State of the world and delaying pregnancy

[daisybee]

Sorry, Link0126–I hope I didn’t offend you with the rhetorical question; apologies if I did. Actually, I don’t have any children.

But if I understand correctly, being open to having children in a Catholic marriage is one of four “essential properties” of a valid Catholic marriage (the others being monogamy, fidelity, and permanence). I guess we Catholics have been influenced by others in terms of thinking that we can enter into marriage and opt not to have children, but the Catholic view or marriage is quite different.

Theology of the Body for Beginners by Christopher West offers a very good overview of some of these teachings.

 

[Usige]

But we can’t turn the tide by sheer numbers. Look at how just a few people can now decide our future. What happened yesterday, when you put all the pieces together, was corruption on the scale of Orwell’s 1984. The trend is that we will be soon living in a very evil dictatorship. Sure, we can bring kids into that but to think we will turn the tide by having more kids, even if they do remain for the most part uncorrupted by the culture (no guarantee) it can not be changed by numbers, the very few rule the majority and that’s always the way it’s been.

You are right it’s not purely about numbers. Its about conversion through actions. By raising Catholics who are unabashedly orthodox and who put their faith in action we can strive to spread the gospel through our actions. The more Catholics who truly represent their faith the more likely they are to get a conversion of the hardened hearts of others. If not for meeting Catholics who showed my the redeeming love of Christ I would never have come home to the Church.

but they had kids b/c they didn’t have artificial contraception (not an option we would use anyway) and b/c they didn’t know about NFP. So we really don’t know what their intent was.

That is not entirely true. Artificial birth control was known through out the ancient world, it’s not like it was just discovered in the 1930’s. The same can be said about NFP and it’s basis in mammal fertility. I can almost guarantee that humans that dealt with animal husbandry understood fertility at least at a basic level. Yes, we might understand the mechanisms of reproduction more scientifically, but that doesn’t mean that humans haven’t understood the principles for thousands of years. Just think of the story of Onan. He spilled his seed to avoid getting Tamar pregnant. That story is at least 2,600 years old so obviously contraception is not a modern concept.

… Actually, my wife’s friend told us in a moment of honesty “misery loves company”

That’s just sad. My fondest memories in life all involve my children. The feeling of returning home after 12 hours of misery can be turned around by one of my children meeting me at the garage door with a huge hug and a simple phase like “Daddy, I missed you.” The closest I will ever come in this life to the beatific vision is to have small arms wrapped around me whispering “I love you, Daddy.” How anyone can see children as a misery completely baffles me.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

But yes, obviously something is wrong with us if we don’t want to have kids, or have doubts about it… Hilarious! We must have really had some screwed up childhoods or something… Why does everyone with kids act like that… It must be so great having children… they want everyone to have them. Actually, my wife’s friend told us in a moment of honesty “misery loves company”

No need to be nasty. You asked a question and here are the answers. I also wondered if there are other reasons for your fear. As for your wife’s friend, perhaps keeping more positive company would have a good influence on you. Just sayin’.

 

[Non_sum_dignus]

I am married. My wife and I want to have kids, but now we are having our doubts based on this despair we now feel about our country. The fix is in, we are going down the drain. We always planned to adopt anyway as well and help an orphaned child. Maybe we will just do that.

Catholics were having children during active, bloody persecution in the Roman Empire. They were having children when Muslims began militaristic expansion and persecution at the beginning of the Crusades. They’ve had children through wars, famine, and plague.

Truthfully, there has been no point at which human society has been worthy of the beautiful, innocent lives God sends to his people. But the Body of Christ needs members, and the Holy Spirit is there to guide us home. America is not the republic it once was, and it will likely never be as free as when James, Thomas, and George got the ball rolling. But earthly governments are destined to corrupt and change over time. Jesus only promised the Holy Spirit to the Church, not to our Constitution. Keep your faith in Jesus, teach your children that Jesus is the one true thing to be found in the world, and try not to be afraid.

 

[Link0126]

That’s just sad. My fondest memories in life all involve my children. The feeling of returning home after 12 hours of misery can be turned around by one of my children meeting me at the garage door with a huge hug and a simple phase like “Daddy, I missed you.” The closest I will ever come in this life to the beatific vision is to have small arms wrapped around me whispering “I love you, Daddy.” How anyone can see children as a misery completely baffles me.

But put it in perspective. You were at work for 12 hours. The person I’m talking about was a stay-at-home mom. A completely different situation.

 

[aicirt]

but they had kids b/c they didn’t have artificial contraception (not an option we would use anyway) and b/c they didn’t know about NFP. So we really don’t know what their intent was.

People have used prophylactics since ancient times. Casings from sheep were one type. Also knew what herb and plants to bring on a miscarriage. They knew when their animals were fertile and could deduce same for women.

 

[Link0126]

People have used prophylactics since ancient times. Casings from sheep were one type. Also knew what herb and plants to bring on a miscarriage. They knew when their animals were fertile and could deduce same for women.

yeah, i know but if they were slaves they probably didn’t have access to that stuff and if they were hebrew slaves which is what we were talking about, they may have been morally opposed to contraception.

 

[daisybee]

But put it in perspective. You were at work for 12 hours. The person I’m talking about was a stay-at-home mom. A completely different situation.

I think making a transition to be a stay-at-home mom is probably a very, very difficult one, especially for women who have been working for a while. I know it definitely will be for me if I have the opportunity in the future. Some of my friends are planning to stay at home somewhat temporarily until the children are school-age, but they still find it hard.

My friend went to a confession recently and shared with us that she spoke to her confessor about these kinds of concerns. (She is the mother of several young children.) Her confessor basically affirmed that her commitment to her children does involve a great deal of sacrifice, but her reminded that the nature of true love is sacrificial. So Link0126, I think you do have a point that raising children is not all roses; it’s a lot of hard work that can go unnoticed and unappreciated. (I suppose that’s where an understanding, supportive husband can help, and maybe extended family .) The “misery” perspective of your friend seems a bit harsh though. Hopefully there’s joy in making the sacrifice too…

 

[Usige]

But put it in perspective. You were at work for 12 hours. The person I’m talking about was a stay-at-home mom. A completely different situation.

Okay, let me put it into perspective. My wife stays home with all five of our children (2 teenagers and 3 from newborn to 4 years old). The two oldest have been home schooled their whole lives and have things that make life interesting. Among other things our oldest has Tourette Syndrome and our second oldest has Aspergers Syndrome. Both had severe language delays and learning disabilities. We were told by psychologist and developmental specialists that they would never learn to read, make friends, etc. It was partially why I got sterilized at 25, so that I wouldn’t bring another child that had those problems. You know what? Eight years later I listened to God and he brought me to the Church. As part of that I gave up my selfishness and had a reversal. Since then God has blessed us with 3 more beautiful children. At first we worried when we would get the news that one of our youngest would have some type of disability, but ultimately we trust God will give us the graces to accept any challenge he gives us. Everyone of them are a blessing and not a burden.

I asked my wife what kind of burden she has lived with for 18 years as a stay at home mom. Her answer is that God blessed us beyond anything we deserved. Being with our children is occasionally a challenge, but it has never been a burden. The burden to me is being away from a family I adore.

Please don’t paint working as some type of escape from having to be with my children. Yes being a stay at home mom is difficult, but it’s also difficult knowing that sometimes I might not see my children for 2 or 3 days. It tears my heart out when my 4 year old cries when I leave in the morning. If I could support my family while staying home I would do so gladly. Again I feel sorry and saddened for anyone that see’s raising their children as a burden.