Statistics on Latin Mass?

[CutlerB]

Hello there everyone,

I just saw that Cardinal Lehmann of Germany is against having more Masses in the Extraordinary Form. At the “Eucharistic Congress” in Cologne, he told the local news “I have the feeling that all the enthusiasm, including for Latin, has much to do with prestige and the false pretending of a certain cultural elite”. He believes “an increased side-by-side existence of the two liturgical forms does not make sense, partly because it didn’t grow from the ground up” (I assume he means there was no big demand among the laity) and that “development is leading towards the renewed Mass”.

That prompted me to find some information on how the use of the Extraordinary Form has developed around the world, especially in the Western world. Does anyone know whether there are statistics on this? For example, what’s Mass attendance like, how many parishes are offering this Form, is it growing, etc.?

I’d be very grateful for any help you can provide. God bless.

 

[GWright]

Hi there CutlerB

Does anyone know whether there are statistics on this?

Yeh, Rorate Caeli is a good source of such information. Heres a few examples from them and elsewhere:

I see you are in Germany, so this link will be good for you. It charts the development of the TLM in German Speaking lands from 2007 - last updated January 2013. (Doesnt include SSPX masses as they are “irregular”).

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-tlm-in-german-speaking-lands.html

Searching Rorate yields other good stats, eg:

Stats for every-Sunday latin masses in 10 countries (2010)

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/02/statistics-for-every-sunday-tlms-in-10.html

Info on the explosive growth of every-sunday TLMs in the USA: (1988 - now)

ecclesiadei.org/Information.htm

Poll from Catholic Herald (UK - 2010) suggests half of people would attend a TLM:

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2010/09/03/poll-almost-half-of-mass-goers-would-attend-older-form/

This wikipedia page gives references for various estimates of the number of “traditional catholics”:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholic#Number_of_traditionalist_Catholics

Theres lots of good info out there. Recently I saw some data on the number of prelates of the Church who had celebrated a public TLM at least once - it was only about 300 or so, out of ~5000 Bishops, but the number is rapidly growing. I think this was at Rorate Caeli too.

And If you check the home pages of traditional groups - FSSP, SSPX, ICKSP etc - they often have useful info regarding their growth and ordinations etc.

Hope this helps!
Cheers
GWright

 

[CutlerB]

Hi there CutlerB

Yeh, Rorate Caeli is a good source of such information. Heres a few examples from them and elsewhere:

I see you are in Germany, so this link will be good for you. It charts the development of the TLM in German Speaking lands from 2007 - last updated January 2013. (Doesnt include SSPX masses as they are “irregular”).

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-tlm-in-german-speaking-lands.html

Searching Rorate yields other good stats, eg:

Stats for every-Sunday latin masses in 10 countries (2010)

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/02/statistics-for-every-sunday-tlms-in-10.html

Info on the explosive growth of every-sunday TLMs in the USA: (1988 - now)

ecclesiadei.org/Information.htm

Poll from Catholic Herald (UK - 2010) suggests half of people would attend a TLM:

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2010/09/03/poll-almost-half-of-mass-goers-would-attend-older-form/

This wikipedia page gives references for various estimates of the number of “traditional catholics”:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholic#Number_of_traditionalist_Catholics

Theres lots of good info out there. Recently I saw some data on the number of prelates of the Church who had celebrated a public TLM at least once - it was only about 300 or so, out of ~5000 Bishops, but the number is rapidly growing. I think this was at Rorate Caeli too.

And If you check the home pages of traditional groups - FSSP, SSPX, ICKSP etc - they often have useful info regarding their growth and ordinations etc.

Hope this helps!
Cheers
GWright

Beautiful, thank you! I didn’t expect such a plethora, great!

 

[GWright]

My pleasure, friend!

 

[L_Marshall]

My two cents regarding the “two forms of liturgy not being able to coexist.”

Whenever anyone says this, they completely destroy and insult any Rite in Catholicism that is not the Ordinary Roman Rite. The Rites of the Church have existed for over a thousand years, with some of the Rites being older than the standardized Roman Rite.

Two different forms of liturgy can’t exist side by side? There’s never been a moment where there’s been only one form of liturgy!

 

[marimagi]

My two cents regarding the “two forms of liturgy not being able to coexist.”

Whenever anyone says this, they completely destroy and insult any Rite in Catholicism that is not the Ordinary Roman Rite. The Rites of the Church have existed for over a thousand years, with some of the Rites being older than the standardized Roman Rite.

Two different forms of liturgy can’t exist side by side? There’s never been a moment where there’s been only one form of liturgy!

In my parish (actually, the parish I drive a distance to attend,) a lot of Latin is incorporated. The choir sings mostly in Latin. We say the Nicene Creed, the Gloria, and the Sanctus in Latin most weeks.

 

[L_Marshall]

In my parish (actually, the parish I drive a distance to attend,) a lot of Latin is incorporated. The choir sings mostly in Latin. We say the Nicene Creed, the Gloria, and the Sanctus in Latin most weeks.

At least someone read Sacrosanctum Concilium!

 

[Cider]

If you use his theory logically it actually disproves his argument.

 

[Mike30]

Sadly, not at all an unusual argument by a Bishop. Reminds me of a very famous Cardinal in the United States.

 

[jwinch2]

I read an article not that long ago which suggested that within 5 years, there will be more people attending Mass at SSPX chapels than at regular diocesan Masses or regularized Masses from religious communities. I am not sure of the truth of the matter, but if so, it is quite telling and also quite sad.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And yet, if somebody made the very same statement, that an ‘enthusiasm for the OF Mass’ was from those who considered themselves ‘culturally elite’, oh how the cries of “Speculation” and 'Unfounded" and “Unkind” would resound.

And yet, how often does one hear how it was the ‘uneducated little old ladies’ who were the ones who demanded the Latin Mass (hardly 'culturally elite")

and how often does one hear from those who pronounce themselves scholars, teachers, professionals, who demand the OF (and really, these are the ‘creme’ of the elite). . .

Sounds to me as though the conclusion drawn from the speech (because this might not be what the Cardinal himself meant to convey) is meant to ‘stir the pot’. Gee, what a SURPRISE.

 

[OraLabora]

At least someone read Sacrosanctum Concilium!

The abbey I’m associated with does the OF Mass with the propers in Latin Gregorian chant, and the ordinary in Gregorian chant as well (Latin/Greek). The rest is in French plainchant (even the readings and EP are fully chanted; the only thing not chanted is the homily )

Every single day (except during weekdays, the French plainchant uses simpler tones, and the intercessions are read, not chanted).

Lauds and Vespers are chanted every day in Latin.

It’s probably too much to ask of parishes. However it’s great that this exists at least to act as an example of what SC intended, and to act as a resource to keep chant alive and make their expertise available to parishes that do want to at least incorporate some in their liturgies.

I sing in a small schola that rotates around different parishes from month to month, and our principal resource was the choirmaster of the abbey who trained us, acted as our choirmaster for a while and afterwards, gave us regular refreshers.

 

[vat2bad]

We are winning the battle to restore the Church… My priest said in 150 years the Novus Ordo will be gone. In France because so few Catholics go to mass, 25% of Catholics in France that actually go to mass go to the traditional mass. Time is on the side of the counter reformation in the Church.

 

[jwinch2]

It’s probably too much to ask of parishes. However it’s great that this exists at least to act as an example of what SC intended, and to act as a resource to keep chant alive and make their expertise available to parishes that do want to at least incorporate some in their liturgies.

You are probably correct on this. Thankfully though, there are a number of great resources which have come out in the last few years which make it pretty easy to incorporate chant, the propers, etc. into the Mass, in a way that the average parish can manage without too much difficulty.

 

[marimagi]

We are winning the battle to restore the Church… My priest said in 150 years the Novus Ordo will be gone. In France because so few Catholics go to mass, 25% of Catholics in France that actually go to mass go to the traditional mass. Time is on the side of the counter reformation in the Church.

I hope so. I don’t think so many people would be leaving, if the Church would restore an attitude towards the sacred. I have been to too many churches where the priest says Mass in an overly casual way. If Mass does not convey something that is distinct from our daily secular experiences, it becomes less important to take time out of a Sunday to go from one in an array of secular experiences, to what just feels like another.

I know that Christ’s True Presence in the Eucharist is the central reason for attending Mass. But I feel that where once the Church treated His Real Presence as a visit from Christ our King, He is now treated like Jesus the Dude; where we say “Come on in and sing Kumbaya with us.”

 

[jwinch2]

I read an article not that long ago which suggested that within 5 years, there will be more people attending Mass at SSPX chapels than at regular diocesan Masses or regularized Masses from religious communities. I am not sure of the truth of the matter, but if so, it is quite telling and also quite sad.

That article was in relation to France, not everywhere. I forgot to put that in when I wrote this earlier. My apologies for any confusion. Mea Culpa.

 

[Ghislieri]

That article was in relation to France, not everywhere. I forgot to put that in when I wrote this earlier. My apologies for any confusion. Mea Culpa.

I’ve read this statistic as well from several sources. It’s certainly sad, but not surprising.

A close friend of our family who is a retired priest told us that in his opinion, the NO Mass will eventually be abrogated because there will be hardly anyone going to church anyway and the Latin Mass will be restored as the normative. I think he is right.

 

[jwinch2]

I’ve read this statistic as well from several sources. It’s certainly sad, but not surprising.

A close friend of our family who is a retired priest told us that in his opinion, the NO Mass will eventually be abrogated because there will be hardly anyone going to church anyway and the Latin Mass will be restored as the normative. I think he is right.

I’m not sure how I feel about that idea or whether I believe it will happen in that manner. I believe that eventually, some of the older prayers, etc. will be brought into the OF, the proper antiphons will be regularized rather than done rarely, etc. but I am not sure about a complete reversal.

I do think, for example, that the expanded use of Sacred Scripture in the readings is a very good thing, in particular the Old Testament. A great deal of work was put in in an effort to show the continuity between Christianity and the old covenant, in particular how the Old Testament is fulfilled in the new. By and large, I see that as being successful.

 

[otjm]

According to Rorate Caeli, there are 400 Masses in the EF weekly.

There are 17,640 parishes in the U.S. Assuming an average of three Masses per parish on the weekend (Saturday night/Sunday), that works out about seventy six hundredths of one percent of the Saturday/Sunday Masses each weekend.

I assume 3 Masses per weekend average; my suburban parish has four; and there will be mission parishes with one; small parishes with two, and some large parishes with as many as five or six.

And those seem to be the statistics. Assuming there are an average of 2.5 Masses per parish, that makes the EF a little less than ninety one hundredths of one percent.

 

[jwinch2]

According to Rorate Caeli, there are 400 Masses in the EF weekly.

There are 17,640 parishes in the U.S. Assuming an average of three Masses per parish on the weekend (Saturday night/Sunday), that works out about seventy six hundredths of one percent of the Saturday/Sunday Masses each weekend.

I assume 3 Masses per weekend average; my suburban parish has four; and there will be mission parishes with one; small parishes with two, and some large parishes with as many as five or six.

And those seem to be the statistics. Assuming there are an average of 2.5 Masses per parish, that makes the EF a little less than ninety one hundredths of one percent.

Probably a pretty good ballpark number. I would be interested to see priestly vocations per as a similar ratio.