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PRmerger
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rturner76
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PRmerger:
No I’m not talking about a specific group. Many people feel like theirs is the only way.
In my opinion, one would be Christian if not for th obvious reasons like It’s Jesus work on the cross that paid the price for your sin. It would be that even in THIS world, if a person were to emulate the example of Jesus they would live a live of love, family, forgiveness, peace, sharing, caring, kindness etc. And if the world acted like Jesus there would be no war, hunger, sickness, or sorrow anywhere. No omurder theft, hate, violence or cruelty would exist either
No I’m not talking about a specific group. Many people feel like theirs is the only way.
In my opinion, one would be Christian if not for th obvious reasons like It’s Jesus work on the cross that paid the price for your sin. It would be that even in THIS world, if a person were to emulate the example of Jesus they would live a live of love, family, forgiveness, peace, sharing, caring, kindness etc. And if the world acted like Jesus there would be no war, hunger, sickness, or sorrow anywhere. No omurder theft, hate, violence or cruelty would exist either
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chuckfrmvalyfrg
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rturner76,
Welcome ! I am somewhat familiar with your predicament . Thank you for investigating and considering the Catholic Church . I love converts , my own father was one . My mother and I are " cradle Catholics " , but my father was not . When I was about 12 my father decided to convert and he had me help him with his RCIA homework , was that a real "hoot " !
Could you go back and read my post #152 in this thread ? Perhaps there may be some useful information . Where do you live that you can’t start the RCIA process , in some form , sooner ? I want it to work out for you .
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guanophore
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"guanophore:
James 1:27
27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
Then it could also accurately be said that we killed Jesus through our own sins, for which He bore the penalty in His own body on the cross.
It is also a bias that has serious flaws. For example, you will not find this notion anywhere within those scriptures to which you claim to “answer”.
Authority can only be weilded by a person, not to writings, however Holy.
And for the record, your statement here reflects yet another religious bias.
For this reason, the Church is much more than the fallible human beings on earth that are members of her. In spite of any errors that might be made by these individuals, the Church herself cannot make an error. Our separated brethren do not claim such a condition, since they suffer from a deficient understanding of the nature of Church.
Martin excommunicated himself. I can certainly agree it should not have happened, but it was his choice to make.
It is impossible to be a Christian, and not have religious bias. YOu may be unaware of your bias, and you may deny it, but it most certainly exists.
That is not a very “bible believing” position, is it?
James 1:27
27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
I guess you could say that, although it was against the law for the religious Jews who rejected Christ to effect the death penalty, so this was carried out by rather irreligious Roman soldiers.
Then it could also accurately be said that we killed Jesus through our own sins, for which He bore the penalty in His own body on the cross.
This is a good example of a “religious bias”.
It is also a bias that has serious flaws. For example, you will not find this notion anywhere within those scriptures to which you claim to “answer”.
Authority can only be weilded by a person, not to writings, however Holy.
The faith is to be handed down by those to whom it was given as custodians. The Apostolic Succession is the authorative means by which the meaning of the Scriptures is transmitted from one generation to the next.
Good for you! No one is suggesting that you should follow the wolves who have infiltrated the flock. If a Pope or a priest says something contrary to the Truth that God has revealed to the Church, then they are anathema. By the way, your statement above is another “religious bias”.
It seems that you don’t understand infallibility, Forever. It is not equivalent to impeccability. Peter made an infallible statement about the identity of Christ, then shortly afterward, was told by Christ he was “Satan” (adversary).
So, that means anything Peter said, since he was not perfect, can’t be taken seriously?
The gifts of God are not dependent upon personal piety. On the contrary, He gives some of the most powerful gifts to the impious. For example, Peter denied Him at His hour of suffering, yet when God restored him, the Spirit worked so powerfully through him that even his shadow would heal people.
And for the record, your statement here reflects yet another religious bias.
Would you not agree that the Holy Spirit works among these ecclesial communities to draw individuals to Himself?
You have certainly lcome to the right place to explore. The main difference is in the perception of the nature of the Church. The Apostles defined the Church as having four marks; One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. They also defined the Church as having Jesus as her Head, and the Holy Spirit as her Soul. As a result of her divine elements, she is infallible.
For this reason, the Church is much more than the fallible human beings on earth that are members of her. In spite of any errors that might be made by these individuals, the Church herself cannot make an error. Our separated brethren do not claim such a condition, since they suffer from a deficient understanding of the nature of Church.
Perhaps you can cite a source for this?
Martin excommunicated himself. I can certainly agree it should not have happened, but it was his choice to make.
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PRmerger
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Heh. Like Jesus, eh?
The Church, as the Body of Christ, when it proclaims, “Outside the Church there is no Salvation” is only repeating that which Christ proclaimed for Himself–there is only ONE way to eternal life.
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StTommyMore
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Here is my issue with universalism. This means that in Heaven, that the most wicked, vile, unrepentant sinners are in heaven. This thwarts Gid;s justice and makes Jesus into a liar. If all are in heaven, then what did Jesus speak of Hell?
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rturner76
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PR merger: I agree with you. There is only one way to salvation. God’s grace through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. I think we have a different opinion about what grace is. I believe it is unearned. From what you posted I assume you believe you must earn your grace. I do believe the way to salvation is through Jesus Christ just that it’s already done and grace has been established.
StTommyMore: I know what you mean. It is a very difficult concept to want to take on because of our judgement. It is based on a sort of equasion
Does God have the desire to save everybody’s soul? Yes
Does God have the ability to save every soul? Yes
Through Jesus sacrifice, every soul is saved.
My brother is going to epublish his Thesis soon, it would make for an interesting read anyway.
It is something that I believe however every person must believe what they feel in their own heart is right. So I’m not going to try to convince you I’m “correct” I’m just telling you why I think this way.
StTommyMore: I know what you mean. It is a very difficult concept to want to take on because of our judgement. It is based on a sort of equasion
Does God have the desire to save everybody’s soul? Yes
Does God have the ability to save every soul? Yes
Through Jesus sacrifice, every soul is saved.
My brother is going to epublish his Thesis soon, it would make for an interesting read anyway.
It is something that I believe however every person must believe what they feel in their own heart is right. So I’m not going to try to convince you I’m “correct” I’m just telling you why I think this way.
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StTommyMore
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Through the Sacrifice all are redeemed, but not all are justified. If this were true, then why is there such a strong emphasis on faith and evangelization in the Scriptures?
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Utmost
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But my ignorance is not ignorance of God and God’s Word, it is only ignorance of the Church teachings (there is a difference, I believe). Your example of fire assumes that I am completely ignorant of God’s Word (or fire, as the case may be).
I do not agree with your example of fire. I think a more valid comparison would be (and keeping the fire theme):
The primitive people know about fire. They know how to build a fire and using it for cooking, etc. Then someone coming along and saying that is not how to cook. The only valid way to cook is to have a stove. It is not a fire unless you have a stove.
That said, my concern has not be addressed. How was it that prior to reading and understanding CCC-847 I “may achieve eternal salvation”, but after reading the CCC, it is no longer “may” but I can not achieve salvation (if I understand CCC-846 & 847 correctly).
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PRmerger
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You must accept the grace, and it results in faith working through love.
This is very Catholic of you to say, rturner!
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PRmerger
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You are creating a false dichotomy, Utmost.
*You would not know what is God’s Word were it not for the Catholic Church *teaching you that Jesus said, “I am the way the truth and the life” and that James said, “that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only”.
If you know Scripture, you have the Catholic Church to thank for that.
Otherwise, you might go around quoting the Gospel of Thomas thinking it was *theopneustos! *
Not at all. Only that you were given the “fire” by the Catholic Church.
I do not agree with your example of fire. I think a more valid comparison would be (and keeping the fire theme):
In this example, how is it they know about fire? If this is to be an apt analogy, someone has to come and save them from freezing by showing them fire.
And, then, an outsider would say, “It’s better that they never knew fire, because now they are burning themselves!”
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PRmerger
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Sadly, you are not understanding correctly, Utmost.
No one knows if you can achieve or cannot achieve salvation.
The CC has never, not even once, pronounced that an individual is in hell.
God is not a statistician who gives us the demographics of hell.
I say to you, in answer to your question, as to whether you are saved, “Strive to enter.”
Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.
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djeter
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One of my favorite theologians and writers, David Bentley Hart, on the reformation and Luther, Calvin, et. al.
payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/03/10/the-reformation/
Hope you all enjoy,
dj
payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/03/10/the-reformation/
Hope you all enjoy,
dj
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rturner76
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I did. I wonder why there are still Lutheran churches and I don’t think I’ve seen any Calvanist churches.
One thing I read which I do still believe is Luther’s assertion that we are saved by Grace and not by works.
All though this debate I’m not sure it’s been clear to me…
Do Catholics believe this or not? Saved by grace? fatih? works? I don’t think I’ve seen a clear answer that all the Catholics that have responded agree on.
I’m confused about this. I tend to believe it’s by Grace. If I believe this and I go through Catholic Catechism or RCIA etc. Will I be proven wrong? Will I not be allowed to receive the Eucharist? That is what all my griping was about to begin with.
I want to be able someday and I wish it could be sooner to receive the most holy Eucharist.
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PRmerger
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This is what Catholics believe we are saved by, rturner:
By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)
By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)
By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)
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bluelake
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rturner76,
Receiving Holy Communion is a sacrament. A person must know what this is.
In most christian churches children or adults are confirmed , (teaching) on the holy Sacraments and what the church requires of their members.
You seem to be on your way . About RCIA, ask your pastor.
God bless you,
bluelake
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bluelake
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We cannot work for our salvation, Salvation is a gift. See Rom.5:1-5
We have been justified through faith.
bluelake
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StTommyMore
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Faith without works is dead
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guanophore
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I undertstand your point, but this language is very counterproductive in use with our separated brethren. Catholics and Protestants agree that there is no way we can possibly “earn God’s grace naturally”.
It makes more sense to present it in terms of conforming our conduct with that which befits repentance. When one is in Christ, then one will bear the fruit of being connected to the vine.
I think this is a critical difference. Scripture says Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
There is a world of difference between “working out” and “working on”. In the first case, we acknowledge that God has sealed us in His grace in baptism, and that our lives are an expression of allowing that grace to work itself through us.
Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
I agree with what I think your premise is, that as we cooperate with the grace that has saved us, then we will enter more grace. We can never “earn it”, though. It is a natural result of obedience and conformity with HIs will, but it is a gift.
Every man is given sufficient grace to be saved. Some choose not to accept the free gift.
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