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palmas85
Guest
Has anyone heard of a Papal decree changing the Stations of the Cross because six of them were considered anti-semitic?
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AJV
Guest
That is a media thing…they are using an alternative ‘Scriptural Stations’ set for WYD. If you look on Wikipedia (yes, I know…) you can see the same alternative listing. It’s not new.
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AJV
Guest
The Scriptural Stations have (since 1991) been used in certain years at past Good Fridays at the Colosseum at Rome. This is a slight variation on that that also became popular. I remember that the year before last, when the Scriptural stations were used, the media came up again with the “Pope changes Stations” story despite the fact they had been used previously. See here. The variation includes the Eucharist instead of the denial by St. Peter, and combines the Betrayal and the Agony into one.
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Genesis315
Guest
There’s no official set of stations as far as I know. Here’s a good article on the history of the Via Dolorosa with some examples of other variations–even the 14 we usually see are relatively new (as far as these things go):
newadvent.org/cathen/15569a.htm
As for the popular set of 14, I’m not sure which can be construed as antisemetic…
newadvent.org/cathen/15569a.htm
As for the popular set of 14, I’m not sure which can be construed as antisemetic…
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misterbee
Guest
The only place I’ve heard of it is traditio.com - a website run by a bitter sedevacantist. I go there to keep up with what the zealots are claiming and to see what Mel Gibson’s up to (the webmaster has a strange affinity for Mel Gibson).
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saint_rafael
Guest
I think it is a complete disgrace that we have a thing such as the scriptural stations of the cross. It is completely the result of the error of ecumenism and all its ecumenia.
The Church doesn’t want to offend Protestants so they just get rid of their Sacred Tradition in favor of the sola scriptura novelty because we don’t want to confront the Protestants with our tradition of St. Veronica wiping the face of Jesus.
God forbid the Church defends the word of God as revealed in written and oral tradition.
St. Veronica Ora Pro Nobis
The Church doesn’t want to offend Protestants so they just get rid of their Sacred Tradition in favor of the sola scriptura novelty because we don’t want to confront the Protestants with our tradition of St. Veronica wiping the face of Jesus.
God forbid the Church defends the word of God as revealed in written and oral tradition.
St. Veronica Ora Pro Nobis
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LilyM
Guest
God forbid that the Church decides to use what is ACTUALLY written in scripture - on just one day of the year and in just one place in the world - instead of totally undogmatic and utterly small-t (not capital T by any means) traditions such as the three falls.I think it is a complete disgrace that we have a thing such as the scriptural stations of the cross. It is completely the result of the error of ecumenism and all its ecumenia.
The Church doesn’t want to offend Protestants so they just get rid of their Sacred Tradition in favor of the sola scriptura novelty because we don’t want to confront the Protestants with our tradition of St. Veronica wiping the face of Jesus.
God forbid the Church defends the word of God as revealed in written and oral tradition.
St. Veronica Ora Pro Nobis
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Flopfoot
Guest
There is no need to fight about it since both forms of the Stations of the Cross are considered okay by the Church. I personally prefer the old version and don’t necessarily agree with the reasons behind the choice of stations at WYD (the Protestants can stick it, they are the splitters after all is my opinion), I can’t actually say the choice itself is wrong.
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saint_rafael
Guest
The Church actually uses what is in scripture with the fourteen stations.God forbid that the Church decides to use what is ACTUALLY written in scripture - on just one day of the year and in just one place in the world - instead of totally undogmatic and utterly small-t (not capital T by any means) traditions such as the three falls.
The three falls and St. Veronica fall under Sacred Tradition. This is the big T. Sacred Tradition is infallible.
You make the Protestant argument when you say it’s undogmatic. It is actually part of the Sacred Tradition which is one of th three infallible pillars. The other two being the Bible and Magisterium.
This novelty has never existed in the history of the Church. No Pope or hierachy has used a different form until our ecumeniacs decided to have it in our modern times.
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Balance
Guest
Yes, sacred tradition is infallible. This is because it is divine revelation; something every Catholic is bound to believe. The legend of Veronica wiping the face of Christ is nowhere defined as an essential part of the Catholic faith - it is not “big-T Tradition”. Like any of the countless stories and legends that have been passed down through the ages, this one may or may not be true. A Catholic is free to believe a legend like this or not. (As long as, of course, any given story doesn’t contradict Catholic teaching.)
Like the Rosary, the devotion of the Stations developed over time. It took different forms before settling into what we know today.
I’d suggest you do some research into this - another poster provided a link above - and you’ll see that there’s nothing frightening about using a different set of stations. They’re not set in stone.
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Balance
Guest
“(the Protestants can stick it, they are the splitters after all is my opinion)”
Paragrpah 817 of the Catechism:
In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church—for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”
Paragraph 815:
What are (the) bonds of unity? Above all, charity ‘binds everything together in perfect harmony.’
Can I gently suggest your comment above was not very charitable? Labels like “splitters” are never very helpful, and language like “Protestants can stick it” even less so. True apologetics begins and ends in charity: let’s pray that our mediation on the Lord’s Via Dolorosa will make us more like him, and more able to work towards healing the wounds that separate Christians.
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saint_rafael
Guest
It is not a legend. I want to vomit. It is unbelievable that we can have Catholics this uncatechized. St. Veronica wiping the face of Jesus is part of the oral tradition of the Church that makes up the Big T tradition, the Sacred Tradition. St. Veronica is canonized. The Church canonizes real people who are part of history.
Oral Tadition is big T tradition because it is the word of God. We call the written tradition the Bible.
To state that St. Veronica is not part of Sacred Tradition is to basically have a Protestantized faith.
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patrick457
Guest
Haven’t heard of that.
In the Philippines, a ‘Scriptural Stations of the Cross’ (which is a bit distinct from the WYD ones) is quite widespread. The two main variants I’ve noted are:
- The Last Supper
- The Agony in the Garden
- Jesus is tried by the Sanhedrin (Jesus is condemned to death)
- Jesus is condemned to death (Jesus is scourged and crowned with thorns)
- Jesus is scourged and crowned with thorns (Jesus is made to carry the Cross)
- Jesus is made to carry the Cross (Jesus falls down under the weight of the Cross)
- Simon of Cyrene is made to carry the Cross
- Jesus meets the Women of Jerusalem
- Jesus is stripped of His garments and nailed to the Cross
- Jesus promises Paradise to the Repentant Thief
- Jesus entrusts His mother to John
- Jesus dies
- Jesus is taken down from the Cross and is buried
- The Resurrection
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patrick457
Guest
It’s quite an early one too.
Mention of Veronica (popularly thought to be a combination of the Latin and Greek words ‘Vera’ and ‘Ikona’ which means ‘True Image’, though could also easily be a Latinisation of the Macedonian name ‘Berenike’ meaning ‘Bearer of victory’; cognate to Greek ‘Pherenikē’) first appears in the Apocryphal Gospel the Acts of Pilate (written and revised many times between 150-400), where, at least in the Second Greek and Latin version of it, she appears as the hemorrhaging woman cured by Jesus (the First Greek version does not name the woman):
By the 7th-8th century, a work called The Avenging of the Savior continues the association of Veronica with the hemorrhaging woman. This also marks one of the first times that a mention of an image of Jesus in a cloth appears:
The story then continues with the veil being brought to Rome before the Emperor Tiberius, who was healed of a grave illness by gazing on it (the story also records that every sick and disabled person present during this audience was also healed), whereupon he converted to Christianity.
In another document from the same period, The Death of Pilate, Veronica tells Tiberius’ messenger thus:
Here, she is a disciple of Jesus who who wished to have a picture of him. Jesus obliged her by pressing to his face a cloth which then bore his likeness. It is interesting to note that this story is quite similar to the story of King Abgar and the Mandylion of Edessa.
By the Middle Ages during William Caxton’s (who translated Jacobus Voragine’s Golden Legend) time, the incident in which this event happens was transferred: the imprinting of the cloth now occurs during the Passion, as Jesus makes his way to Calvary.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
The Way of the Cross is one of my favorite devotions. My wife and I pray the way of the Cross daily. Our favorite is the one of St Alphosus Ligouri. We do pray several different forms, but this is our favorite, especially always said on Good Friday.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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LilyM
Guest
The canonisation of St Veronica was done well before the days when it was a Papal or Magisterial act and thus infallible in any way - or big T tradition in any way. She was canonised, as the phrase goes, by ‘popular acclaim’, which is most certainly not infallible and most certainly doth not big-T Tradition make.
As for Patrick’s account - yes, she’s mentioned in apocryphal writings. Which again are tradition but not big-T Tradition and thus necessary of belief. Is it required belief that Mary was a Temple Virgin because the Protevangelium says so? Or that Joseph was 85 years old when he married her because an apocryphal account of his life says so?
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
In the four pillars which support the dome at St Peters in Rome, there is a niche in each one which holds a large reliquary One is said to hold the spear of St Longinus, which pierced the side of Christ, another holds nails which were used in the crucifixion, another (and I am not totally sure about this one) the head of St James the apostle, and in the fourth, the veil which St Veronica used to wipe the face of Jesus. We do not know the true name of St Veronica, as that name is a contraction/combination of two Latin words. Veritas and Ica, (Icon) meaning true image.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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LilyM
Guest
I don’t know what you’re hoping to prove by this.
If you go to France, both Angers Cathedral and Amiens Cathedral have (or have had in the past) relics which are (were) claimed to be the head of John the Baptist. Since I’m presuming St John only had the one head, one or other of 'em is (was) wrong.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
If you read the prior posts, you will see that there was discussion as to the existence of St Veronica. As to the head of St James, my memory tells me that our guide, a priest who was the official guide for the Council fathers for Vatican II, told us that the head of St James was either returned or was going to be returned to St James Campostella (sp) in Spain. I would consider him an excellent source for information re St Peters. , and no, I do not recall his name as this was done on my first trip to the Vatican which was in 1985.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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