Starting to agree with Martin Luther

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The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God. Does one really need “the church” to have a relationship with almighty God? Does Jesus Christ not speak to the individual as well? Does he not comfort and support and did he die for the sins of all people? Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, does he not become your personal savior and reside in your heart forever? I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted. He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him. Or Is it when other men have decided you are ready to receive him, then you are ready? I read my Bible every day and I Love Jesus Christ and I feel him with me. Must I wait until I finish RCIA to have a relationship with my God, my Christ? I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will.
 
You need to finish RCIA so you can learn all that the church teaches and why.
 
Starting to agree with Martin Luther
Without intending to sound unsympathetc, I’m not sure your questions relate to Luther.
=rturner76;7776450]The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God. Does one really need “the church” to have a relationship with almighty God?
I’m not sure you would find things terribly different in a Lutheran setting, at least in the LCMS. The Church decides who may take communion based solely on its desire to protect people, considering Paul’s warning that one not eat and drink to condemnation.
More directly, one definitely needs the Church because God established the Church to provide the means of Grace in word and sacrament. Confession/Absolution, The Lord’s Supper, these are found only in the Church. They are the tools of the Holy Spirit, gifts that strengthen our faith, and encourage us to live the life He calls us to live.
Does Jesus Christ not speak to the individual as well? Does he not comfort and support and did he die for the sins of all people?
Of course He does, but most powerfully in the things I mentioned above.
Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, does he not become your personal savior and reside in your heart forever?
Yes, but He also honors your free will to reject Him. He will not “reside in your heart” if you don’t want Him to.
I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted. He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him. Or Is it when other men have decided you are ready to receive him, then you are ready? I read my Bible every day and I Love Jesus Christ and I feel him with me. Must I wait until I finish RCIA to have a relationship with my God, my Christ? I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will.
I’m convinced that, whether as an adult or as a child, it is important for the communion you intend to join, to provide instruction in the beliefs that communion holds. For you to go to confirmation, be it Catholic, Lutheran, or otherwise, isn’t it important to know that which you are confirming?
I don’t believe that RCIA is preventing you from coming to Christ, it is leading you to Him, just as I believe it would be the case if you went through a Lutheran adult catechetical class.
I would encourage you to pray for patience, and discernment. You’re in RCIA for a reason, allow it to play out.

Hope that helps.
Jon
 
He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him.
Right. When they are ready to receive Him. That’s why He didn’t try to stop those who left in John 6.

51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." 52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will.
The Catholic Church can show you to Christ (and Christ to you). Not sure if the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter) can show you to "your Christ".
 
The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God. Does one really need “the church” to have a relationship with almighty God? Does Jesus Christ not speak to the individual as well? Does he not comfort and support and did he die for the sins of all people? Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, does he not become your personal savior and reside in your heart forever? I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted. He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him. Or Is it when other men have decided you are ready to receive him, then you are ready? I read my Bible every day and I Love Jesus Christ and I feel him with me. Must I wait until I finish RCIA to have a relationship with my God, my Christ? I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will.
You have found a pearl of great value. Is it not understandable that you would have to work and struggle to obtain it. If you say, ‘This struggle is too much to pay for this pearl. Instead, I will find one that I can obtain with no effort.’ What does this say about you? What are you saying to Jesus?
 
I will repost here what I also posted in your other thread, just to make sure you see it.

This is one of those times where it would be useful to see exactly what the earliest Christians practiced. Fortunately, there actually IS such a record, and it’s called the Didache. This short writing is the ONLY Christian writing besides the Bible that dates to the time when the Apostles were still alive. In fact, in the early church, it was often brought up as a contender for inclusion in the Bible itself. Now, although the Didache eventually wasn’t included in the Bible, it was rejected ONLY because it was seen as a procedural document on how to conduct Christian ceremonies. In other words, it didn’t provide any new revelation that contributed to our salvation, and as such, wasn’t inspired. It IS, however, an historically accurate document on worship in the first century church.

With that in mind, let’s see what the students of the apostles were taught:

**CHAPTER 9

The Eucharist – The Cup – The Bread**

1 And concerning the Eucharist, hold Eucharist thus: 2 First concerning the Cup, “We give thanks to thee, our Father, for the Holy Vine of David thy child, which, thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy child; to thee be glory for ever.”
3 And concerning the broken Bread: "We give thee thanks, our Father, for the life and knowledge which thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy Child. To thee be glory for ever.

4 As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains, but was brought together and became one, so let thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into thy Kingdom, for thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever."

5 But let none eat or drink of your Eucharist except those who have been baptised in the Lord’s Name. For concerning this also did the Lord say, “Give not that which is holy to the dogs.”

**CHAPTER 14

The Sunday worship**

1 On the Lord’s Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure; 2 but let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled. 3 For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, “In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king,” saith the Lord, “and my name is wonderful among the heathen.”

So, what do we learn from these passages? First, only baptized Christians may partake in the Eucharist. It is accepted that one must follow, practice, and believe in the Christian religion in order to receive. This is not surprising, and it’s how most denominations treat the Eucharist.

The second passage is more interesting. It states that one must only receive communion after confessing major transgressions. In other words, one cannot be in a state of mortal sin and receive the Eucharist. Since Protestants do not have access to the Sacrament of Confession, under Catholic belief, they cannot be guaranteed of their forgiveness. So, as a precaution, Communion is generally denied to them. This is done to protect them from accidentally committing sacrilege. Please note that even CATHOLICS that are in a state of mortal sin and have not attended Confession are to refrain from partaking in the Eucharist! This is not a mere prohibition against Protestants, and often, there will be Catholics sitting in the pews that do not go up to receive for this very reason.
 
The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God.
The Church is rightly careful to protect the faithful, especially those in RCIA from approaching the sacraments without understanding. As far a having a relationship with God, it is through this relationship that one is able to understand. So it is really a symbyonic relationship between the indiviudal, the Ekklesia (Church) and the person of Christ.
Does one really need “the church” to have a relationship with almighty God? Does Jesus Christ not speak to the individual as well? Does he not comfort and support and did he die for the sins of all people?
Certainly Christ speaks to the individual. He also speaks through the Church for He tells us that the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark, (1 Tim 3:15)and that if we have issues we should “tell it to the Church” and then “Listen To the Church” which has the authority “bind and Loose”…"Whatever. (Mt 18:15-18)
Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, does he not become your personal savior and reside in your heart forever?
As I mentioned before, the Church’s part in this is to protect the faithful and to teach them so that they know what they are confessing and can recieve the Eucharist with understadning lest they eat and drink judgement on themselves (1 Cor 11:27-29)
As for Christ entering your heart and residing forever…He will so long as you do not turn away from him and follow his precepts which of course include “listening to The Church”
I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted. He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him. Or Is it when other men have decided you are ready to receive him, then you are ready? I read my Bible every day and I Love Jesus Christ and I feel him with me. Must I wait until I finish RCIA to have a relationship with my God, my Christ? I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will.
I can understand your frustration. But please understand that you are confusing having a relationship with having a full relationship.
Consider this.
When a couple meets, and begins to court, they are growing in their relationship. If it grow suffciently and they become engaged on could say they have aske the other into their hear to dwell for ever. Yet theystill must wait for the wedding in order to enter into that FULL relationship that they both desire.
You are already a member of the Church and (I assume) in just a few days now you will be received fully into The Church.

Peace
James
 
Maybe you could talk to the priest, baptized Christians are different from catechumens who are seeking baptism. You have to receive the sacrament of reconciliation before receiving the eucharist. That’s important. Don’t go to another church, the most intimate personal relationship with Jesus you can have is through the fullness of the Catholic Church. You won’t be dissappointed. Hang in there.
 
Don’t be discouraged. You’ve waited this long, what’s a little longer for something really great. Besides if you want to receive Him in his real presence, He is nowhere else to be found. Maybe this is part of your preperation, the patience He wishes you to develope.
Anyone who has received Him will tell you it is worth the wait.
 
“I want to come to Christ now”

Wow, isn’t that being a bit selfish? You are coming to Christ, you must be patient. You must learn all tha the Church teaches. It is very important stuff for being a Catholic. Today, so many people do not know what the Church teaches. If you are to come into the Church, we want you well prepared so you can give a reasoned defense of her when you are challenged by others. That is why you need to learn all that she teaches.

I will share with you my story about my path to possibly being ordained a permanent deacon. I took a 2 year lay ministry course which was a requirement in my diocese for those considering the deaconate. After those two years, no classes were forming. I moved to another state for two years. Then returned to the area near where i was living before. Another year passed and finally the diocese began taking applications for a new class. I applied. It has been another year and I am now completing a discernment semester and we will finally be told of our final acceptance or rejection into the program this summer. Count it up, it has now been six years since I began all of this process!!! Six years!!!

Not only that, but if I am accepted into this class, I will have to undergo another four years of academic study before I would be ordained. That will be around 10 years for me since I began this whole thing. Ten years!!!

If I can wait that long, you can wait one measly year if the Lord is truly calling you to be Catholic.

I will pray for you, brother. Keep the faith and learn why the Church requires you to do this. It will be well worth it in the end…
 
There is a price and cost for everything. Even God waited over 4,000 years from the time man became enlightened, . . . . until the world was ready for Christ.
 
I think the point is that your desire to be united to Christ through His Church means that Christ is already united to you. That is not in question. But we need the ongoing formation to join His Church and then continue to grow sacramentally in Him etc.

In the days of the Roman persecution of Christians, Christian martyrs would stand before Roman judges to receive their condemnation as throngs of people watched.

As the martyrs were being led away, pagan youths, so very inspired by the example of these martyrs, would rush before the judges to say, “We are Christians too! We are Christians too!” And they would likewise receive the same judgement. The Church taught that these were “baptized in blood.”

However, should those young people have survived - they would have had to go through early Christian RCIA with everyone else!

Remember also that by going through the formal RCIA process and then presenting yourself for baptism - you are giving a great witness to Christ to show that there are people, such as yourself, who are willing to make a public affirmation of their allegiance to Christ and His Church.

In the Eastern Church that I’m in, those baptized at Easter would wear bright clothing all week. And every Easter is like a “renewal of Baptism” for us so we all wear bright clothing during Easter Week - which is also called “Bright Week” as a result.

To be in Christ means to grow in Him and, as you know, that great man of God, John Wesley was very insistent on the process of holiness i.e. prayer, scripture-reading and the reception of the Sacraments.

But there can be no question that the Lord Jesus is living in your heart right now.

Alex
 
The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God. Does one really need “the church” to have a relationship with almighty God? Does Jesus Christ not speak to the individual as well? Does he not comfort and support and did he die for the sins of all people? Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, does he not become your personal savior and reside in your heart forever? I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted. He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him. Or Is it when other men have decided you are ready to receive him, then you are ready? I read my Bible every day and I Love Jesus Christ and I feel him with me. Must I wait until I finish RCIA to have a relationship with my God, my Christ? I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will.
Hmmm…I’m not sure what this has to do with Martin Luther…
The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God.
So does the Lutheran church…there is only one synod of Lutheran churches who do not practice closed communion, and that is the ELCA (liberal/moderate denomination). Wisconsin and Missouri synods are closed communion. Typically you need to be a member, go through membership classes, or speak with a pastor before service.
Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer?
Ok, I think you are mistaken here. The CC nor the Lutheran church “hand out” membership…but the Lutheran church just like the CC, requires baptism, and confirmation (or membership classes for adults). Anyone is welcome to worship, but to become a member, one needs baptism, confirmation, or membership classes.
I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted.
being a member and being a Christian do not happen at the same time…IMO anyway. Luther didn’t really change much about with regards to church membership…so I’m not sure about your Martin Luther comment.

I think you need to just be patient and understand that while you are working through confirmation or RCIA, that it is a time of developing and strengthening your relationship with God, as well as deepening your understanding of what your beliefs are as a member of the church…and how you need to live.

Peace and blessings,
Julie
 
“I want to come to Christ now”

Wow, isn’t that being a bit selfish? You are coming to Christ, you must be patient. You must learn all tha the Church teaches. It is very important stuff for being a Catholic. Today, so many people do not know what the Church teaches. If you are to come into the Church, we want you well prepared so you can give a reasoned defense of her when you are challenged by others. That is why you need to learn all that she teaches.

I will share with you my story about my path to possibly being ordained a permanent deacon. I took a 2 year lay ministry course which was a requirement in my diocese for those considering the deaconate. After those two years, no classes were forming. I moved to another state for two years. Then returned to the area near where i was living before. Another year passed and finally the diocese began taking applications for a new class. I applied. It has been another year and I am now completing a discernment semester and we will finally be told of our final acceptance or rejection into the program this summer. Count it up, it has now been six years since I began all of this process!!! Six years!!!

Not only that, but if I am accepted into this class, I will have to undergo another four years of academic study before I would be ordained. That will be around 10 years for me since I began this whole thing. Ten years!!!

If I can wait that long, you can wait one measly year if the Lord is truly calling you to be Catholic.

I will pray for you, brother. Keep the faith and learn why the Church requires you to do this. It will be well worth it in the end…
One thing they will hopefully teach you about in pastoral care classes as you study for the diaconate is to not compare/contrast your struggles with those whom God has entrusted to to your care, so as not to denigrate their struggles because you perceive them to be less significant than your own.
 
Iowajay,

you are absolutely right! As I reread my post I can see how it comes across as heavyhanded. I did not intend it as such. I still have a lot to learn myself!

I just wanted to get the message across that we all struggle with wants and desires but God gives them to us in His own time, not ours…

God Bless!
 
I always wondered about the stages/ceremonies church’s have…Peter’s first street preaching added 3,000 to the church in one day…I had a pretty radical conversion experience Aug.73 and then learned about spiritual rebirth…From darkness to His marvelous light…
 
“I want to come to Christ now”

Wow, isn’t that being a bit selfish? You are coming to Christ, you must be patient. You must learn all tha the Church teaches. It is very important stuff for being a Catholic. Today, so many people do not know what the Church teaches. If you are to come into the Church, we want you well prepared so you can give a reasoned defense of her when you are challenged by others. That is why you need to learn all that she teaches.
So are you saying that a 7 year old, who receives first Communion and in some dioceses receives Confirmation has learned ALL the Church teaches.

I’m sure my opinion is not the same as most, but honestly, I think at times the Church’s PEOPLE who run these programs do hold up others from joining longer than necessary.

A baptized Christian is NOT to be confused with a non-Christian. If one has been living a Christian life, then the priest is suppossed to make sure that they have an acceptable understanding of Church teachings and allow them to join.

TOO MANY parishes today, leave it all to RCIA and therefore make many wait longer than was intended.

"“Those who have already been baptized in another Church or ecclesial community should not be treated as catechumens or so designated. Their doctrinal and spiritual preparation for reception into full Catholic communion should be determined according to the individual case, that is, it should depend on the extent to which the baptized person has led a Christian life within a community of faith and been appropriately catechized to deepen his or her inner adherence to the Church” (NSC 30)

The U.S. Conference of Bishops states: “Those baptized persons who have lived as Christians and need only instruction in the Catholic tradition and a degree of probation within the Catholic community should not be asked to undergo a full program parallel to the catechumenate” (NSC 31)

"[t]he reception of candidates into the communion of the Catholic Church should ordinarily take place at the Sunday Eucharist of the parish community, in such a way that it is understood that they are indeed Christian believers who have already shared in the sacramental life of the Church and are now welcomed into the Catholic Eucharistic community . . . " (NSC 32)
 
The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God. Does one really need “the church” to have a relationship with almighty God? Does Jesus Christ not speak to the individual as well? Does he not comfort and support and did he die for the sins of all people? Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, does he not become your personal savior and reside in your heart forever? I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted. He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him. Or Is it when other men have decided you are ready to receive him, then you are ready? I read my Bible every day and I Love Jesus Christ and I feel him with me. Must I wait until I finish RCIA to have a relationship with my God, my Christ? I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will.
As a former Lutheran I can assure you that Luther did not view Christianity as something that concerns only the individual Christian and God. He firmly upheld the place of the Church as the possessor of sacramental grace through the Office of the Keys, which exercises its responsibility by preparing Christians through baptism and confirmation for reception of the Eucharist. For example, in Article VII of the Augsburg Confession we read: “The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.” The word “rightly” is from the Latin “rectus” which means orderly or correctly, i.e. in an orthodox manner but also according to the regular adminstration of the Church. I spent two years in confirmation, and was required to memorize Luther’s Small Catechism and score at least 90% in each test or retake them until I did. The purpose of this isn’t to punish people or put undue obstacles in their way, but to educate them and help them to understand their faith and draw closer to Christ. I would advise you to be patient and take the time to learn and grow before your reception into the Church, and know that impatience comes from the evil one.
 
So are you saying that a 7 year old, who receives first Communion and in some dioceses receives Confirmation has learned ALL the Church teaches.

I’m sure my opinion is not the same as most, but honestly, I think at times the Church’s PEOPLE who run these programs do hold up others from joining longer than necessary.

A baptized Christian is NOT to be confused with a non-Christian. If one has been living a Christian life, then the priest is suppossed to make sure that they have an acceptable understanding of Church teachings and allow them to join.

TOO MANY parishes today, leave it all to RCIA and therefore make many wait longer than was intended.

"“Those who have already been baptized in another Church or ecclesial community should not be treated as catechumens or so designated. Their doctrinal and spiritual preparation for reception into full Catholic communion should be determined according to the individual case, that is, it should depend on the extent to which the baptized person has led a Christian life within a community of faith and been appropriately catechized to deepen his or her inner adherence to the Church” (NSC 30)

The U.S. Conference of Bishops states: “Those baptized persons who have lived as Christians and need only instruction in the Catholic tradition and a degree of probation within the Catholic community should not be asked to undergo a full program parallel to the catechumenate” (NSC 31)

"[t]he reception of candidates into the communion of the Catholic Church should ordinarily take place at the Sunday Eucharist of the parish community, in such a way that it is understood that they are indeed Christian believers who have already shared in the sacramental life of the Church and are now welcomed into the Catholic Eucharistic community . . . " (NSC 32)
And that is great all but for one thing, many parish have oinly one priest and to expect him to handle this i this way on top of all the other jobs he has is to much to ask. the 9 or 10 months that a person goes through in the normal RCIA session is not to long for a person to wait to come into full communion.
 
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