Starting to agree with Martin Luther

[StTommyMore]

It also contains several serious theological errors, not the least of which is a deficient understanding of the Church, the bride of Christ.

I understand this, but it has so many I didn’t know where to begin.

 

[GaryTaylor]

the post you are applauding is not to be commended. The attitude it presents is one of rebellion, which is contrary to the laws of God.

Amen, isn’t that something. What I find facinating I have not one but “two” very close friends from youth who are Baptist Ministers. This heresy is non-existant with them, which makes me wonder what exactly dealing here on CAF.

At this point in point in their churchs both are willing to put aside all denominational thinking, and admitt they may in fact not have it all right. And the message is unity of Christianity not squabbling over intentioanlly picked issues which divide.

That sounds like a play right out of satans handbook.

Noentheless

Maybe we should talk about the wonderfull statement “If you are Baptized does that not make you a believer”? A serious flaw exists in this thinking!

Faith is an infused Supernatural virtue that each receive at the moment of Baptism. But this infused virture does not always remain in the Baptised Soul. It many case’s it is LOST! Obviuosly many are not aware they have an “obligation” to preserve this virtue. We haev an obligation to preserve out Faith. The basis of our Salvation is our faith. It is impossible to please God without faith. Faith alone is “not” enough, but it is absolutely necessary for our salvation. If aith is not preserved it is taken away from from us, and we “cannot” be saved unless we regain this faith. Our faith is preserved in the Catholic Church and in the constant use of the Sacrements. Thinking you have preserved you faith with out Church is a foold path to destruction and lie by satan to lead souls astry.

God Bless, Gary

God Bless, gary

 

[guanophore]

I understand this, but it has so many I didn’t know where to begin.

I think the reason that so many of the doctrinal errors of our separated brethren emanate from a deficient understanding of the Church is because the root of the Reformation was the goal to jettison what they understood as “Church”. They did not have an understanding that the Church is greater than the fallible members that are a part of her. When they saw the clergy in their part of the world was corrupt, they equated this corruption with the Holy Bride of Christ. Not undertanding that, although men are always in need of reform, doctrine is not.

Anxious to return to the purity they witnessed in the NT church, they began to reframe the Apostolic TEaching, so that they could justify separating from the authority appointed by Christ. In this way they differed from CAtholic reformers, who understood that the Church is not defined by the wolves who are among her sheep. Through their prayers, sacrifices, and courageous confrontation of corruption, they brought purity to the Church without creating new doctrines.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Of course there is acknowledgement that there is truth in all religions, and that the Holy Spirit works through these to bring souls to Himself. This is also part of the Catechism. But when they come to Christ, they come through the Church, as He cannot be separated from His One Body.

Thats it, and its a stumbling block for many in particular when ecumenism is confused with the true path to God.

We can say as humans born on earth we are all children of God since God is the author of life. And this is a common bond with all mankind which we should all strive to uphold first and foremost were dialogue is possible with others of different faiths. Its brings us together instead of first focusing of differences. Thats the path of ignorance and leads but to further seperation by division.

But as guanophore also explains here this dialogue must in the end bring us to Jesus Christ in His Church on Earth.

But I also agree that should any question arrise, its most important to address it. Many fail by believing they “think” they have it right and understood, without constant confrontations of their own thinking.

Listen my brother and sisters, I would rather argue and debate and be wrong 100- times in a row, to end up on the other side “right”. Then to assume I understand and have it right, not say a word and continue along in error

So something must be said for that. And being wrong is such a common human trait it should also not deter one from being caught in their own feelings and a prisoner to them which causes withdrawal and an ability to continue to move foward.

God Bless All my Brothers and Sisters on this Sunday, May God give you the strength to continue on, in this most difficult period! Gary

 

[PRmerger]

Not all roads, just roads taken by those on a journey to God. But fortunately for us humans, there isn’t just one road.

This paradigm that “there are many paths up the mountain” has been dismissed by the Magisterium as a “perverse opinion”. It is known as the sin of “indifferentism”.

This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. -Mirari Vos–On Liberalism and Religious Indifferentism

 

[PRmerger]

Not all roads, just roads taken by those on a journey to God. But fortunately for us humans, there isn’t just one road.

Additionally, this heresy of indifferentism is addressed by Catholic philosopher extraordinaire, Peter Kreeft:

"The world is a big place, the objector reasons; ‘different strokes for different folks’. How insufferably narrow-minded to claim that Christianity is the one true religion! God just has to be more open-minded than that.

This is the single most common objection to the Faith today, for ‘today’ worships not God but equality. It fears being right where others are wrong more than it fears being wrong. It worships democracy and resents the fact that God is an absolute monarch." --Peter Kreeft

The errors in this metaphor of religion being a “path on the mountain” are that it presumes that:

1. the paths go UP.
2. that man makes the path.
3. that religion is man’s search for God.

However, Christianity proposes these Truths about the “path on the mountain”:

1. there is just ONE PATH in which God came DOWN to show us the way, the truth and the life.
2. all other religions are man-made attempts to find God; Christianity is God reaching down from heaven and lifting us up.
3. Christianity is GOD’S SEARCH FOR MAN! He is always in passionate pursuit of us!

As Kreeft states: [SIGN1] There is no human way up the mountain, only a divine way down![/SIGN1]

Yet, one must understand this with some nuance. The Catholic Church also considers it a heresy to claim that Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc are condemned to hell.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church).

 

[ForeverGrace]

rturner76,

You are spot on. Your relationship with Christ is yours and you do not need anyone to tell you when, where or how you have that relationship. That is the essence of being a protestant. Scripture will lead you to truth

If you would like to read up on Martin Luther I can give you some great links. Luther was not without flaws and warts, just like all of us, but he knew sinful practices when he saw them.

In a forum such as this, it’s easy to see how people respond out of emotion (not all of them). Sadly, Luther’s faults get blown up and his virtues minimized. You can find the truth for yourself. It’s easy to judge Catholics, but I have found that much like protestants, they will all have a slightly different understanding of teachings and so it’s best to love them the way they come.

There are many wonderful Catholic people here that I truly respect because above all, they love Jesus.

God Bless

 

[PRmerger]

rturner76,
If you would like to read up on Martin Luther I can give you some great links. Luther was not without flaws and warts, just like all of us, but he knew sinful practices when he saw them.

God Bless

Yes. Sinful practices. Not sinful teachings.

Unfortunately, Luther confused the practice with the teaching.

 

[Rence]

The CCC speaks for itself:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

A non-Catholic Christian who knows the Gospel of Christ, and seeks God with a sencere heart, and who is moved by grace, and who tries in his/her actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – he/she may achieve eternal salvation as well. So right there in black and while in the Cathechisms proves that Catholics aren’t going to be the only ones in Heaven.

 

[StTommyMore]

The CCC speaks for itself:

A non-Catholic Christian who knows the Gospel of Christ, and seeks God with a sencere heart, and who is moved by grace, and who tries in his/her actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – he/she may achieve eternal salvation as well. So right there in black and while in the Cathechisms proves that Catholics aren’t going to be the only ones in Heaven.

Are you still cherry-picking the Catechism?

 

[Rence]

Are you still cherry-picking the Catechism?

No, I’m reading it

 

[StTommyMore]

No you are not. You are arguing indiffrentism, which cannot be found in the Catechism. The Catechism does not teach that all paths lead to God. The fullness of Truth subsits in the Catholic Church alone.

 

[Rence]

No you are not. You are arguing indiffrentism, which cannot be found in the Catechism. The Catechism does not teach that all paths lead to God. The fullness of Truth subsits in the Catholic Church alone.

Yes, I am. The Catechism says this, I didn’t make it up and it speaks for itself:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

If you don’t like what it says, you’re really taking it up with the wrong person. Those aren’t my words, they’re straight out of the Catechism.

 

[guanophore]

rturner76,

You are spot on. Your relationship with Christ is yours and you do not need anyone to tell you when, where or how you have that relationship. That is the essence of being a protestant. Scripture will lead you to truth

I don’t think this is correct, ForeverGrace. Scripture does lead to the Truth, but Paul wrote to Timothy that the Holy Scriptures instructed him unto salvation. Now he was a Jew, not a Protestant.

And a Catholic bible scholar named Jerome wrote “ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ”, and I assure you, he was no Protestant. I think you have the inspired nature of the Scritpures confused with your religious bias.

If you would like to read up on Martin Luther I can give you some great links. Luther was not without flaws and warts, just like all of us, but he knew sinful practices when he saw them.

Well, please send them by PM. WE don’t need to air any flaws and warts in public around here.

In a forum such as this, it’s easy to see how people respond out of emotion (not all of them). Sadly, Luther’s faults get blown up and his virtues minimized.

I wonder why that might be? Any chance it is the balance of his character? Jesus told us we would know them by their fruits…

There are many wonderful Catholic people here that I truly respect because above all, they love Jesus.

God Bless

It is His mercy that unites us one to another.

 

[StTommyMore]

Yes, I am. The Catechism says this, I didn’t make it up and it speaks for itself:

If you don’t like what it says, you’re really taking it up with the wrong person. Those aren’t my words, they’re straight out of the Catechism.

Try this on for size:

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

Lumen Gentium 14.
Put simply, those who willfully remain outside the Catholic Church endanger their salvation. The Catechism cites this document, meaning you are misinterpreting the Catechism

 

[Rence]

Try this on for size:

Lumen Gentium 14.
Put simply, those who willfully remain outside the Catholic Church endanger their salvation. The Catechism cites this document, meaning you are misinterpreting the Catechism

Try this one

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[StTommyMore]

Try this one

You put too much weight on “through no fault of their own”. This is actually a very stiff restriction.

 

[Rence]

You put too much weight on “through no fault of their own”. This is actually a very stiff restriction.

The CCC speaks for itself. I totally understand that you place a very stiff restriction on it, but the CCC doesn’t in fact.

 

[guanophore]

The CCC speaks for itself:

A non-Catholic Christian who knows the Gospel of Christ, and seeks God with a sencere heart, and who is moved by grace, and who tries in his/her actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – he/she may achieve eternal salvation as well. So right there in black and while in the Cathechisms proves that Catholics aren’t going to be the only ones in Heaven.

Did anyone here claim that was the case? If so, could you point out the post number?

Can you explain why you affiliate yourself as “Catholic”? Your posts reflect that you do not embrace Catholic faith.

 

[StTommyMore]

The CCC speaks for itself. I totally understand that you place a very stiff restriction on it, but the CCC doesn’t in fact.

Actually it does. It does not say that those outside the visible Church “will” be saved, but that they "may " be saved. The surest path to salvation is in the Holy Catholic Church, which is reflected in the Councils and the Catechism.