Starting to agree with Martin Luther

[1voice]

The question must be asked why someone would leave the fullness of revelation for a man-made organization that is in possession of less Truth. I have never met a lapsed Catholic that did not leave for one of two reasons:

1. 
   *]They did not agree with one of the moral teachings of the Church
   *]They failed to take ownership of the faith imparted to them and were seduced by externals

1. 
   So ex Catholics who choose another expression of their Christian faith can only be immoral or seduced … and lose their salvation?

 

[Lapey]

Can I take that as a no?

No, but you can take it as a sign that you have no idea what the Church teaches and have no idea of what salvation through Christ is. Are you truly “saved”? Yes I mean you personally. If so how?

By what you wrote here it appears that you are saved by your action of asking Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. My salvation has come through the Grace of God and thus baptised into His Church and into His family. By His grace my sins are forgiven through the sacrements, I recieve His Grace which flows through His Church.

If I choose to leave His Church I leave the sacrements and thus His grace, to turn my back on His Church is to turn my back on Him.

No where in Church teaching will you find that only Catholics will be in heaven, neither will you find that all Catholics will be there.

PS. You are still Catholic, you cannot wash it off, just not in communion with His Church. That was your choice, you can choose to come home, this is a perfect time to do just that.

 

[Hiskid1973]

So ex Catholics can only be immoral or seduced … and lose their salvation?

I know this is off subject but we have a few catholic’s coming to our church.We are a small church in the country (300-400) that is loving/caring and a close family…One is a man
who befriended our pastor and came to visit…We have ministry time during the service andnHe went up for prayer and God did some miraculous work in His life…The man was lit on fire for the Lord, so much so that it affected his whole catholic family…The all work together running a grocery store…The whole family has visited the church twice now…

 

[Lapey]

So ex Catholics who choose another expression of their Christian faith can only be immoral or seduced … and lose their salvation?

By your comments it is obvious you left something you didn’t understand or truly know what you were a part of.

So tell me, why did you leave? And yes, you can “lose your salvation” to use your words.

St. Paul says we work out our salvation through fear and trembling. Do you tremble with fear, or are you confident of your dsestination in the afterlife?

 

[StTommyMore]

I know this is off subject but we have a few catholic’s coming to our church.We are a small church in the country (300-400) that is loving/caring and a close family…One is a man
who befriended our pastor and came to visit…We have ministry time during the service andnHe went up for prayer and God did some miraculous work in His life…The man was lit on fire for the Lord, so much so that it affected his whole catholic family…The all work together running a grocery store…The whole family has visited the church twice now…

This fits with my previous statements–seduced by externals. Faith is not based on warm and fuzzy feelings at a service. Faith ios based on the Crucified and Risen One.

 

[StTommyMore]

So ex Catholics who choose another expression of their Christian faith can only be immoral or seduced … and lose their salvation?

There is no other reasion that a Catholci would leave. People seeking Truth enter the Catholic Church…they never leave.

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskid1973
I know this is off subject but we have a few catholic’s coming to our church.We are a small church in the country (300-400) that is loving/caring and a close family…One is a man
who befriended our pastor and came to visit…We have ministry time during the service andnHe went up for prayer and God did some miraculous work in His life…The man was lit on fire for the Lord, so much so that it affected his whole catholic family…The all work together running a grocery store…The whole family has visited the church twice now…

This fits with my previous statements–seduced by externals. Faith is not based on warm and fuzzy feelings at a service. Faith ios based on the Crucified and Risen One.

… So, Jesus promised to be in the midst of those two or three that gather in his name only if they are Roman Catholics?

 

[1voice]

There is no other reasion that a Catholci would leave. People seeking Truth enter the Catholic Church…they never leave.

Are the Eastern Orthodox Christians immoral or seduced?

 

[1voice]

I know this is off subject but we have a few catholic’s coming to our church.We are a small church in the country (300-400) that is loving/caring and a close family…One is a man
who befriended our pastor and came to visit…We have ministry time during the service andnHe went up for prayer and God did some miraculous work in His life…The man was lit on fire for the Lord, so much so that it affected his whole catholic family…The all work together running a grocery store…The whole family has visited the church twice now…

My family had a similar experience many years ago now… My Dad (he will be 90 this year), had been a Catholic all his life. He caught the fire of the Holy Spirit in his mid forties. He was invited to an Episcopal conference by one of my brothers and he said afterward … that he had never been taught that it was possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus and really expect the Holy Spirit to come alive inside. He said that he knew for the first time that Jesus’ love is real and he is a real, live Savior that loved him dearly and personally. He was deeply and dramatically touched by God . From that day on he began to change into a new man with a ravenous hunger for God’s word… and the entire family was affected and blessed. Even my large clan of (Catholic) cousins who had known him all their lives and openly disliked him in the past were startled at the changes that they saw in him. It was literally like the change that happened to Scrooge at the end of the Christmas story. He became very active in a little Pentecostal church. After retiring he went to Bible school and then went on multiple mission trips to Peru… traveling up the Amazon to the villages and helping to establish a school for Pastors in the city of Iquitos. He is still vibrant and loves the word of God and his relationship with his Father in Heaven through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Having known my Dad before and after … I witnessed an absolute miracle.

 

[1voice]

You have shown from this post that not only do you not know what is taught by the Catholic Church …

Are you saying that Catholics do not believe that indulgences are a method of reducing time in Purgatory?

 

[Holly3278]

We most certainly do need the Church to guide us. That said, Martin Luther may have been right about some things but he was only right if he agreed with the Church. Unfortunately, Martin Luther was a heretic and preached many false teachings. In fact, he even tried to have the Book of James removed from his version of the New Testament.

 

[StTommyMore]

Are you saying that Catholics do not believe that indulgences are a method of reducing time in Purgatory?

They are, either for ourselves or others if we are righlty disposed. Indulgences are not easy to attain, particularly the requirement that we “be unattatched to all sin, even venial ones.” Also “shortening time” may not be a very good articulation, as we do not know how time operates in Purgatory. Perhaps a better articulation would to call it a “reduction of temporal punishment due sin.”

 

[StTommyMore]

that he had never been taught that it was possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus and really expect the Holy Spirit to come alive inside. He said that he knew for the first time that Jesus’ love is real and he is a real, live Savior that loved him dearly and personally.

I must assume he never took the responsibility upon himself to read about the Saints.

 

[StTommyMore]

Are the Eastern Orthodox Christians immoral or seduced?

That would be entirely dependent on why one would have left the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church

 

[StTommyMore]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiskid1973
I know this is off subject but we have a few catholic’s coming to our church.We are a small church in the country (300-400) that is loving/caring and a close family…One is a man
who befriended our pastor and came to visit…We have ministry time during the service andnHe went up for prayer and God did some miraculous work in His life…The man was lit on fire for the Lord, so much so that it affected his whole catholic family…The all work together running a grocery store…The whole family has visited the church twice now…

… So, Jesus promised to be in the midst of those two or three that gather in his name only if they are Roman Catholics?

Christ is present in multiple ways, dome of which are enjoyed by our separated brethren, but in their fullness only in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Christ is present:

• When two are mre are gathered in His name. This would include Protestant sevices, classes at Christian Schools, family gatherings, frieds meeting for coffee, rtc.
• In the proclamation of the Word. Agin, this occurs any time the Word is proclaimed, including Bible Studies Protestant Sevices, and Mass.
• In the person of the Priest. This is only true for assemblies with valid Holy Orders, which would limit itg to Catholic and Orthodox clergy.
• The Blessed Sacrament. Since Protestants deny Transubstantiation, Christ is not present in the Clebration of the Lord’s Supper in a real way. In the Mass, His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity is truly present under the appearance of bread and wine.

 

[KevinJFUm]

From my experience as a young Catholic, most “Catholics” who attend Protestant services do so because of the fellowship and the HUMAN welcome they receive. So, again, StTommyMore is correct in outlining that those who leave the Church do so because of the externals.

Now, do not confuse this with saying that salvation is ONLY within the Church. The Catechism only makes it explicit that those who LEAVE the Church for another one, after having been AWARE of its teachings, move away from salvation.

For example, many Catholics who are uncomfortable with Church teachings on abortion, gay marriage and contraception often become Protestants because it liberates them. So, it’s not at all surprising why the Church would say those who leave the Church abandon their means of salvation.

The issue of Catholics who LEAVE, however, is different from the issue of those who have never heard of Catholicism and yet (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) practice Catholic teachings.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kevin.

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
that he had never been taught that it was possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus and really expect the Holy Spirit to come alive inside. He said that he knew for the first time that Jesus’ love is real and he is a real, live Savior that loved him dearly and personally.

I must assume he never took the responsibility upon himself to read about the Saints.

He went to Catholic school.

… There is no comparison between reading about God’s love and experiencing it.

 

[Hiskid1973]

My family had a similar experience many years ago now… My Dad (he will be 90 this year), had been a Catholic all his life. He caught the fire of the Holy Spirit in his mid forties. He was invited to an Episcopal conference by one of my brothers and he said afterward … that he had never been taught that it was possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus and really expect the Holy Spirit to come alive inside…

Thanks for sharing that…I love to read/hear testimonies of lives changed by the Lord…I have a friend(old druggie) who the Lord touch with a vision during a high on acid…I don’t remember specifics but he sought our a church and committed his life to Christ…He has quite a gift in street ministry.

 

[StTommyMore]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
that he had never been taught that it was possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus and really expect the Holy Spirit to come alive inside. He said that he knew for the first time that Jesus’ love is real and he is a real, live Savior that loved him dearly and personally.

He went to Catholic school.

… There is no comparison between reading about God’s love and experiencing it.

He went to Catholic schools means NOTHING. One must take ownership of their faith, It is every believers responsibility. Spending an hour a week in Mass is not enough. Even Catholic education is not enough. You have to make it your own. When people say that they “Aren’t being fed” it means:

• They have ZERO understanding of the Eucharist
• They have not devoted themselves to the faith
• They don’t find Masss entertaining enough for them

 

[SteveVH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
that he had never been taught that it was possible to have a personal relationship with Jesus and really expect the Holy Spirit to come alive inside. He said that he knew for the first time that Jesus’ love is real and he is a real, live Savior that loved him dearly and personally.

He went to Catholic school.

… There is no comparison between reading about God’s love and experiencing it.

There seems to be an underlying assumption here that Catholics do not experience the love of God, rather they only read about it. I agree with you that there is a difference in learning about God’s love and experiencing that love. But I have done both in the Catholic Church and know many who share the same experience.

We must seek if we are to find. Those that are left wanting in the Catholic Church have only themselves to blame.