Starting to agree with Martin Luther

[StTommyMore]

The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God. Does one really need “the church” to have a relationship with almighty God? Does Jesus Christ not speak to the individual as well? Does he not comfort and support and did he die for the sins of all people?

There has to be a church in the Christian understanding of faith and of human existence. Christianity is not the idealogical creation of religious enthusiasm, nor of the religious experience of an individual. It comes to the individual rather by the same route from which he receives the rest of his life, including his intellectual and spiritual life. It comes from history. No one develops and unfolds from out of the purely formal and antecedent structure of his essence. Rather he receives the concreteness of his life from a community of persons, from intercommunication, from an objective spirit, from a history, from a people and from a family and he develops it only within this community, and this includes what is most personal and proper to himself. This is also true for salvation and for the Christian religion, and for the Christianity of an individual.
–Karl Rahner, SJ in Foundations of Christian Faith

I do not understand the insular aspect that people want to assign religion. Christians should not embrace the idea that their faith is “personal” and has no place in community. This was a bad idea that grew out of the foundation of all bad ideas of the modern world, that is, the debacle of human history known as the Enlightenment. Jesus did not found a Church so that we could ignore it and only practice our faith in the privacy of our own homes. We are to assemble together and worship in concert, but only in the way in which has been revealed, and the vehicle for Divine Revelation has always been the Church.

 

[Hiskid1973]

But coming to faith is a personal decision…We then become part of a family of living stones.
Our church teaches us and allows body ministry to happen …It’s still our responsibility to use what we are taught to mature…Desiring to walk in the spirit allows us to overcome the flesh…

 

[StTommyMore]

But coming to faith is a personal decision…We then become part of a family of living stones.
Our church teaches us and allows body ministry to happen …It’s still our responsibility to use what we are taught to mature…Desiring to walk in the spirit allows us to overcome the flesh…

Balderdash. There is no evidence for this kind of individualism either in Sacred Scripture or Tradition. The Apostle Paul did not just go off on his own upon his encounter with Christ. He went to the Church. You give the follower of Christ too much authority. We do not dictate to God how we are to be used in ministry. We prayerfully make ourselves available, and in doing so, allow the Church to direct us in the path we should follow.

 

[heart4home]

And that is great all but for one thing, many parish have oinly one priest and to expect him to handle this i this way on top of all the other jobs he has is to much to ask. t**he 9 or 10 months that a person goes through in the normal RCIA session is not to long **for a person to wait to come into full communion.

I’m not suggesting that the Priest be responsible for individual instruction, I’m saying that a meeting between the two could help discern the person’s understanding of Church Teachings, their past Faith Journey and whether or not the Priest is comfortable allowing them to be admitted at other times through the year, instead of waiting for “Easter” of the next year.

If I was joining any Church, outside the Catholic Church if the minister could not take the time to meet with me once, I’d have some pretty serious reservations.

Our priests are amazing people who give their whole lives to God. I believe that many of them (not all, but many) would be willing to spend an hour or two discerning somebody’s readiness to join, but sometimes procedures get in the way.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Balderdash. There is no evidence for this kind of individualism either in Sacred Scripture or Tradition. The Apostle Paul did not just go off on his own upon his encounter with Christ. He went to the Church. You give the follower of Christ too much authority. We do not dictate to God how we are to be used in ministry. We prayerfully make ourselves available, and in doing so, allow the Church to direct us in the path we should follow.

Never said anything about going off on your own…

 

[StTommyMore]

Never said anything about going off on your own…

The fact remains that faith is not just about “me and Jesus.” It is a COVENANT. It is a sacred family bond.

 

[Hiskid1973]

It is when it’s choosing to follow Him and making the correct choices to mature…But being
in church is where we get accountable to one another to promote that maturity…We are apart of a family to provide a nurturing environment…He gives us His word to hide in our hearts
We are to study it…How we respond to the Holy Spirit’s working in us affects whether our
works will provide gold/silver vrs. ash as a reward…

 

[StTommyMore]

It is when it’s choosing to follow Him and making the correct choices to mature…But being
in church is where we get accountable to one another to promote that maturity…We are apart of a family to provide a nurturing environment…He gives us His word to hide in our hearts
We are to study it…How we respond to the Holy Spirit’s working in us affects whether our
works will provide gold/silver vrs. ash as a reward…

Get a Spiritual Director. Depending on yourself leads to heresy.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Get a Spiritual Director. Depending on yourself leads to heresy.

Never said I depend on myself…

 

[StTommyMore]

Never said I depend on myself…

That is the modus operandi of Protestantism. If you disagree with a pastor, leave and find one you agree with. Submission to authority is never the answer. After all that is what Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and the others did. They ran off and started their own Church rather than work for reform from within. Those that chose the latter method tend to have “Saint” in front of their names.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I’m not suggesting that the Priest be responsible for individual instruction, I’m saying that a meeting between the two could help discern the person’s understanding of Church Teachings, their past Faith Journey and whether or not the Priest is comfortable allowing them to be admitted at other times through the year, instead of waiting for “Easter” of the next year.

If I was joining any Church, outside the Catholic Church if the minister could not take the time to meet with me once, I’d have some pretty serious reservations.

Our priests are amazing people who give their whole lives to God. I believe that many of them (not all, but many) would be willing to spend an hour or two discerning somebody’s readiness to join, but sometimes procedures get in the way.

I very much agree and to the best of my knowledge the priest do meet with those coming into the church on an idividual bases at least once.
However have that person go through the RCIA even if coming from a different tradition with very similar beleifs gives the person the oppertunity to learn more of what the Church teaches and gives them the time to decern if they truely except church teaching. Again the 9 or 10 months that this takes is not to much to ask. this does not keep them from coming to Mass, Nor being apart for the parish life. it is a discernment time.

Also if they can not take that time how much do they really feel that it is what is right?

 

[KevinJFUm]

StTommyMore is funny because Saint Thomas More was exactly one of those saints. Hurrah for Saint Thomas!

Also, I believe you are referring to modern evangelical Protestantism, not Martin Luther(-anism?). The idea that because you yell “Jesus is Lord” you are a Christian is no more sensible than the idea that because you yell “Allah Akbah” you are a Muslim.

THE questions you MUST ask anyone who converts so quickly to Christianity are, “What does this mean? What does your conversion mean to your life? WHO is Jesus Christ?”

Now, yes. Peter and the other apostles did convert in the masses, but he most certainly explained more than, “Jesus died for you. Say he is Lord and you are saved.” Otherwise, what is the purpose of all those apostolic letters in the New Testament?

Patience, patience.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kevin J. F. Um

 

[StTommyMore]

StTommyMore is funny because Saint Thomas More was exactly one of those saints. Hurrah for Saint Thomas!

Also, I believe you are referring to modern evangelical Protestantism, not Martin Luther(-anism?). The idea that because you yell “Jesus is Lord” you are a Christian is no more sensible than the idea that because you yell “Allah Akbah” you are a Muslim.

THE questions you MUST ask anyone who converts so quickly to Christianity are, “What does this mean? What does your conversion mean to your life? WHO is Jesus Christ?”

Now, yes. Peter and the other apostles did convert in the masses, but he most certainly explained more than, “Jesus died for you. Say he is Lord and you are saved.” Otherwise, what is the purpose of all those apostolic letters in the New Testament?

Patience, patience.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kevin J. F. Um

Even when Peter was directly asked “What must I do to be saved,” his reply wans not “Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.” Neither was it “Now repeat after me…” This was the response (I will even use the KJV, the most commonly used Protestant translation):

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Note what I bolded. How does one receive the gift of salvation? Not by saying the “sinners’ prayer,” not be “making Jesus Christ your Peron Lord and Saviour”. You must repent, that is, to turn from sin, and you must be baptized. At least that is the first step on a long journey.

 

[Hiskid1973]

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

I don’t see anyone in this thread denying that…It looked like the Ethiopian eunuch had it
all taken care of before he even made it home…How do you think evangelists and missionaries work today…

 

[JonNC]

Even when Peter was directly asked “What must I do to be saved,” his reply wans not “Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.” Neither was it “Now repeat after me…” This was the response (I will even use the KJV, the most commonly used Protestant translation):

Note what I bolded. How does one receive the gift of salvation? Not by saying the “sinners’ prayer,” not be “making Jesus Christ your Peron Lord and Saviour”. You must repent, that is, to turn from sin, and you must be baptized. At least that is the first step on a long journey.

No Lutheran I know would disagree.

Jon

 

[StTommyMore]

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

I don’t see anyone in this thread denying that…It looked like the Ethiopian eunuch had it
all taken care of before he even made it home…How do you think evangelists and missionaries work today…

Depends on the evangelist…

 

[1voice]

The Church decides who may take communion, and many other things that people seek in their relationship with God. Does one really need “the church” to have a relationship with almighty God? Does Jesus Christ not speak to the individual as well? Does he not comfort and support and did he die for the sins of all people? Lately I feel the Catholic hands out memberships to whom they see fit to be a believer. If you are baptized, are you not a believer? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, does he not become your personal savior and reside in your heart forever? I love God and I love the CHurch but the fact that I cannot be a member until other men say it is my time…I don’t think that is what Jesus wanted. He wants men to come to him as they are when they are ready to receive him. Or Is it when other men have decided you are ready to receive him, then you are ready? I read my Bible every day and I Love Jesus Christ and I feel him with me. Must I wait until I finish RCIA to have a relationship with my God, my Christ? I want to come to Christ now and if the catholic Church will not show me to my Christ, another Church will.

I was a Catholic for the first 25 years of my life. If you are not born Catholic you must go through training to be accepted as an adult in order to become a member. It is similar to the Episcopal Church. You cant be an official member unless you learn the rules. The difference between the Catholic Church and other Christian churches (like the Episcopal Church… which I use only as one example), as far as I can figure, is that Catholics sincerely believe that salvation can only be attained through membership in the Catholic Church … In most other Churches it is accepted a person can be a Christian that is already saved (who has personally asked Jesus to be the Savior and Lord of their life) … The Catholic Church believes you cant have salvation without membership in the church… except under very rare circumstances.

There are distinct differences between the salvation as described in the Bible and the Catholic concept of salvation.

Peter, in the book of Acts, tells 3000 people the way to become a Christian on Pentecost … Peter simply said from the moment you repent and give your heart to Jesus you have the assurance of salvation … (repentance is a determined decision to turn from sin and follow Jesus’ teachings … and then following through) … the follow through is crucial … salvation is now in Peter’s message.
Catholics believe that there is no real way to know for sure if you are really saved even if you are a good Catholic… you just have to keep striving and hoping that your good deeds outweigh the bad deeds and you have enough indulgences in your favor so you dont have to spend too much time in purgaatory … or better yet, none at all … and most Catholics are very uncomfortable with the concept of salvation as understood by non Catholics… they think that the concept of ‘knowing in your heart that you are saved by the blood of Jesus’ … is a sin of presumption.
Catholics dont believe in the concept of salvation in the same way as other Christians. They believe that membership as well as following Catholic teachings are what can lead to salvation … but they give no guarantee such as this statement in the Bible … ‘If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord you will be saved’

 

[StTommyMore]

I was a Catholic for the first 25 years of my life. If you are not born Catholic you must go through training to be accepted as an adult in order to become a member. It is similar to the Episcopal Church. You cant be an official member unless you learn the rules. The difference between the Catholic Church and other Christian churches (like the Episcopal Church… which I use only as one example), as far as I can figure, is that Catholics sincerely believe that salvation can only be attained through membership in the Catholic Church … In most other Churches it is accepted a person can be a Christian that is already saved (who has personally asked Jesus to be the Savior and Lord of their life) … The Catholic Church believes you cant have salvation without membership in the church… except under very rare circumstances.

There are distinct differences between the salvation as described in the Bible and the Catholic concept of salvation.

Peter, in the book of Acts, tells 3000 people the way to become a Christian on Pentecost … Peter simply said from the moment you repent and give your heart to Jesus you have the assurance of salvation … (repentance is a determined decision to turn from sin and follow Jesus’ teachings … and then following through) … the follow through is crucial … salvation is now in Peter’s message.
Catholics believe that there is no real way to know for sure if you are really saved even if you are a good Catholic… you just have to keep striving and hoping that your good deeds outweigh the bad deeds and you have enough indulgences in your favor so you dont have to spend too much time in purgaatory … or better yet, none at all … and most Catholics are very uncomfortable with the concept of salvation as understood by non Catholics… they think that the concept of ‘knowing in your heart that you are saved by the blood of Jesus’ … is a sin of presumption.
Catholics dont believe in the concept of salvation in the same way as other Christians. They believe that membership as well as following Catholic teachings are what can lead to salvation … but they give no guarantee such as this statement in the Bible … ‘If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord you will be saved’

You have shown from this post that not only do you not know what is taught by the Catholic Church, you also do not know what the Bible says about salvation. Quoting a single passage out of context makes this all too clear.

 

[1voice]

You have shown from this post that not only do you not know what is taught by the Catholic Church, you also do not know what the Bible says about salvation. Quoting a single passage out of context makes this all too clear.

If a Catholic leaves the Catholic Church for another Christian church … can he take his salvation with him?

 

[StTommyMore]

If a Catholic leaves the Catholic Church for another Christian church … can he take his salvation with him?

The question must be asked why someone would leave the fullness of revelation for a man-made organization that is in possession of less Truth. I have never met a lapsed Catholic that did not leave for one of two reasons:

1. 
   *]They did not agree with one of the moral teachings of the Church
   *]They failed to take ownership of the faith imparted to them and were seduced by externals