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Hiskid1973
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I am catholic in the sense the NT believers were called at around the 1st century…Your either in Christ or your not…This is very Catholic of you to say, Hiskid!
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Utmost
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- The *church *is the body of believers in Jesus Christ (e.g. Eph 5:22-33). Or it may mean an individual church where an assemble of people meet together, (e.g. Gal 1:2).
- The *Church * [capitalized] as noted in these forums is the Catholic Church of which the Pope in Rome is the head.
Some would say that there is a difference between the ‘catholic church’ and the ‘Catholic Church.’ (that difference being the difference between the 1) and 2) above). I do not want to start an issue here, just a clarification that when you see the word church you need to understand how the word is being used.
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Hiskid1973
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I have been walking with Christ for almost 40 years and shared the gospel with hundreds over the years and never had one person. disassociate Christ and the empty cross…Whether He is on it or not the message is Jesus…He died arose and lives today…
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SteveVH
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Except that it is not the cross that saves us, but rather the one hanging on it. I would agree, however, that the cross probably conveys the message to most people.
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PRmerger
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Yes,–everyone wants to be called a Catholic, as Augustine said, “[T]he very name of Catholic . . . belongs to this Church alone . . . so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house” (Against the Letter of Mani Called `The Foundation’ 4:5 [397 A.D.]" (post original here.)
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Hiskid1973
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That’s pretty much a given when on of the main witnessing scriptures is John 3:16…
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Hiskid1973
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Yes it does … All who were in Christ…
Perhaps, PR, in his time, at his place, it was hard to distinguish between the two.
For example, could it be said that the doctrine of Purgatory was blurred by the practices of indulgences and private masses?
Jon
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Utmost
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Sorry for changing the subject some, but this was posted a few days ago in this thread it it really bothers me. Try to follow the order and logic that I present this:
Let’s say that through no fault of my own. I grew up attending a church that taught from the Bible and that it was the Word of God and that everything in it was true. I knew nothing about the teachings of the Church. I then (as CCC-847 states: "[sought] God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, [tried] in [my] actions to do his will as * it through the dictates of [my]conscience (strike “dictate of my conscience” and change to “God’s Holy Word.” Then according to CCC-847 I would “achieve eternal salvation.”
I then started to pursue the teaching of the Church and read the CCC and came upon CCC-846 and “the Church, …] is necessary for salvation.” Now I am no longer ignorant. I can no longer “achieve eternal salvation” from what I read in the Bible and the faith I have in Jesus and what he accomplished on the cross and in his resurrection.
It would have been better if I had never read the CCC (?!).*
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PRmerger
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No doubt.
As it was during the times of St. Francis and St. Teresa of Avila.
However, reform was done in one way which produced saints; the other way became the seed from which tens of thousands of denominations erupted–so much so that the chaos and confusion that ensued now results in millions of folks who don’t know whether baptism saves you or not. They don’t know whether He is present in the Eucharist or not. They don’t know whether divorce and re-marriage is allowed or not. They don’t know whether the pope is the vicar of Christ or the antichrist.
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PRmerger
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Not “would” achieve salvation. Your salvation is not guaranteed. Neither is mine.
The word in the catechism is “may”.
Ignorance is never better than living a life of grace, Utmost.
Saying “It would have been better if I had never read the CCC” is like saying, “If we give the primitive people fire they could burn themselves, so let’s not show them how to make a fire.”
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rturner76
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Many people are talking about the Church this or that Big C little c. On the cross off the cross belief, baptism intentions.
Once again I say it is GRACE that saves. You and I don’t deserve it, no action we take will make us deserve it but we receive it because of the sacrifice on the cross.
You don’t need the Catholic Church for it. You need only receive it
GRACE=unmerited favor
That is why Luther split. The Church puts itself between you and your God Given grace.
You DO NOT have to please the church or anybody in it. You just receive.
I know it’s hard to understand. We look for ways to show how we have done what we need to do through the church and now the church will bestow upon us a baptism, sacraments, confession, etc. The church if we do what we are told will make us acceptable in God’s sight.
You are missing the point Grace is unmerited, there is NOTHING you can do to deserve it. That is why it is called grace. Grace grace grace grace grace.
How many times do I have to say it before all you scholors realize that your quibbling about what you must do to obtain salvation is all done in vain. The price has been paid. It’s already done. Rejoyce, tell the good news the gospel= good news.
WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE. Catholics have the best libraries and the most knowledge about scripture, church history, the apostles, why are so many of you confused about the most basic fundamental truth about salvation stated in almost all the Epistles. GRACE my brothers and sisters, GRACE
Once again I say it is GRACE that saves. You and I don’t deserve it, no action we take will make us deserve it but we receive it because of the sacrifice on the cross.
You don’t need the Catholic Church for it. You need only receive it
GRACE=unmerited favor
That is why Luther split. The Church puts itself between you and your God Given grace.
You DO NOT have to please the church or anybody in it. You just receive.
I know it’s hard to understand. We look for ways to show how we have done what we need to do through the church and now the church will bestow upon us a baptism, sacraments, confession, etc. The church if we do what we are told will make us acceptable in God’s sight.
You are missing the point Grace is unmerited, there is NOTHING you can do to deserve it. That is why it is called grace. Grace grace grace grace grace.
How many times do I have to say it before all you scholors realize that your quibbling about what you must do to obtain salvation is all done in vain. The price has been paid. It’s already done. Rejoyce, tell the good news the gospel= good news.
WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE. Catholics have the best libraries and the most knowledge about scripture, church history, the apostles, why are so many of you confused about the most basic fundamental truth about salvation stated in almost all the Epistles. GRACE my brothers and sisters, GRACE
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PRmerger
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You have it right, rturner.
But you cannot ignore* all the other Scripture verse *that declare unto how we are saved.
This is what the Scriptures say we are saved by:
By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)
By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)
By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)
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StTommyMore
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What is Grace? God’s self-revelation to all of humanity. How does God reveal Himself? through the Church
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chuckfrmvalyfrg
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rturner76 ,
Do you agree that “Grace” , like any gift can be accepted or rejected , and if accepted can later be rejected .? As I’m sure you know , Catholics don’t believe in " once saved always saved " . Regarding the Sacraments , they were not created by the Catholic Church , but rather by God , including Confession ( or Reconciliation) . That is why the Catholic Church does not have the authority to change the Sacraments .
Re: your original post , if you are not in communion with the Catholic Churh in it’s beliefs regarding the Eucharistand and therefore it’s members, why should/'would you receive the Eucharist in a Catholic Church when You are Not in communion with us and our beliefs ?
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rturner76
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I have come to the Catholic Church seeking to be in full communion and was blatantly told “Sorry, we’re not taking new members until September” It really got to me that the administration of the Church would not accept someone who is seeking to come onto the Mother Church. I felt very hurt and rejected so I began to question what authority they have to not allow me to be a part of what Jesus established here on Earth or to regulate when it is appropriate to bring me into the fold. That is why I keep screaming I have been granted grace, God loves me too. Why won’t you welcome me as Jesus would? Why won’t you let me be a deciple? What do I have to prove to you? I ask the Church. God has given me grace, why can’t you?
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rturner76
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By the way, I do not believe Grace must be accepted in order to be given. It is a gift free and clear and you must do NOTHING to receive it.
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PRmerger
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Then every single human being is saved? All 6 billion folks walking this earth are going to heaven?
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rturner76
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YesThen every single human being is saved? All 6 billion folks walking this earth are going to heaven?
It does not mean everybodys reward is the same but…Yes to your question.
I know it is pretty much impossible for certain people to believe because they want their denomination to be the only ones that make it to heaven.
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rturner76
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But that’s a whole different Thread. I been neat up enough time for believing that one.
My brother did do his Master’s Thesis about universal salvation and it was accepted at St John’s University and the panel was made up of some high ranking Catholics including some monks of the Abby and a Priest. Some hated it but his arguments were too solid to deny the truth of them. That’s how he got me.
But like I say, that subject would derail the thread in no time
My brother did do his Master’s Thesis about universal salvation and it was accepted at St John’s University and the panel was made up of some high ranking Catholics including some monks of the Abby and a Priest. Some hated it but his arguments were too solid to deny the truth of them. That’s how he got me.
But like I say, that subject would derail the thread in no time
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