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mentalmagicman
Guest
Thank you!
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi!
…they do but hardly engage in discussions–it’s a hit and run, for the most part.
If you check my response you would get an idea of what is objectionable… though many, under the misunderstanding of ecumenism and cooperation, do take waaaay too many liberties (then there are those that are working to dismantle the Church from within–they will embrace even the guy that comes as the angel of light just to spite the Church).
Maran atha!
Angel
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fhansen
Guest
The main problem is the statement: “believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God.” From the Catechism:
.** . . two distinct modes of transmission
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
97 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God” (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.**
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Bonnie
Guest
They probably just want to make sure that members won’t have R- or X-rated shows. I feel certain that if you gave a statement based either the Nicene Creed or your own personal faith, they would accept it.
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Tomyris
Guest
Probably.
There is a remarkable amount of paranoia on display from some of the posters here. How inviting is it for someone to come on here if they have to prove first of all that they are not a troll? They are a troll unless proven otherwise. Something is severely wrong with that outlook. Before people join a forum they usually read the threads. This thread says “STAY AWAY!” And I think at least one person was rude to the OP and at the least owes him an apology.
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mentalmagicman
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I have read all the responses to my question, but they all leave me with another question.
If there is something else (Sacred Tradition) other than Sacred Scripture that is “the only inspired infallible Word of God,” where is all this written down so that one may read it?
Is it the writings of the Church Fathers, the writings of The Council of Trent, the Creeds, the writing of anything that has an imprimatur?
It would only seem to make sense that there must be a collection of the material that the Church and the respondents on this thread understand to be equal to the inspired infallible Bible. I honestly do not know what it is or where to look.
I am looking to be apprised of what that extra-Biblical teaching is that is considered “inspired infallible” so that I may read it. If equal to the Bible, than it is the very Word of God. If it is not written down then how do we know what it is?
If there is something else (Sacred Tradition) other than Sacred Scripture that is “the only inspired infallible Word of God,” where is all this written down so that one may read it?
Is it the writings of the Church Fathers, the writings of The Council of Trent, the Creeds, the writing of anything that has an imprimatur?
It would only seem to make sense that there must be a collection of the material that the Church and the respondents on this thread understand to be equal to the inspired infallible Bible. I honestly do not know what it is or where to look.
I am looking to be apprised of what that extra-Biblical teaching is that is considered “inspired infallible” so that I may read it. If equal to the Bible, than it is the very Word of God. If it is not written down then how do we know what it is?
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Techno2000
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The Bible is not infallible if anybody can come up with their own personal interpretation of it.
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MysticalSelah
Guest
All this is covered in the Nicene Creed.
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi!
…you are having problem with “Authority.”
The Bible is the Word of God.
Contrary to Protestant understanding, the Bible is not the only source of the Word of God.
In Scriptures we find the Teaching of the Apostles. The Teaching of the Apostles is Known as Sacred Tradition. Yet, Sacred Tradition is both the Written Word and the Oral Teaching.
When Protestants quote Scriptures to signal “sola” Scriptura or “Authority” of Scriptures they quote a passage that speaks about the Old Testament’s Sacred Writing:
(2 Timothy 3:14-15)
Written around 67 AD, 2 Timothy is not speaking about the Bible but on the Old Testament Writings as the New Testament Writings (ranging from 50 AD through 95 AD) did not exist as a collection of Sacred Writings; as the Church grew issues arouse that needed to be addressed–Sacred Writing was inked.
So it was the Oral Tradition/Teaching that preceded the Written Tradition/Teaching.
Yet, the Authority is a combination of Apostolic Tradition (Oral and Written):
(2 Thessalonians 2:15)
But this authority is not left up in the air for man to determine (billions reading the Word of God and having billions of determinations)… there are three distinct passages that speak about the Authority Delegated by Christ that very specifically name the Church as the source of this Delegated Authority:
(St. Matthew 16:18-19)
15 ‘If your brother does something wrong, go and have it out with him alone, is between your two selves. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you: the evidence of two or three witnesses is required to sustain any charge. 17 But if he refuses to listen to these, report it to the community; and if he refuses to listen to the community, treat him like a pagan or a tax collector. 18 ‘I tell you solemnly, whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven. (St. Matthew 18:15-18)
15 but in case I should be delayed, I wanted you to know how people ought to behave in God’s family – that is, in the Church of the living God, which upholds the truth and keeps it safe. (1 Timothy 3:15)
The Apostles Believed Jesus Christ Who Delegated His Authority to the Church and they held that the Church, not the Written Tradition/Word, was the Deposit of Truth/Authority.
How do you get the word from the donkey’s mouth? …you travel back in time and hang around with the Apostles… other than that? You listen to the Written Word that tells you that the Church (which holds the Fullness of Faith: Oral and Written Tradition: Teaching of the Apostles and the Succession of the Apostles, which brought us Catholic Doctrine and the Seven Sacraments) is the Deposit of Truth.
Maran atha!
Angel
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MaryBernard
Guest
This statement is way off. Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, is the infallible Word of God. Why would you replace Jesus with a book?
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mentalmagicman
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With all due respect, I’m not getting an answer to my question about where I can find writings other than the Bible that the Church and it’s followers believe are “infallible inspired.”
So here are a few other questions to help me understand:
Thank you.
So here are a few other questions to help me understand:
- Is the Bible infallible? (What the Bible says regarding matters of faith and Christian practice is wholly useful and true. It is the “belief that the Bible is completely trustworthy as a guide to salvation and the life of faith and will not fail to accomplish its purpose”) - from Wikipedia, “Biblical Infallibility.”
- Is the Bible inspired? (“The special influence of the Holy Spirit on the writers of Sacred Scripture in virtue of which God himself becomes the principal author of the books written and the sacred writer is the subordinate author”) - from the website CatholicCulture.org:
- If the answer to both of those questions is “Yes,” where else can I find material to read that is both infallible and inspired, as the Bible is.
Thank you.
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MysticalSelah
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Yes, but humans are not infallible, and that is why we need the Church’s help.
. The Holy Spirit guided the writers of the Bible. So yes.
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Bonnie
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No. You won’t find any Catholic document that would claim that. Only people (& God) can be infallible. The Pope is infallible when officially defining doctrine. We are infallible when we repeat those statements. The Bible is a book - words on paper - and cannot act; it is therefore not infallible.
Inerrant, yes. Inspired, yes. Infallible, no.
The only reason some Protestants (& some Catholics) claim infallibility for the Bible is because they wrongly think the 2 words mean the same thing.
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fhansen
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There’s not a single reason for presuming that the bible is inspired, while Church tradition is not. The bible can be inerrant, but infallibility is a worthless concept without an entity to infallibly interpret it- inerrantly. What good is an inerrant written word if its interpreters interpret it differently? Who will be the designated interpreter? That’s the real question.
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fhansen
Guest
You can see it in the living practice of the Church, for one thing. While sola scriptura adherents often vigorously debate over the following issues, they were settled from the beginnings of Christianity for the ancient Churches. Both east and west, although virtually isolated from each other for centuries, have always and everywhere practiced infant Baptism, believe in the Real Presence under whatever name they choose to use, teach that a final purification of some sort takes place for those who need it. They both have a priesthood, apostolic succession, teach the same basic doctrine of justification-different from the Reformers-and hold to the same basic sacraments. Sola Scriptura barely provides a clue to the right practice of the faith; the doctrine has no way to do so and only promotes division in the end.
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mentalmagicman
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I’m not convinced that your reply makes sense. If the Bible is literally the words of God, then it would seem that the Bible must be infallible. If the Bible is not infallible, then God is not infallible. It’s hard for me to believe that the Pope can be considered infallible defining doctrine, but God and His word (the Bible) are not infallible.
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fhansen
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I don’t know how “infallible” might apply to the written word. If one person gives their opinion of its meaning, and you have different opinion, which one is correct? The faith has never been understood outside of the Church’s understanding, the Church that God established for that purpose-of receiving, preserving, and spreading the gospel. Everything else is more or less private interpretation. Anyway, infallibility could be ascribed to God, obviously, or to a person or persons He designates or authorizes and guides, but not sure if it could even be a relevant title or concept when applied to the written word.I’m not convinced that your reply makes sense. If the Bible is literally the words of God, then it would seem that the Bible must be infallible. If the Bible is not infallible, then God is not infallible. It’s hard for me to believe that the Pope can be considered infallible defining doctrine, but God and His word (the Bible) are not infallible.
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Bonnie
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As I said, infallibility refers to ACTIONS. In what way does a book act? It doesn’t. Even if one could say the original words of the Biblical writers were infallible, we don’t have them. We have copies of copies of copies that have been translated many times. Would you say that each & every translation is infallible? Of course not (at least I hope you wouldn’t!). But if you did, how would you decide which translation(s) was infallible?I’m not convinced that your reply makes sense. If the Bible is literally the words of God, then it would seem that the Bible must be infallible. If the Bible is not infallible, then God is not infallible. It’s hard for me to believe that the Pope can be considered infallible defining doctrine, but God and His word (the Bible) are not infallible.
So - God acts, and can be called infallible. Man acts, and can be called infallible (in certain situations).
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mentalmagicman
Guest
I appreciate the dialogue here, but I don;t want to get sidetracked from what I am really trying to find.
The original question dealt with the Bible being or not being the “only inspired infallible Word of God.”
It appears that none of the respondents here agree with the claim that the Bible is the “only inspired infallible Word of God.”
So here are my questions:
For those of you who don’t feel that there is any “infallible inspired” source, I understand why you cannot point me in any direction.
I don’t know how else to explain what I am trying to find out.
The original question dealt with the Bible being or not being the “only inspired infallible Word of God.”
It appears that none of the respondents here agree with the claim that the Bible is the “only inspired infallible Word of God.”
So here are my questions:
- Does the disagreement mean that the Bible IS NOT “inspired infallible”?
- Does the disagreement mean that the Bible is “inspired infallible” but that there is something else ALONG WITH the Bible that is “inspired infallible”?
- If there is something OTHER or ALONG WITH the Bible that is “inspired infallible,” where may I FIND these teachings/words/doctrines/treatises/etc, in order that I may READ them?
For those of you who don’t feel that there is any “infallible inspired” source, I understand why you cannot point me in any direction.
I don’t know how else to explain what I am trying to find out.
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Bonnie
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The Catholic answer is that the Bible is inspired but not infallible. You obviously don’t like that answer, so why not ask people from other religions? You might find an answer you like.
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