Starting to agree with Martin Luther

[Rence]

Actually it does. It does not say that those outside the visible Church “will” be saved, but that they "may " be saved. The surest path to salvation is in the Holy Catholic Church, which is reflected in the Councils and the Catechism.

Anyone “may” be saved. There is no guarantee anyone “will” be saved, whether they are Catholic or not. The point is, the Church recognizes that a non-Catholic “may” be saved, just like a Catholic “may” be saved, and doesn’t teach that non-Catholics can’t be saved just because they’re not Catholic.

 

[ForeverGrace]

“And a Catholic bible scholar named Jerome wrote “ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ”, and I assure you, he was no Protestant. I think you have the inspired nature of the Scritpures confused with your religious bias”

I have no religious bias. I’m not religious. Religious people killed Jesus, yes? Scripture is the only authority I answer to. I can’t possibly allow a Pope to determine for me what scripture means. Not even a priest.

I can still hear Father Stravinskas’ reply regarding the paying of alms to either avoid or shorten one’s time in purgatory. “Pay me now or pay me later”. Nope, can’t trust that. And then there was the infallible pope who had more than one mistress and quite a few children. Anything he said, whether ex-cathedra or not, simply can’t be taken seriously. How pious could a man who is living in open sexual sin be?

Having said that, I’m very aware that protestantism is equally loaded with people who are not exactly decent representatives of the faith.

I’m very aware of Jerome and his impact on the holy scriptures. In fact, I have studied many of the teachings of individual Popes. It seems they couldn’t agree on a good many things. That’s what Protestants do as well. I’m not at all sure that there is any real difference between Protestants and Catholics, at least in terms of having definitive, settled doctrine.

BTW, did you hear the news? Pope Benedicts XVI has decided that perhaps Martin Luther shouldn’t have been ex-communicated. Surely that’s a huge departure from what Catholics have taught for at least 500 years.

 

[StTommyMore]

Anyone “may” be saved. There is no guarantee anyone “will” be saved, whether they are Catholic or not. The point is, the Church recognizes that a non-Catholic “may” be saved, just like a Catholic “may” be saved, and doesn’t teach that non-Catholics can’t be saved just because they’re not Catholic.

Any non-Catholic who knowingly rejects the Church may be saved?

 

[Rence]

Any non-Catholic who knowingly rejects the Church may be saved?

That’s my point: a non-Catholic wouldn’t knowingly reject the Church. If they knowingly reject the Church that means they are lying to themselves. Just because someone points out Church teachings doesn’t mean that someone faithfully and truthfully following another religion is going to eat it up like a peanut butter and fluff sandwich. If they are faithfully and truthfully following their religion, they are not going to knowingly reject the Church because they will be emotionally, spiritually and intellectually absorbed in the religion they are following. Hearing about the Church is not the same as knowing the Church. If that were the case, there would only be the Catholic Church, and that’s not the case. We have many denomiations and many people born into them and finding God in them, even converting to them, and they are as faithful to their religion as we are to ours – some of them even moreso. These people aren’t knowingly rejecting the Church. They have found their place in another religion and are faithfully and truthfully following that religion.

 

[Rence]

BTW, did you hear the news? Pope Benedicts XVI has decided that perhaps Martin Luther shouldn’t have been ex-communicated. Surely that’s a huge departure from what Catholics have taught for at least 500 years.

I didn’t hear that. Can you point me to some links so I can read up on that?

 

[rturner76]

The way I read my Bible you are not saved because you are Catholic and being saved has nothing to do with any action you take on this Earth. Many of you scholors seem to forget WE ARE ALL SAVED BY GRACE::yyeess:

GRACE= UNMERITED FAVOR

You don’t even have to ask for it, you can’t do anything to get it. It is a gift. Please read this with me in the Book of Ephesians

Chapter 2 verse 4: But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-

Also verse 8:For by grace you have been saved through faith And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no man may boast

I don’t know how people get this confused and think Grace is something you must earn or that you even can earn/ If you could behave your way to salvation we would have no need for a savior am I right? I can’t be the only one that believes this.

This is the reason I feel you don’t need the Catholic church’s forgiveness in order to obtain Grace. Luther taught it was through faith. I even take it one stepp further and say it is by grace alone through love and Jesus sacrifice on the cross.

This is what my original statemt was eluding to.

I know I will be attackes but how can you refute this scripture? Am I reading it wrong? Does it not it id NOT your own doing? Not a result of works? GRACE GRACE GRACE

That is why I love Jesus so so so much. He didn’t have to do it but he did and we are aall free because of it. The Church didn’t get up on the cross Jesus did.

Putting on my helmet :knight1:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The way I read my Bible you are not saved because you are Catholic and being saved has nothing to do with any action you take on this Earth. Many of you scholors seem to forget WE ARE ALL SAVED BY GRACE::yyeess:

GRACE= UNMERITED FAVOR

You don’t even have to ask for it, you can’t do anything to get it. It is a gift. Please read this with me in the Book of Ephesians

Chapter 2 verse 4: But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-

Also verse 8:For by grace you have been saved through faith And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no man may boast

I don’t know how people get this confused and think Grace is something you must earn or that you even can earn/ If you could behave your way to salvation we would have no need for a savior am I right? I can’t be the only one that believes this.

This is the reason I feel you don’t need the Catholic church’s forgiveness in order to obtain Grace. Luther taught it was through faith. I even take it one stepp further and say it is by grace alone through love and Jesus sacrifice on the cross.

This is what my original statemt was eluding to.

I know I will be attackes but how can you refute this scripture? Am I reading it wrong? Does it not it id NOT your own doing? Not a result of works? GRACE GRACE GRACE

That is why I love Jesus so so so much. He didn’t have to do it but he did and we are aall free because of it. The Church didn’t get up on the cross Jesus did.

Putting on my helmet :knight1:

Um, you are aware that the Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by works, right?

 

[Hiskid1973]

That’s my point: a non-Catholic wouldn’t knowingly reject the Church. If they knowingly reject the Church that means they are lying to themselves. Just because someone points out Church teachings doesn’t mean that someone faithfully and truthfully following another religion is going to eat it up like a peanut butter and fluff sandwich. If they are faithfully and truthfully following their religion, they are not going to knowingly reject the Church because they will be emotionally, spiritually and intellectually absorbed in the religion they are following…

This thread gets confusing with the use of “religion”… Are non catholic christians part of a different religion or is islam a different religion…I’m of Peter, I’m of Appolos, I’m of Paul
aren’t they all followers of Christ who knows who are His…It’s the same Holy Spirit that seals all in Christ…

 

[Rence]

The way I read my Bible you are not saved because you are Catholic and being saved has nothing to do with any action you take on this Earth. Many of you scholors seem to forget WE ARE ALL SAVED BY GRACE::yyeess:

GRACE= UNMERITED FAVOR

You don’t even have to ask for it, you can’t do anything to get it. It is a gift. Please read this with me in the Book of Ephesians

Chapter 2 verse 4: But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-

Also verse 8: For by grace you have been saved through faith And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no man may boast

I don’t know how people get this confused and think Grace is something you must earn or that you even can earn/ If you could behave your way to salvation we would have no need for a savior am I right? I can’t be the only one that believes this.

I think that you’re leaving out a very important factor in the equation: The life decisions of the person. In other words, a person seeking God’s grace will do all they can to earn it naturally. If you love God, you will try to lead a life in conformity with Him. God, seeing your efforts to earn His Grace in the way you live, will besow it on you. If you lead a life of evil-doing, and don’t care about the consequences, it is highly unlikely that God will gift you with His Grace and save you.

This is the reason I feel you don’t need the Catholic church’s forgiveness in order to obtain Grace. Luther taught it was through faith. I even take it one stepp further and say it is by grace alone through love and Jesus sacrifice on the cross.

This is what my original statemt was eluding to.

I know I will be attackes but how can you refute this scripture? Am I reading it wrong? Does it not it id NOT your own doing? Not a result of works? GRACE GRACE GRACE

Well,I’m not going to attack you. But I do think you’re reading it wrong because I think you’re leaving out the part that no matter how good we are, we can never be good enough to deserve God’s Grace. That’s why he freely gives it to us. He knows we can never achieve perfection, especially on our own without His help.

 

[Rence]

This thread gets confusing with the use of “religion”… Are non catholic christians part of a different religion or is islam a different religion…I’m of Peter, I’m of Appolos, I’m of Paul
aren’t they all followers of Christ who knows who are His…It’s the same Holy Spirit that seals all in Christ…

Apparently there are a lot of people who think that unless one is Catholic, they can’t be saved, or will have a harder time being saved, no matter what. Non-Catholic Christians are not Catholic. All Christians are followers of Christ. The Church teaches that it has the fullness of Truth, while non-Catholic religions only have part of it. It’s because they have part of it that they can be saved, but it’s because they only have part of it that it’s harder for them to be saved.

In the very early history of the Church, there was only the Catholic Church, the Jews and the Muslims, and of course the last of the pagans. There were no other Christian denominations and the Church was on a continued mission to evangelize and convert pagans, Jews, and Muslims to Catholicism. It was announced that salvation could only be achieved if someone was Catholic. Fast forward centuries later, and the Catechism was formed and in it the acknowledgement that there were many denominations that worshipped Jesus but that were not Catholic. The Church acknowledges that these denominations, because they came from the Church originally, did not have the fullness of Truth, but part of it. But they also acknowledged that these non-Catholic Christians loved Jesus and were faithful to the Gospel as taught by their denomination and because of that, could be saved. So they teach taught that there is only salvation through the Church, they also teach that a non-Catholic can also be saved by virtue of the fact that they loved and followed Jesus too. This is also true of the Jews, who do not know Jesus, but love our Heavenly Father and worship him and are always trying to conform to His Will.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Apparently there are a lot of people who think that unless one is Catholic, they can’t be saved, or will have a harder time being saved, no matter what. Non-Catholic Christians are not Catholic. All Christians are followers of Christ. The Church teaches that it has the fullness of Truth, while non-Catholic religions only have part of it. It’s because they have part of it that they can be saved, but it’s because they only have part of it that it’s harder for them to be saved.

Thanks for your comments…I guess to “church” has varied definitions too…I see ""church ’
much beyond the Rome see and those who come under their earthly head…I always like the Orthodoxy’s response " They know where the church is but they don’t know where it isn’t…There are hot, lukewarm and cold among us all…

God bless you, beloved by our Lord…

 

[PRmerger]

This thread gets confusing with the use of “religion”… Are non catholic christians part of a different religion or is islam a different religion…I’m of Peter, I’m of Appolos, I’m of Paul
aren’t they all followers of Christ who knows who are His…It’s the same Holy Spirit that seals all in Christ…

If you cannot hear Those Whom He Sent, then you cannot hear Him. (see Luke 10:16).

As far as this “same Holy Spirit”, read below:

Most non-Catholic sects declare that the Holy Spirit is “teaching” them the truth. However, there can be only one truth. Since the advent of Sola Scriptura and individual interpretation of Scripture, how can the Holy Spirit be in each of the thousands of sects, teaching all of them opposing viewpoints? It is to be noted that all of the following denominations teach from the same Bible, so why the differences in teaching?

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?
2. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is unbiblical?
3. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh-Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?
4. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?
5. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, “once saved always saved”, and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?
6. How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?
7. How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD? -source

 

[PRmerger]

I have no religious bias. I’m not religious. Religious people killed Jesus, yes?

If by “religious” you mean “members of a religion”, then, yes religious people killed Jesus.

However, “religion” comes from the Latin word* religare, *which means “relationship”. Thus, if you are in a relationship with Christ, you are religious.

Scripture is the only authority I answer to. I can’t possibly allow a Pope to determine for me what scripture means. Not even a priest.

This goes the other way, also. And puts you in the unfortunate position of allowing any weird interpretation of Scripture to be a viable interpretation.

And you then can’t possibly tell another person that “x” is *not *what Scripture means.

Thus, if someone, ala Fred Phelps** teaches the odious doctrines (quoting Scripture to support him!) that God hates homosexuals, and laughs when they die, then you, sadly, cannot tell him he’s wrong, wrong, wrong.

**if you’re unfamiliar with Fred Phelps and his vulgar rhetoric, look him up. I won’t cite a link to his invectives as they are simply too vile.

 

[Hiskid1973]

We’re all responsible to choose to follow Him walk in His truths via the scriptures…Belonging to a correct physical church building is not what gets us to heaven…He knows who walks in His ways and those who don’t…Hot lukewarm and cold are among us all…Churches won’t be in heaven people will…Except a man be born anew…That’s not exclusively for the Rome see and those groups who submit to it’s earthly head…

 

[StTommyMore]

We’re all responsible…to choose to follow him walk in His truths via the scriptures…belonging to a correct physical church building is not what gets us to heaven…He know who walks in His ways and those who don’t…Hot lukewarm and cold are among us all…Churches won’t be in heaven people will…Except a man be born anew…That’s not exclusively for the Rome see and those who submit to it’s earthly head…

I would direct you to *Models of the Church * by Avery Dulles. Viewing the Church exclusively as a mystical communion of believers has some major issues with it.

 

[PRmerger]

Then why don’t you have him up on your crosses in your churches?

An empty cross without a corpus seems to show that you believe the cross saved you, not Christ.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Then why don’t you have him up on your crosses in your churches?

An empty cross without a corpus seems to show that you believe the cross saved you, not Christ.

Actually it show me the cross couldn’t hold Him…He arose…The cross was empty…The empty cross does’ not trivialize the suffering He endured…

 

[Hiskid1973]

I would direct you to *Models of the Church * by Avery Dulles. Viewing the Church exclusively as a mystical communion of believers has some major issues with it.

Never said it was just mystical…It had physical locations in Jerusalem, Laodicea and the utter most parts of the earth…Do you think your church location ias any more (name removed by moderator)ortant
than and underground church location in China ?

 

[PRmerger]

Actually it show me the cross couldn’t hold Him…He arose…The cross was empty…The empty cross does’ not trivialize the suffering He endured…

Fair enough.

You can see, though, how a non-Christian might see a cross and think, “They believe that this cross saved them.”

vs

the message that a non-Christian might get when he sees a crucifix, “They believe that Jesus’ death on the cross saved them.”

 

[PRmerger]

Belonging to a correct physical church building is not what gets us to heaven…

This is very Catholic of you to say, Hiskid!