Statement for WDTPRS from the Spokesperson for H.E. Card. Schönborn [Fr. Z]

[brotherhrolf]

I do not understand the “munched on” comment. After all our Lord did tell us to Eat. When I eat I chew.

Br. David: So much has changed since I was prepared to make my First Communion in 1958. We were told that the host could get caught in the roof of our mouth and that we were only to use saliva and our tongue to loosen it. Sister made absolutely certain that we were not to use our profane fingers. Chewing? Not even on the radar screen.

I have never received Communion in the hand. I understand that is my personal choice but such training and experience over all these long years is hard to change. I understand what Our Lord said but the sight of that teenager tearing apart the Eucharist (crumbs flying everywhere) sent shivers up and down my spine. Given my druthers, I’d prefer to kneel as well.

The video was extremely jarring to me. I have followed up on some of the comments others have made about this kind of liturgy and the Cardinal. How incredibly sad.

 

[Timothysis]

Seeing this proves to me that the Tridentine Mass is the only true Mass of the Roman Rite. There can never be two forms of the same rite. This is proof of it.

Alas, you set yourself above the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI who said the complete opposite. Is this an example of being a “good” Catholic?

 

[Dempsey1919]

I found the entire Mass to be very depressing! I will pray for the Church. The Cardinal should know better than this.

 

[Freshman88]

That would be with leavened bread, which this was not.

yup.

And the tradition varies. The Melkite Greek Catholic Church does not use the golden spoon but does intinction by hand.

That’s nice. But what my point is, the Byzantines are reverent whereas this is hardly reverent.

I do not understand the “munched on” comment. After all our Lord did tell us to Eat. When I eat I chew.

Look at the video again. The Eucharist is so big that they have to hold the Eucharist in their hand and take small bites of it. The chance for crumbs is inevitable. This is simply disgusting.

Imagine, brushing the crumbs away as if His flesh were some kind of common cracker. Plain and simple sacrelig.

 

[VivaPadrePio]

What I would ask the Cardinal is: why.

As in: why, why, and why.

Is there something so fundamentally wrong in the commonly used host, that one must ask the people in Mossul what they use and adopt their ways.

Is a mass without laser beams something unfit for purpose, or less apt to reenact the sacrifice of Christ in a respectful and worthy way.

Are young people so dumb, that they will need balloons and other more or less childish exercises (outside of the liturgy, let us assume) to participate at Mass.

Is the mass made first of all for Christ, or is it made to please people’s tastes.

Is there something basically unworthy of Christ in simply, and devotedly, saying the black and doing the red.

This Cardinal is also obviously not new to this kind of exercise. I hope (and believe) that he will be duly warned and forced, volens nolens, to put an end to such extravagant initiatives.

Anyway, it is good that the video landed on the internet. Oportet ut scandala eveniant, as they say. Let the video stay there to the eternal shame of those who have to answer for it, and as a warning to all others.

By the next conclave, this video will speak volumes about any possible or thinkable “liberal” candidature. God forbids, of course.

 

[Hesychios]

Very nice Mass!

 

[Freshman88]

Very nice Mass!

What do you think of the kids, holding a large piece of Eucharist, taking one bite at a time as they hold it in their hand? What are we to make of all those particles falling on the floor?

Just be thankful that that kind of nonesense isn’t to be found in the Byzantine rite. I mean, would you tolerate a change of the Eastern rite, where they release balloons during Divine Liturgy, and then change the manner of the Eucharist, so that it is inevitable that particles fall on the floor?

 

[Walking_Home]

Very nice Mass!

---

Either you jest or the Orthodox have contracted the sickness currently infecting the Catholic Church.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Look at the video again. The Eucharist is so big that they have to hold the Eucharist in their hand and take small bites of it. The chance for crumbs is inevitable. This is simply disgusting.

What do you think of the kids, holding a large piece of Eucharist, taking one bite at a time as they hold it in their hand? What are we to make of all those particles falling on the floor?

I did watch the video again and again I failed to see these crumbs that you are so upset over. I saw nothing fall to the floor.

You have no way to know if this happened or to know if these people took care for it not to happen.

Seems you just wish to be upset over this because it does not meet your definition of what you think a Mass should be.

 

[Freshman88]

I did watch the video again and again I failed to see these crumbs that you are so upset over. I saw nothing fall to the floor.

You have no way to know if this happened or to know if these people took care for it not to happen.

Seems you just wish to be upset over this because it does not meet your definition of what you think a Mass should be.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Look closely. The Eucharist is so big that it cannot be received in one bite. This means that the recipent has to take one bite at a time, breaking off a piece of the eucharist with their teeth or hand, this breaking makes the risk of crumbs very real. This is why humans have created plates, so when eating something the debris of our food just doesn’t hit the table or floor, but the plate.

Here’s a homework activity. Take some bread, and eat over a plate, see if any crumbs break off. With so many people receiving, it’s inevitable that at least some crumbs break off.

What are you looking for exactly? are you trying to pin-point crumbs falling down? The method alone, makes crumbs inevitable we don’t need to see the specific crumbs.

There is a reason we have the Eucharist as one-bite-size, so we aren’t breaking the Eucharist over our coats, with our teeth, as we take bite after bite.

The Eucharist can only be one bite-sized. Unless we offered some kind of plate, and then received all the plates, and took care of the crumbs accordingly.

---

What would you think if the Divine liturgy was reformed today, which released the rubrics and allowed for balloons to be released. Would you like to hear modern music instead of Byzantine chant? What would you think if father had the freedom to change the Eucharist, and next Sunday so you were no longer receiving unleavend bread soaked with wine, but just a piece of bread instead? What if the Iconostasis was brought down, simply because it separates the laity from the altar?

Put yourself through that, just imagine a divine liturgy like that, and you’ll understand why so many Roman rite Catholics are upset. All we are asking, is that we stay true to the spirit and tradition of our rite - I thought a Byzantine would understand the importance of staying true to tradition and rite, but I guess i’m mistaken.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Nice still shot from the video but I fail to see any crumbs in it.

I eat pita bread all the time and have no issues with crumbs.

 

[Freshman88]

Nice still shot from the video but I fail to see any crumbs in it.

I eat pita bread all the time and have no issues with crumbs.

The fact remains that there is a good chance for crumbs.

Just answer this one question … is there a chance for crumbs with this method? Is there a chance for crumbs when you can take the Eucharist whole (one bite), in your mouth?

And you never replied to the second half of my post. Balloons flying in the air is neither of the Roman Rite or Byzantine Rite. Would you be ok if this occurred in your liturgy?

 

[DonaNobis_Pacem]

I attend Mass in the Ordinary Form. I watched the video, and my only reaction was…

“”

The concept was foreign, even to me, and I’ve grown up on the Ordinary Form my whole life.

 

[Archangelum]

Very nice Mass!

What is nice about it? And what is less nice about the OR and the ER? I mean, what we saw here was just profanity at it’s worst. Throughout the centuries countless generations grew up with Mass but they never felt the need to alter or corrupt it so that it would become popular, silly or “cool” just for the sake of it being “cool”.

So why are people, and a Cardinal of all people, doing it now, in 2008? Has mankind become so dull and thick that even young adults need balloons in church?

 

[barb_finnegan]

Br. David: So much has changed since I was prepared to make my First Communion in 1958. We were told that the host could get caught in the roof of our mouth and that we were only to use saliva and our tongue to loosen it. Sister made absolutely certain that we were not to use our profane fingers. Chewing? Not even on the radar screen.

I have never received Communion in the hand. I understand that is my personal choice but such training and experience over all these long years is hard to change. I understand what Our Lord said but the sight of that teenager tearing apart the Eucharist (crumbs flying everywhere) sent shivers up and down my spine. Given my druthers, I’d prefer to kneel as well.

The video was extremely jarring to me. I have followed up on some of the comments others have made about this kind of liturgy and the Cardinal. How incredibly sad.

BrotherRolf-your comment made me think of my own First Communion in 1962. I remember one girl took the [unconsecrated] host out of her mouth during rehearsal-and she caught ‘you-know-what’ from the Sister who taught the class! But seriously-if the Host gets stuck on the roof of my mouth, I use my tongue-NEVER my fingers!

I have always received on the tongue; the only times I had to receive in the hand was during retreats. That’s why I go only to the Latin Mass now.

I didn’t see the video of the Mass in Austria, but only got the video…the music(?) was horrendous!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Now your just burying your head in the sand. The fact remains that there is a good chance for crumbs. That this doesn’t bug you, is quite revealing.

It is quite revealing about you. You have no right to judge anything about me.

A video seldom shows everything, it just can’t do that. This video does not show any crumbs nor do we know if he type of bread used will create many crumbs or not.

Also we do not see if they took any precautions against crumbs falling on the floor.

Unlike you, I fall on the side of assuming that they did when they do not show it rather than automatically assuming the worst.

Just answer this one question … is there a chance for crumbs with this method? Is there a chance for crumbs when you can take the Eucharist whole (one bite), in your mouth?

There may be, but that does not mean that 1) there were any crumbs that fell on the floor or 2) that they did not take this into account and did something about it.

How about you answer this. Just because something is not shown in a video does that mean that it did not or could not have happened?

And you never replied to the second half of my post. Balloons flying in the air is neither of the Roman Rite or Byzantine Rite. Would you be ok if this occurred in your liturgy?

I did not reply because it has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

 

[Freshman88]

It is quite revealing about you. You have no right to judge anything about me.

A video seldom shows everything, it just can’t do that. This video does not show any crumbs nor do we know if he type of bread used will create many crumbs or not.

Also we do not see if they took any precautions against crumbs falling on the floor.

Unlike you, I fall on the side of assuming that they did when they do not show it rather than automatically assuming the worst.

There may be, but that does not mean that 1) there were any crumbs that fell on the floor or 2) that they did not take this into account and did something about it.

How about you answer this. Just because something is not shown in a video does that mean that it did not or could not have happened?

Well were just going to have to disagree. I’m only motivated by a desire to ensure the Eucharist is not profaned. It is inevitable with the method they have chosen, that there will be crumbs.

Despite the method, you seem to show no concern for the Eucharist, but simply hope for the best. That’s blindly optimistic, given the fact that when bread breaks, it has a chance to produce crumbs, and often will. I am not safe with assuming anything when it comes to Flesh and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ - I only observe that this method is borderline sacrilegious because it almost guarantees the chance of crumbs, especially given the fact that so many people are receiving. What if the room is dry, and the bread becomes dry? There is too much risk for profanation, and the method itself should be forbiddened. This is why Holy Mother Church, in all her rites, has the practice of making the Eucharist in bite-sized form.

I did not reply because it has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

But it was still question addressed to you.

Anyway, this is addressed to all Easterners who are supportive of this mass.
I think it’s quite bold for Easterners who have the privilege of having their rite safeguarded by strong rubrics and strong desire to keep their tradition authentic, to come in here and show any kind of support for this mass. It’s dishonest at best, to sit in the comfort of the Divine Liturgy, with all it’s reverence, and to scoff at traditionalists who are trying to remain true to our own liturgical tradition.

 

[AlanF]

It is quite revealing about you. You have no right to judge anything about me.

A video seldom shows everything, it just can’t do that. This video does not show any crumbs nor do we know if he type of bread used will create many crumbs or not.

Also we do not see if they took any precautions against crumbs falling on the floor.

Unlike you, I fall on the side of assuming that they did when they do not show it rather than automatically assuming the worst.

There may be, but that does not mean that 1) there were any crumbs that fell on the floor or 2) that they did not take this into account and did something about it.

How about you answer this. Just because something is not shown in a video does that mean that it did not or could not have happened?

When someone breaks off a piece of bread with their teeth, there are going to be crumbs, it’s inevitable, and it doesn’t matter how many, one crumb is still a desecration.

The video showed that they took no precautions, people were holding it in their hands like a biscuit and chewing bits off with no plate or cloth to collect particles.

 

[Jo_Benedict]

Note:

This thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.