Statement for WDTPRS from the Spokesperson for H.E. Card. Schönborn [Fr. Z]

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I received this statement from Erich Leitenberger, the spokesman for His Eminence Christoph Card. Schonborn, Archbishop of Vienna.

This regards the entry here, where a video of the Mass in question is posted. Discussion is there.

Dear Father Zuhlsdorf, regarding Your blog on the celebration of His Eminence in Wolfsthal I would like to beg you to publish my communiqué of yesterday for the orientation of your public. Kind regardsErich LeitenbergerSpokesperson for H.E. Card. Schönborn

The statement:Some people have taken serious offense in the Holy Mass for young people which was celebrated by the Viennese Cardinal Christoph Schonborn on the 16th of November in Wolfsthal, a village close to the Austrian-Slovakian border.In contrast to the presumption, due to the in many ways amateurish und unrealistic recorded broadcasting by Gloria TV, it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated. The Eucharistic bread was unleavened and its shape strictly followed the shape which has been used in the Middle East since the 1st century. The “flat cake” is similar to that form used in Mossul in these days – this is the metropolis located at river Tigris where Christians still testify the truth of Jesus with their own blood. Werner Pirkner, the spiritual councillor for the [h]oly Mass in Wolfsthal, and Stephan Bazalka, coordinator of the Catholic Youth, paid highest attention to the fact that when breaking the bread no tiny little piece of bread ever touched the floor. Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness. Let us pray all together for the Holy Church!

Full entry…
 
Because of the previous thread on the Mass in Vienna, the CAF mod/admin staff has decided to post this news item here as a clarification from Cardinal Schonborn’s office of what happened. If you choose to discuss this turn of events, keep the conversation civil toward and respectful of the Cardinal. Thanks.
 
paid highest attention to the fact that when breaking the bread no tiny little piece of bread ever touched the floor.
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I am reminded of another Father Z blog about this same subject, which is here. To quote:
  1. In approaching therefore, come not with thy wrists extended, or thy fingers spread; but make thy left hand a throne for the right, as for that which is to receive a King. And having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ, saying over it, Amen. So then after having carefully hallowed thine eyes by the touch of the Holy Body, [they touched it to their eyes] partake of it; giving heed lest thou lose any portion thereof; for whatever thou losest, is evidently a loss to thee as it were from one of thine own members. For tell me, if any one gave thee grains of gold, wouldest thou not hold them with all carefulness, being on thy guard against losing any of them, and suffering loss? Wilt thou not then **much more carefully **keep watch, that not a crumb fall from thee of what is more precious than gold and precious stones? [For good reason Holy Church grew in her understanding of the Sacrament and moved away from this practice in both East and West.]
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I mean no disrespect to the Cardinal.
 
Fr. Trigilio of EWTN posted a one word comment on Fr. Z’s blog…“Sad”. Sad, indeed. I was appalled to see the Eucharist not being placed immediately in the communicant’s mouth. The cardinal and the priests may very well have exercised great caution on the altar but the camera clearly showed some of the kids breaking pieces off and consuming them. What was going on in the liturgical planners’ minds?

Sad too to see the “choir” rocking and shaking for all the world like it was a rock concert instead of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. What was with the lasers and strobes? Or the priest clapping his hands and swaying back and forth?

I honestly believe the Cardinal was blind-sided. By the end of Mass he is looking dazed. I shall follow the spokesperson’s advice and will pray for Holy Mother Church.
 
Like Father Z says. Where is there balloons in the rubrics?. Also the Orthodox who are the dominant denomination in the Middle East do not use bread the size of a plate, leavened or unleavened. Don’t know what history book he got that from. In my view it was just a teen Mass with all the bells, balloons, and whistles. I will never attend one. And I also noticed everyone receiving communion in the hand. Not on the tongue like the Pope hopes for.
 
Catholic_Opinion said:
I received this statement from Erich Leitenberger, the spokesman for His Eminence Christoph Card. Schonborn, Archbishop of Vienna.

This regards the entry here, where a video of the Mass in question is posted. Discussion is there.

Dear Father Zuhlsdorf, regarding Your blog on the celebration of His Eminence in Wolfsthal I would like to beg you to publish my communiqué of yesterday for the orientation of your public. Kind regardsErich LeitenbergerSpokesperson for H.E. Card. Schönborn

Only if they repent!.

The statement:Some people have taken serious offense in the Holy Mass for young people which was celebrated by the Viennese Cardinal Christoph Schonborn on the 16th of November in Wolfsthal, a village close to the Austrian-Slovakian border.In contrast to the presumption, due to the in many ways amateurish und unrealistic recorded broadcasting by Gloria TV, it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated. The Eucharistic bread was unleavened and its shape strictly followed the shape which has been used in the Middle East since the 1st century. The “flat cake” is similar to that form used in Mossul in these days – this is the metropolis located at river Tigris where Christians still testify the truth of Jesus with their own blood. Werner Pirkner, the spiritual councillor for the [h]oly Mass in Wolfsthal, and Stephan Bazalka, coordinator of the Catholic Youth, paid highest attention to the fact that when breaking the bread no tiny little piece of bread ever touched the floor. Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness. Let us pray all together for the Holy Church!

Full entry…
Click to expand...
 
Quote “Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness. Let us pray all together for the Holy Church!”.

Only if they repent and ask for forgiveness!. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should be reverent and not a party time with balloons and clapping.
 
bkovacs said:
Like Father Z says. Where is there balloons in the rubrics?. Also the Orthodox who are the dominant denomination in the Middle East do not use bread the size of a plate, leavened or unleavened. Don’t know what history book he got that from. In my view it was just a teen Mass with all the bells, balloons, and whistles. I will never attend one. And I also noticed everyone receiving communion in the hand. Not on the tongue like the Pope hopes for.
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Actually the Orthodox do use leavened bread that is the size of a plate, you just do not see it as it is cut up during the Liturgy of Preparation which is the first part of the Divine Liturgy but you do not see it as it takes place behind the iconostasis at the altar of the offering.
 
bkovacs said:
Like Father Z says. Where is there balloons in the rubrics?. Also the Orthodox who are the dominant denomination in the Middle East do not use bread the size of a plate, leavened or unleavened. Don’t know what history book he got that from. In my view it was just a teen Mass with all the bells, balloons, and whistles. I will never attend one. And I also noticed everyone receiving communion in the hand. Not on the tongue like the Pope hopes for.
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I have to agree. While it does confirm the licitiness of the consecration, why did they use a Mossul custom when it is a Mass in Vienna? It seemed the response sidestepped the issue. No mention made regarding the balloons (no place in the rubrics), the banal and profane music, flashing strobe lights, ceramic chalice, tie dye vestments, teleprompter and the general lack of reverence displayed (performance of the band and towards the Eucharist).
 
The servers are not vested. Balloons during Mass? Rock concert lighting and atmosphere that has been specifically condemned by the Holy Father. If I recall correctly( I don’t wish to ever see the video again) wooden vessels were used, in place of the rubrically required ‘worthy material’ which is commonly used to mean gold, brass, etc. There are many things here that are not simply a different style but in clear violation of HMC’s idea of what Mass should be.
 
Seeing this proves to me that the Tridentine Mass is the only true Mass of the Roman Rite. There can never be two forms of the same rite. This is proof of it.
 
bkovacs said:
Seeing this proves to me that the Tridentine Mass is the only true Mass of the Roman Rite. There can never be two forms of the same rite. This is proof of it.
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The rubrics say one thing. People do the other.

It’s more so appalling that a CARDINAL presided over this Mass. He should have walked away, refusing his priests to be part of this travesty.

The Mass has been written, how it must be done. What is so hard about following that?
 
'Tis the last rose of summer! At least His Eminence realises that such a “Mass” is simply not done, either from the theological or liturgical angle. The statement does seem to shift the blame, use several illogical excuses and tries to smother criticism by referring to the authority of Z.E. Within the “modern church” at last, there now seems to be at least the understanding that what they did is wrong. Alas we are directing our arrows of anger at the wrong person (i.e. Z.E. Kardinal Schönborn) but then again: he should have known better. Now this “Mass” has been digitalised and spread all over the internet. It shall never go away again and provides powerful gunpowder for the sedevacantists. During Roman times, the expression vineta sua caedere was in use: chopping down one’s own vineyards.

I do agree with the above comments: Z.E. indeed looked rather dazed and very uncomfortable during the “Mass”. I do think that he was not fully informed of what was to come. But it surely is true that Z.E. should have refused to participate in such a “Mass”, now he added major credibility to such “events”. Also the consecratio was a terrible, terrible ordeal like already said above.
 
Archangelum said:
'Tis the last rose of summer! At least His Eminence realises that such a “Mass” is simply not done, either from the theological or liturgical angle. The statement does seem to shift the blame, use several illogical excuses and tries to smother criticism by referring to the authority of Z.E. Within the “modern church” at last, there now seems to be at least the understanding that what they did is wrong. Alas we are directing our arrows of anger at the wrong person (i.e. Z.E. Kardinal Schönborn) but then again: he should have known better. Now this “Mass” has been digitalised and spread all over the internet. It shall never go away again and provides powerful gunpowder for the sedevacantists. During Roman times, the expression vineta sua caedere was in use: chopping down one’s own vineyards.

I do agree with the above comments: Z.E. indeed looked rather dazed and very uncomfortable during the “Mass”. I do think that he was not fully informed of what was to come. But it surely is true that Z.E. should have refused to participate in such a “Mass”, now he added major credibility to such “events”. Also the consecratio was a terrible, terrible ordeal like already said above.
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This has happened before with him.

kreuz.net/article.2017.html

And to think the land of Mozart and all that is classical. Vienna.

stephanscom.at/news/0/articles/2008/11/18/a15633/
 
It is possible to have a very reverent OF with “smells and bells”. I know. My parish does it. It is also possible to have an OF in Latin. St. Patrick’s in New Orleans follows its EF on Sunday with an OF in Latin immediately after. It can be done.

It should also be remembered that Liturgical Prayer I of the OF is the Roman Canon and when said in Latin is very close to what we altar boys heard before 1965. But I don’t want to hijack the thread.

The really sad thing was watching the balloons ascend into the Baroque dome above the altar and realizing that that dome once echoed chant and Mozart.
 
brotherhrolf said:
I honestly believe the Cardinal was blind-sided. By the end of Mass he is looking dazed. I shall follow the spokesperson’s advice and will pray for Holy Mother Church.
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I wish this were the case, but it seems that the Cardinal has presided over similar liturgies in the past. He has specifically endorsed the activities of the “youth mission” which organized this liturgy, calling on them to be “faithful to this experiment”.

Clearly, the Cardinal is devoted to this sort of liturgy. This liturgy is fully in line with the post-conciliar spirit, and is undoubtedly meant to serve as a model for others to follow. This is the state of the Church today. This is the lex orandi of the modern faith. It’s a perfectly legitimate and acceptable liturgy within the bounds of what is called the ‘Catholic’ faith.

I’m prepared to accept that the good Cardinal and I are simply members of two entirely different religions; his lex orandi is different than mine.
 
ByzCath said:
Actually the Orthodox do use leavened bread that is the size of a plate, you just do not see it as it is cut up during the Liturgy of Preparation which is the first part of the Divine Liturgy but you do not see it as it takes place behind the iconostasis at the altar of the offering.
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I think you’d agree that the manner in which the Eucharist was served and cut is not the same as Byzantine tradition. At least in the Byzantine tradition it’s served with a Golden spoon, cut into bite size pieces (not munched on), soaked in the Precious blood and dropped into the mouth.
 
Dauphin said:
I’m prepared to accept that the good Cardinal and I are simply members of two entirely different religions; his lex orandi is different than mine.
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The Byzantine-Catholics have a different Lex Orandi, yet their Lex Credendi doesn’t constitute a new religion.

I see it more in terms of a weaker lex orandi, which often (not always) produces a weak or not as full, lex credendi. When I say a weaker lex orandi, i’m not talking about the NO, but rather weak liturgy in general (no matter what the form/rite). Judging by the way they munch on our Lord, i’d say it is quite a weak law of prayer, producing a weak law of faith which is not reflecting the reality that every particle of the Host is absolutely precious.
 
Freshman88 said:
I think you’d agree that the manner in which the Eucharist was served and cut is not the same as Byzantine tradition. At least in the Byzantine tradition it’s served with a Golden spoon, cut into bite size pieces (not munched on), soaked in the Precious blood and dropped into the mouth.
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That would be with leavened bread, which this was not.

And the tradition varies. The Melkite Greek Catholic Church does not use the golden spoon but does intinction by hand.

I do not understand the “munched on” comment. After all our Lord did tell us to Eat. When I eat I chew.
 
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