the Church are two different things. Jesus is Head of the Church. The Church is His. In submitting to His Holy Bride, we are in submission to Him.

Question: If Paul was submissive to the Church, would he have rebuked Peter (Gal 2:11)? Is one allowed (or is there a process) where one can address issues where Church leadership is doing things outside the will of God?

Absolutely. Correction of believers in hypocrisy is one of the spiritual acts of mercy.
Submission to the Church means that you confront your brother if he is going astray.

I think the answer to your question about confronting wrongdoing is clearly outlined in the Gospel, don’t you? Don’t you think Paul followed it exactly?

 

[guanophore]

Who then is Paul writing about in Gal 1:1 and Gal 2:6?

Who was Ananias? Was he Church leadership? Or was Ananias just a servant of God?

Dear one, that is exactly what the leadership of the Church is! They are the servants of God. Ananias was one of the prophets who was the foundation of the Church.

Why (14 years later) does Paul get approval from James, Cephas, and John (Gal 2:9) if he already had the Church’s approval from Ananias?

I thought we were in agreement that Paul did not go to Jerusalem to get “approval”? He went to check his Gospel against what was given to them. He conferred with them, and they gave him the right hand of fellowship. Paul did not need to be commissioned by the other Apostles, because he was commissioned by Christ. All the leaders of the Church worked in harmony with one another.

I think Paul is making the case for *God *and not Church.

That is because you are contaminated by a deficient understanding of the nature of the Church. There is no “and not”. Paul was sent by Christ. He went to the Church. He was baptized and confirmed and healed through the Church. He was catechized in the faith by the Church, and was in unity with the other Apostles in the service of the Church. Paul knew that Jesus does not separate Himself from the Church.

Paul is laying out all this out in Galatians because he is proving that he is one of the apostles and does not need the approval of the Church.

No. He is proving that he is an apostle with the same authority of the others, who are all in service to the Church. The Church is much more than the Apostles, or any other group of people. Jesus is Head of the Church. If He is approved by Jesus, He is approved by the Church.

Getting back to the OP’s questions. One does not need the Church to be saved, but one does need the Church to live your life here on earth.

You are creating a false dichotomy. Jesus does not separate Himself from the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Back to the original question (or related). Can one be saved outside of the Church? I believe it is God who saves and not the Church.

No, there is no salvation outside of the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ, and there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. Those who are in Him, are members of HIs One Body.

Everyone knows the Bible quotes can go on and on and on. The point I’m trying to make is that in all these and many many many more passages, we look to God, we look to Jeses, to the cross. Not to the Priest, or the Bishop for our actual salvation. I believe they are here to teach us the true way of God and give sacraments. I don’t think it is for them to decide who should receive them and who should not, when, and how.

The role of the priest and the bishop is to present the gospel of salvation, and to feed and care for the flock of God. Of course it is important for them to minister the sacraments. It is would be wrong for them to minister them inappropriately. There are conditions for all the sacraments that must be met. For example, no one should be baptized without a profession of faith. Communion is not to be offered to those who profane the name of Christ, etc.

It is absolutely their duty to minister those sacraments appropriately, using the proper form and matter that was handed down from the Apostles. That is what ensures the validity of the sacrament. The “how” is just as important as the “who”.

When I come, I am asking the Lord Jesus for HIS body and HIS blood.  Who is "The Church", to keep it from me until whomever feels I am educated enough to receive it (or maybe if I put forth my tithe early this season).

You are mischaraterizing the ministry. It is a calumny to assert that it has anything to do with tithing.I think if you will look into the history of the faith, you will find that the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist has always been carefully protected. Those who are not baptized are not to be admitted. Those who are known to be in a state of mortal sin are not to be admitted, etc, etc. This is for the protection of the person, who will eat and drink condemnation upon himself if he receives in an unworthy manner.

Of course it is the responsibility of the individual to examine himself, but also the duty of the minister to follow what he received from the Apostles.

I know what Holy Communion is and what it means and I deserve it like any other sinner looking for redemption.

This is one of the main problems with the faith in this day and age. We have people asserting that they “deserve” the gifts and grace of God. It is frightening.

These are a privilege, and we are to be worthy to receive them, not to demand that we have a right to them.

That is how I feel when time and time again, I go to Mass and I must watch others receive the sacrament and because classes are not being offered right now, I am not allowed even to confess my sins and be forgiven.

It sounds like God is doing a major work in your heart right now.

If the case is I am not allowd until I finish class then class should be all the time or they turn away the very souls they are supposed to be bringing to Christ.

We are to come to Christ in humility with a receptive and teachable spirit. Perhaps He has arranged this for you so that you can have a breakthrough in your attitude.

We all must come to a point where we are willing to do “whatever it takes” to come to him. We are to wait upon Him, with expectant faith. Perhaps you have forgotten that eye has not seen, nor has ear heard, what God has in store for those who love him.

Did you have this same attitude about not being able to have sex before marriage? Don’t you realize that a period of fasting brings one to greater appreciation of the feast?

 Remember seek and you will find ask and you will receive knock and the door will be opened unto you (after RCIA and me and the Priest and teachers decide you have learned enough out of the book that is NOT the Bible).

It seems that you are defnitely suffering from some attitude problems. It is good that you have such a long wait.

Are you under some misapprehension that the Bible was meant to be a full compendium of the faith? I find myself wondering why you are even considering becoming Catholic, when you are suffering so much rebellious hostility about the process.

It makes me feel like Luther. Keep your stuff that you save only for certain people, I’ll go to God myself like it says in the Bible. I can go to God as soon as I am baptized with all my prayers.

So what is stopping you? Why are you not at peace, and content, knowing that everything will happen in God’s time?

I love the Catholic Church but they need to bring the people in that want to be in. Why is the Church Dying? Why are there no priests? I wonder…

It would be inappropriate to bring people in who are not ready.

What makes you think the Church is dying? The Holy Bride of Christ cannot die, because her soul is the Holy Spirit, who is eternal.

If there are no priests, why are you complaining about one?

Keep wondering, but may you find peace in your prayers while you are doing it.

 

[1voice]

Clearly not a very well educated Catholic.

It seems clear that you have a misunderstanding about the Catholic understanding of Church and salvation.

Catholics believe that we can only be saved by Christ - that there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. Therefore, all who are saved are saved by His blood, shed upon the cross for our sins.

Those who are “in Christ” are automatically made members of His One Body, the Church. Jesus does not separate Himself from His Church, therefore, salvation cannot be separated from Him, and His Holy Bride.

rturner76 … the one that started the conversation isnt getting that. He is getting the same impression that I got after being a Catholic for 25 years…
Quote rturner76:
" Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, does he not become your personal savior and reside in your heart forever? I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted. He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him. Or Is it when other men have decided you are ready to receive him, then you are ready? I read my Bible every day and I Love Jesus Christ and I feel him with me. Must I wait until I finish RCIA to have a relationship with my God, my Christ? I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will."​

… I think that Peter, Who added 3000 to the church on that Pentecost… described in Acts, would tend to agree with rturner.

 

[guanophore]

rturner76 … the one that started the conversation isnt getting that. He is getting the same impression that I got after being a Catholic for 25 years…

What can I say? That is what I was “getting” also. It took a long time for me to understand that what I got was not much of the Teaching of the Church, and that my catechesis, along with my spiritual formation, was poor.

… I think that Peter, Who added 3000 to the church on that Pentecost… described in Acts, would tend to agree with rturner.

Peter was speaking to well catechized people. They were pilgrims visiting the Holy City for the festival, faithful Jews who had been formed in faith since their birth. They were familiar with the Scriptures, and the way of life that one must live to be worthy of the calling to which they were called.

Besides, once they were baptized, they received instruction. After Pentecost, and especially after Gentiles began to be added to the Church, catechesis before baptism became the norm.

rturner is being asked by God to examine the desires of his heart, and to conform himself with the likeness and image of Christ. This does not happen by blaming other people because you are not getting your way. It comes from submitting oneself to the purpose of God, and entering into His suffering.

Jesus also was frustrated that His people would not accept Him. He would say “how long must I suffer you!”. rturner has an opportunity to become united with Christ in this matter.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

rturner76 ,
In your post #97 , at the end you say , "Why is the Church dyeing ? Why are there no priests " ? Where did you get this idea ? Where do you live ? The Catholic Church does a census every year and publishes it , it is known as the “White Book” or the "Red Book " , with the only difference between the two editions being the color of the book’s cover . This book is in demand by all sorts of people ( besides Bishops ) , including academics, demographers and even governments .
The most recent edition ( I can’t remember if it was for '09 or '10 but I think it was '10 ) states that there are now 1,181,000,000 Roman Catholics ( including Eastern Rites in communion with Rome ). in the world . It also reveals that there are currently 68,500,000 Roman Catholics in the U.S.A… These figures reveal a Roman Catholic Church that is Growing in both the U.S.A. AND the world ! Yes , that’s right , the Catholic Church is growing . Furthermore , men in seminaries around the world are also increasing , not just this year but for the last several years ! In fact , until 2002 , seminary attendance around the world had been increasing , then declined for several years and has increased again . This does NOT mean that seminary enrollment is "uniformly " growing around the world , it is not , but OVERALL seminary enrollment IS growing . There are certain parts of the west where seminary enrollment HAS declined , but this only reinorces the “catholic” ( i.e. , universal) nature of the Roman Catholic Church.
I suspect you asked your questions about a " dyeing " Church and declining priests based on information you read in the Main Stream Media . These sources do a consistently poor job of reporting on religion in general and Catholicism in particular . I chalk this up to a combination of ignorance , apathy and/or hostility .
Besides Catholic sources , you might also read Dr. Philip Jenkins ,Ph.D. ( Distiguished Professor of History and Religion at Penn . State Univ . – and no , he is not Catholic himself ).
What I posted about is not a matter of discipline , dogma , doctrine or faith . The facts I posted about should be more easily agreed to , before we confront more weighty issues .

 

[StTommyMore]

This may add to the current thrust of the conversation. I came into the Church at the Easter Vigil in 2008. I had been going to Mass, though not absolutely every week, for about 6 months when I was led by the Holy Spirit to inquire about formally joining the Church. It was about May, 2007. I was told that RCIA would not start until September, and I would be brought into the Church at Easter. The DRE explained that it is important to understand the basic tenets of the faith before entering into full communion with the Church. This is my exact opposite experience with the Protestant faith communities I had been associated with, whose basic methodology was “get, 'em saved, get 'em baptized, and forget about 'em”. There was no real catechesis or discipleship.
As far as the attitude of “I deserve to receive the sacraments, like everyone else,” the fact of this is stated in the Mass: “I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.” We cannot, we must not view the Sacraments with an entitlement mentality, but with humility. When James and John asked for special privileges, they were rebuked by the Lord. How much so should we not make demands, who were not graced in being with the Lord during his earthly ministry.

 

[StTommyMore]

[​

… I think that Peter, Who added 3000 to the church on that Pentecost… described in Acts, would tend to agree with rturner.](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/member.php?u=247668)

With all due respect St. Peter did not add 300o to the Church. The Holy Spirit did. St. Peter was the human instrument.

 

[Hiskid1973]

This is my exact opposite experience with the Protestant faith communities I had been associated with, whose basic methodology was “get, 'em saved, get 'em baptized, and forget about 'em”. There was no real catechesis or discipleship.
.

Wow that was a shame…My experience over the last 40 years has been with evangelical
churches the were strong on discipleship…You have to be “in Christ” to be discipled…You are incorporated into the body of Christ no matter what physical church you will be going to. Peter first preached to Jews, they believed on Jesus…They were added to the church that day…There is a moment where a new creature is born…I had a powerful conversion experience…I heard the gospel and responded. I became part of His body from that evangelistic message…I then got involved in a church and was water baptized about a year later in a farm pond…About a year after that I had an experience with the Holy Spirit that set my faith on fire, a strong faith and boldness to share the gospel…We just had two evangelist outreach in two villages in southeast Asia…New believers in both villages…There isn’t even an “official” church building yet they are being taught the scriptures… They are part of His church, they are no more/less christian or part of the body of Christ than you or I are…We all then mature as we grow in Christ…Christ in us is our hope of Glory…

 

[Hiskid1973]

With all due respect St. Peter did not add 300o to the Church. The Holy Spirit did. St. Peter was the human instrument.

I don’t think he would argue about that…

 

[StTommyMore]

Wow that was a shame…My experience over the last 40 years has been with evangelical
churches the were strong on discipleship…You have to be “in Christ” to be discipled…You are incorporated into the body of Christ no matter what physical church you will be going to. Peter first preached to Jews, they believed on Jesus…They were added to the church that day…There is a moment where a new creature is born…I had a powerful conversion experience…I heard the gospel and responded. I became part of His body from that evangelistic message…I then got involved in a church and was water baptized about a year later in a farm pond…About a year after that I had an experience with the Holy Spirit that set my faith on fire, a strong faith and boldness to share the gospel…We just had two evangelist outreach in two villages in southeast Asia…New believers in both villages…There isn’t even an “official” church building yet they are being taught the scriptures… They are part of His church, they are no more/less christian or part of the body of Christ than you are…Christ in us is our hope of Glory…

You were not in the Body of Christ until you were baptized. That is a necessary component of Salvation.

 

[Hiskid1973]

You were not in the Body of Christ until you were baptized. That is a necessary component of Salvation.

So I wasn’t a real “christian” for a year ?

 

[Rence]

Everyone knows the Bible quotes can go on and on and on. The point I’m trying to make is that in all these and many many many more passages, we look to God, we look to Jeses, to the cross. Not to the Priest, or the Bishop for our actual salvation. I believe they are here to teach us the true way of God and give sacraments. I don’t think it is for them to decide who should receive them and who should not, when, and how. When I come, I am asking the Lord Jesus for HIS body and HIS blood. Who is “The Church”, to keep it from me until whomever feels I am educated enough to receive it (or maybe if I put forth my tithe early this season). I know what Holy Communion is and what it means and I deserve it like any other sinner looking for redemption. That is how I feel when time and time again, I go to Mass and I must watch others receive the sacrament and because classes are not being offered right now, I am not allowed even to confess my sins and be forgiven. If the case is I am not allowd until I finish class then class should be all the time or they turn away the very souls they are supposed to be bringing to Christ. Remember seek and you will find ask and you will receive knock and the door will be opened unto you (after RCIA and me and the Priest and teachers decide you have learned enough out of the book that is NOT the Bible). It makes me feel like Luther. Keep your stuff that you save only for certain people, I’ll go to God myself like it says in the Bible. I can go to God as soon as I am baptized with all my prayers. I love the Catholic Church but they need to bring the people in that want to be in. Why is the Church Dying? Why are there no priests? I wonder…

I’m sorry that you’re hurting like you are. It must be horrible to be so spiritual starved. I will pray for you, that the process goes by quickly and easily. I’ve often thought about how unfair it is that most Catholics are born into the faith, but converts are put through so much political red tape. They really can’t say that it’s for the sake of the Church or even for the candidate because if that were the case, they would put everyone through the same rigamorole. They say it’s because they want to be sure the candidate totally and completely understands what he’s getting him/herself into, so that they are fully committed, but if that were the case, they would do the same for all members, not just converts. But the Church has for a long time been about rules, laws, and of course, pomp and circumstance. You had to know that from the beginning. It takes a long time to get from the Pope down the “chain of command” down to the people. And the Pope, though the vicar of Jesus, is not Jesus. In the biblical times, no one had to go through anyone to get to Jesus. He invited them all to come to Him. And He reprimanded any of his disciples that tried to interfere. So clearly, the community that Jesus established is not what it is today. But I guess that was unavoidable as the community grew into a larger-than-life establishment. That’s the nature of growth and development in any arena.

You may have said how much farther you have left before being Baptized and having your First Communion in a previous post, but hopefully, you don’t have much further to go, and then you can receive our Lord every day

I have to add, that despite the statistics, I think you will make a much better Catholic than most because you are giving authority of the Church over you, and doing so willingly. Yes, you sound pretty frustrated and angry right now. But it’s okay to be frustrated and angry. But what it boils down to, is that you are obedient to the Church. Because if you didn’t subject yourself to the authority of the Church, you wouldn’t care about the rules (like a great number of Catholics today) and just go to Communion anyway. So I really have to give you credit. I hope that you are always this devoted to your faith

 

[StTommyMore]

So I wasn’t a real “christian” for a year ?

The Scriptures are very clear. In the Great Commission we are to preach the Gspel and Baptize. St Peter, at Pentecost says “believe and be baptized”. Baptism is regenerative and without it, are still under original sin.

 

[Hiskid1973]

The Scriptures are very clear. In the Great Commission we are to preach the Gspel and Baptize. St Peter, at Pentecost says “believe and be baptized”. Baptism is regenerative and without it, are still under original sin.

Your call, but I know what I experienced…

 

[StTommyMore]

Your call, but I know what I experienced…

Your experience trumps Scripture?

 

[guanophore]

Wow that was a shame…My experience over the last 40 years has been with evangelical
churches the were strong on discipleship…You have to be “in Christ” to be discipled…**You are incorporated into the body of Christ no matter what **physical church you will be going to.

This is what is so puzzling. If this is the case, then what is the offended urgency of taking one’s time to learn the faith?

Peter first preached to Jews, they believed on Jesus…They were added to the church that day…There is a moment where a new creature is born…I had a powerful conversion experience…I heard the gospel and responded. I became part of His body from that evangelistic message…I then got involved in a church and was water baptized about a year later in a farm pond…

Why, you little ducky you!

About a year after that I had an experience with the Holy Spirit that set my faith on fire, a strong faith and boldness to share the gospel…We just had two evangelist outreach in two villages in southeast Asia…New believers in both villages…There isn’t even an “official” church building yet they are being taught the scriptures… They are part of His church, they are no more/less christian or part of the body of Christ than you or I are…We all then mature as we grow in Christ…Christ in us is our hope of Glory…

Doesnt’ sound at all like you felt short shafted because you were not admitted to any sacraments.

Luke 14:27-33
28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build, and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an embassy and asks terms of peace. 33 So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Would this not include renounce all those things to which one might think he had a right, or “deserved” to have?