statistics on the five major world religions

[Marybeloved]

Brother Ahimsa,

Just to help explain it a bit more, let me explain it with some biblical illustrations. It’s said that When sts Peter and (I forget the other saint) performed some great feats, people bowed down to them as if to worship then and they tore off their clothes in horror in protest at this act. In revelations we see the same thing again with regards to angels who appeared to st. John. The angel was just so awesome to st john than he inspired the same reaction in st. john as St Peter had inspired in those people, and he fell before the angel who protested just like st. Peter. To Christians, neither st. Peter nor the superior angel are any more divine than those people who fell before St. Peter or st. John.

Peace

 

[someguy14]

Hey, do Christians believe that Isa and Jesus are not the same person? I never heard it before. Do you know that exactly?If they are not the same then who is Isa? can you explain please?

I have a friend from Saudi Arabi, a muslim, that portrayed Jesus as a prophet and is mentioned numerous times in his quran.

Acts 3

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers , A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass , that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken , have likewise foretold of these days.

 

[Ahimsa]

Dear Ahimsa,

I’m afraid that a similar search for “god” yields the same results as people here understand. For example, from these definitions (please read this collection of definitions- I cannot reproduce the entire page here) thefreedictionary.com/god
…
It seems to me that gods, especially as illustrated from the different polytheistic religions are super-natural beings who control some aspect of the world and are worshipped,And please respond to my explanations of the christian concepts of angels through my illustrations above with regard to our human saints and other hypothetical non-human beings. Did you get the difference I was underscoring? We are not to lower beings, deities or gods, and neither are the angels gods to us- this was my point.

Hi Marybeloved,

From the link:
A god: A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
Do Angels fit this definition of “god”?

1. Are Angels supernatural? Yes.
2. Do Angels have powers? Yes.
3. Do people believe in Angels? Yes.

Now, the key part:

1. Are Angels worshipped?

[continued]

 

[Ahimsa]

The word “worship” is another key term that, I think, is the source of much disagreement.

What does worship mean? This is what the Oxford English Dictionary says, which I think is a very good definition:
Reverence or veneration paid to a being or power regarded as supernatural or divine; the action or practice of displaying this by appropriate acts, rites, or ceremonies.
I understand the hesitation to describe “worship” in relationship to Angels, but “worship” (like “god”) can mean several things. “Worship” can mean the devotion that is only to be directed to the One Ultimate Being.

“Worship” can also mean, as the definition from the OED above state, any sort of love, reverence, and devotion that is directed towards any sacred person or object that is regarded as supernatural.

In regards to Angels in Christianity, I don’t see how you can say that, at least in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, that Angels are not “worshipped” in the sense of the definition above.

Prayers to Angels, from the Russian Orthodox tradition:

Prayer to all Holy Heavenly Hosts
All Holy Heavenly Bodiless Hosts,vouchsafe us your
power to cast down all evil and passions under our feet.
Holy bodiless Seraphim, vouchsafe us to have a blazing
heart towards God.
Holy bodiless Cherubim, vouchsafe us to have wisdom
for the glory of God
Holy bodiless Thrones, vouchsafe us to discern the truth
from the untruth.
Holy bodiless Dominions, vouchsafe us to dominate over
passions, so that the spirit should govern over the flesh.
Holy bodiless Powers, vouchsafe us to have courage in
fulfilling the will of God.
Holy bodiless Authorities, vouchsafe us to have the power
of victory over evil.
Holy bodiless Principalities, vouchsafe us to serve the
Lord God in the purity of our hearts and our hands.
Holy bodiless Archangels, vouchsafe us to fulfill the will
of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Holy bodiless Angels, vouchsafe us to instruct the weak
enlightening them in the truth.

Similar prayers may be found in the Latin tradition.

I would also add that the idea of the “worship” of created, supernatural beings (in Greek, proskynesis, as opposed to latreia, the adoration due only to the One Ultimate Being), is part of Catholic tradition:
Anastasius, Bishop of Theopolis (d. 609), who was a friend of St. Gregory and translated his “Regula pastoralis” into Greek, expresses himself in almost the same way and makes the distinction between proskynesis and latreia that became so famous in Iconoclast times: “We worship (proskynoumen) men and the holy angels; we do not adore (latreuomen) them. Moses says: Thou shalt worship thy God and Him only shalt thou adore. Behold, before the word ‘adore’ he puts ‘only’, but not before the word ‘worship’, because it is lawful to worship [creatures], since worship is only giving special honour (times emphasis), but it is not lawful to adore them nor by any means to give them prayers of adoration (proseuxasthai)”
So, to answer the fourth question: Are Angels worshipped? We must say “Yes!”

In terms of the definition of “god” you gave me, Angels are indeed gods.

Now, I have no illusion of convincing people to start saying that Angels are gods, so I rest my case here.

 

[Marybeloved]

The word “worship” is another key term that, I think, is the source of much disagreement.

What does worship mean? This is what the Oxford English Dictionary says, which I think is a very good definition:Reverence or veneration paid to a being or power regarded as supernatural or divine; the action or practice of displaying this by appropriate acts, rites, or ceremonies.
I understand the hesitation to describe “worship” in relationship to Angels, but “worship” (like “god”) can mean several things. “Worship” can mean the devotion that is only to be directed to the One Ultimate Being.

“Worship” can also mean, as the definition from the OED above state, any sort of love, reverence, and devotion that is directed towards any sacred person or object that is regarded as supernatural.

In regards to Angels in Christianity, I don’t see how you can say that, at least in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, that Angels are not “worshipped” in the sense of the definition above.

Prayers to Angels, from the Russian Orthodox tradition:

Prayer to all Holy Heavenly Hosts
All Holy Heavenly Bodiless Hosts,vouchsafe us your
power to cast down all evil and passions under our feet.
Holy bodiless Seraphim, vouchsafe us to have a blazing
heart towards God.
Holy bodiless Cherubim, vouchsafe us to have wisdom
for the glory of God
Holy bodiless Thrones, vouchsafe us to discern the truth
from the untruth.
Holy bodiless Dominions, vouchsafe us to dominate over
passions, so that the spirit should govern over the flesh.
Holy bodiless Powers, vouchsafe us to have courage in
fulfilling the will of God.
Holy bodiless Authorities, vouchsafe us to have the power
of victory over evil.
Holy bodiless Principalities, vouchsafe us to serve the
Lord God in the purity of our hearts and our hands.
Holy bodiless Archangels, vouchsafe us to fulfill the will
of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Holy bodiless Angels, vouchsafe us to instruct the weak

enlightening them in the truth.

Similar prayers may be found in the Latin tradition.

I would also add that the idea of the “worship” of created, supernatural beings (in Greek, proskynesis, as opposed to latreia, the adoration due only to the One Ultimate Being), is part of Catholic tradition:Anastasius, Bishop of Theopolis (d. 609), who was a friend of St. Gregory and translated his “Regula pastoralis” into Greek, expresses himself in almost the same way and makes the distinction between proskynesis and latreia that became so famous in Iconoclast times: “We worship (proskynoumen) men and the holy angels; we do not adore (latreuomen) them. Moses says: Thou shalt worship thy God and Him only shalt thou adore. Behold, before the word ‘adore’ he puts ‘only’, but not before the word ‘worship’, because it is lawful to worship [creatures], since worship is only giving special honour (times emphasis), but it is not lawful to adore them nor by any means to give them prayers of adoration (proseuxasthai)”
So, to answer the fourth question: Are Angels worshipped? We must say “Yes!”

In terms of the definition of “god” you gave me, Angels are indeed gods.

Now, I have no illusion of convincing people to start saying that Angels are gods, so I rest my case here.

Now, now Ahimsa, are you not seeing the obvious here? You’ve just illustrated christian veneration that is offered equally to human saints and angels- Explain how that shows that angels are deities to humans. How is that different in any way from what I’ve been saying to you for the last 4/5 posts, unless you just don’t want to see it? This veneration is the same as we offer to Pope John Paul II, Blesed. Do you think this makes him a deity to us?

 

[Ahimsa]

Now, now Ahimsa, are you not seeing the obvious here? You’ve just illustrated christian veneration that is offered equally to human saints and angels- Explain how that shows that angels are deities to humans. How is that different in any way from what I’ve been saying to you for the last 4/5 posts, unless you just don’t want to see it? This veneration is the same as we offer to Pope John Paul II, Blesed. Do you think this makes him a deity to us?

Hi Marybeloved,

You offered a definition of “god”. I simply showed how Angels fit that definition, even showing how Angels are worshipped (which is another name for “veneration”, as seen in my definition of “worship” above and my quote from The Catholic Encyclopedia). Are you now saying that Angels are not given proskynesis, that Angels are not worshipped/venerated? Are you saying that that definition of “god” you presented is incorrect?

 

[Ahimsa]

Brother Ahimsa,

Just to help explain it a bit more, let me explain it with some biblical illustrations. It’s said that When sts Peter and (I forget the other saint) performed some great feats, people bowed down to them as if to worship then and they tore off their clothes in horror in protest at this act. In revelations we see the same thing again with regards to angels who appeared to st. John. The angel was just so awesome to st john than he inspired the same reaction in st. john as St Peter had inspired in those people, and he fell before the angel who protested just like st. Peter. To Christians, neither st. Peter nor the superior angel are any more divine than those people who fell before St. Peter or st. John.

Peace

Hi Marybeloved,

The definition of “god” you presented said that a god had to be “supernatural”. Peter and Paul were not “supernatural”, so they would not be included under the definition of “god” that you presented.

 

[Marybeloved]

Brother Ahimsa,

This also is a classic argument in those controversies I spoke about earlier found in monotheistic religions between those against seeking the intercessions of saints and those against it.

It’s really not honest inter-religious discussions when you seek to impose meanings to people that are completely foreign to their way of thinking to prove a point. You want to insist that angels are gods to Christians (A completely foreign idea to us) by insisting that they are “worshipped” as gods, something that is clearly understood in English to refer to worship of the divine and which does not come close to describing the veneration we give again equally to all “the saints/victorious” in heaven, who include humans and angels- equally brothers in our theology, as I explained.

That prayer is a prayer seeking the help of angels as can be found in the litany of the saints or the prayers to the Blessed Virgin- The angels are not being invoked by virtue of their higher nature (even the demons share these natures!), as you seem to assume, but by the fact that they are saints! Like the Human Martyrs in heaven! As I’ve already said. Do you really not see the foreign concept you’re trying to impute to us, here?

 

[Ahimsa]

Brother Ahimsa,

This also is a classic argument in those controversies I spoke about earlier found in monotheistic religions between those against seeking the intercessions of saints and those against it.

It’s really not honest inter-religious discussions when you seek to impose meanings to people that are completely foreign to their way of thinking to prove a point. You want to insist that angels are gods to Christians (A completely foreign idea to us) by insisting that they are “worshipped” as gods, something that is clearly understood in English to refer to worship of the divine and which does not come close to describing the veneration we give again equally to all “the saints/victorious” in heaven, who include humans and angels- equally brothers in our theology, as I explained.

That prayer is a prayer seeking the help of angels as can be found in the litany of the saints or the prayers to the Blessed Virgin- The angels are not being invoked by virtue of their higher nature (even the demons share these natures!), as you seem to assume, but by the fact that they are saints! Like the Human Martyrs in heaven! As I’ve already said. Do you really not see the foreign concept you’re trying to impute to us, here?

Hi Marybeloved,

Yes, the Angels are “gods” to Christians – not the “One Ultimate Being” God, but the “being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped proskynesis] by a people” god. I’m simply using a very commonly accepted definition of “god” that you said was accurate.

Now, again, I have no illusions of trying to convince people to start calling Christians “polytheists”, because of the negative history and connotations associated with being called a “polytheist”: to be called a “polytheist” is often shorthand for being called “heathen”, “pagan”, “unbeliever”, “immoral”, “unethical”, “faithless”, “infidel”, just to pick some of the nicer terms. So, I completely understand the historical and psychological reasons for Christians not liking to be called “polytheist”. But one of my larger points is that, because of that very fact of all these negative connotations associated with “polytheism”, that we simply abandon the use of that word altogether, and use other terms that are more descriptive and more accurate.

 

[catharina]

Hi Marybeloved,

Yes, the Angels are “gods” to Christians – not the “One Ultimate Being” God, but the “being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped proskynesis] by a people” god. I’m simply using a very commonly accepted definition of “god” that you said was accurate.

Now, again, I have no illusions of trying to convince people to start calling Christians “polytheists”, because of the negative history and connotations associated with being called a “polytheist”: to be called a “polytheist” is often shorthand for being called “heathen”, “pagan”, “unbeliever”, “immoral”, “unethical”, “faithless”, “infidel”, just to pick some of the nicer terms. So, I completely understand the historical and psychological reasons for Christians not liking to be called “polytheist”. But one of my larger points is that, because of that very fact of all these negative connotations associated with “polytheism”, that we simply abandon the use of that word altogether, and use other terms that are more descriptive and more accurate.

Who is this “we?”
Clearly, MaryBeloved is not one of your “we.”
She is in a discussion with you, but you stand alone
as a “Jesus Buddhist” who seeks to abolish current
understandings in favor of what the ancient Greeks held.

Monotheism is monotheism, polytheism is polytheism.
The accepted defintions of today carry the weight.

 

[Ahimsa]

Monotheism is monotheism, polytheism is polytheism.
The accepted defintions of today carry the weight.

Uh, Marybeloved and I just discussed those definitions.

 

[catharina]

Uh, Marybeloved and I just discussed those definitions.

Uh, I noticed and therefore I added to that discussion.

 

[Ahimsa]

She is in a discussion with you, but you stand alone
as a “Jesus Buddhist” who seeks to abolish current
understandings in favor of what the ancient Greeks held.

The quote I gave wasn’t from “ancient” Greece. It was from the early Church, quoted in The Catholic Encyclopedia:
Anastasius, Bishop of Theopolis (d. 609), who was a friend of St. Gregory and translated his “Regula pastoralis” into Greek, expresses himself in almost the same way and makes the distinction between proskynesis and latreia that became so famous in Iconoclast times: “We worship (proskynoumen) men and the holy angels; we do not adore (latreuomen) them. Moses says: Thou shalt worship thy God and Him only shalt thou adore. Behold, before the word ‘adore’ he puts ‘only’, but not before the word ‘worship’, because it is lawful to worship [creatures], since worship is only giving special honour (times emphasis), but it is not lawful to adore them nor by any means to give them prayers of adoration (proseuxasthai)”

 

[Marybeloved]

Hi Marybeloved,

From the link:A god: A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
Do Angels fit this definition of “god”?

1. Are Angels supernatural? Yes.
2. Do Angels have powers? Yes.
3. Do people believe in Angels? Yes.

Now, the key part:

1. Are Angels worshipped?

[continued]

Please see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural

Brother Ahimsa,

According to your very dishonest approach/mode of judgment, Even this criteria fails, because supernatural to us means beyond what is proper to nature and involves only God- To the angelic powers we ascribe the word preternatural, meaning above human nature but proper to the nature of the angels, below supernatural (proper to God’s nature).

But more than this, I’m really surprised by your dishonesty here, I really thought we were having a candid inter-religious discussion where you genuinely seek to understand, as I now do, regarding Vedas. Firstly, there are more than that one definition you picked, which by your dishonest criteria, fails. Secondly, worship is defined in more than the ways you sought to suggest, so the idea that that was my definition is dishonest. There’s the definition that shows clearly, that the veneration is given specifically due to the powers/nature the deities have and the aspects of nature they control, such as the one I provide below. But of course, you picked one that you thought you could impose your own beliefs on.

god - any supernatural being worshiped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force

Most importantly, you have shown nothing more than what I sought in good faith to explain to you in my several posts, through illustrations of different types of beings and their equal standing as creatures in Christianity- human saints and angels in heaven.

You may have some score to settle with Christianity, as you surely sound like you do. That really is your business. i just wanted to explain to you genuine differences between Christianity and polytheistic vedas or super-beings and their standing with regards to men. I’m sure I have done that, if you’re honest you understand that difference now. The angels are brothers of men who stand equally before God in heaven and neither is god to the other, just different classes of creatures. The angels are not the mediators to the supreme being due to their super-beings as the vedas.

Peace

 

[catharina]

The quote I gave wasn’t from “ancient” Greece. It was from the early Church, quoted in The Catholic Encyclopedia:
Anastasius, Bishop of Theopolis (d. 609), who was a friend of St. Gregory and translated his “Regula pastoralis” into Greek, expresses himself in almost the same way and makes the distinction between proskynesis and latreia that became so famous in Iconoclast times: “We worship (proskynoumen) men and the holy angels; we do not adore (latreuomen) them. Moses says: Thou shalt worship thy God and Him only shalt thou adore. Behold, before the word ‘adore’ he puts ‘only’, but not before the word ‘worship’, because it is lawful to worship [creatures], since worship is only giving special honour (times emphasis), but it is not lawful to adore them nor by any means to give them prayers of adoration (proseuxasthai)”

Ancient Greek is the language in use.
Today the Greeks speak modern Greek.
Looking to restore the understandings in use then, is an improbable task.
More so, imagining that anyone will join you in a repudiation of the term
“polytheism” as it is used and understood around the world today is wishful thinking.

As MaryBeloved stated:
“it’s clear to me that Christianity can in no way be said to be polytheistic at all based on angels! It would be a fairer argument if we were accused of polytheism based on the Blessed Trinity who are all divine persons than angels-It would be most definitely false, but certainly more understandable than the angels.”

Hence an elimination of the word “polytheism” is totally unrealistic.
It is a word that clearly defines differences in various religions.

 

[Ahimsa]

Please see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural

Brother Ahimsa,

According to your very dishonest approach/mode of judgment, Even this criteria fails, because supernatural to us means beyond what is proper to nature and involves only God- To the angelic powers we ascribe the word preternatural, meaning above human nature but proper to the nature of the angels, below supernatural (proper to God’s nature).

Hi Marybeloved,

OK, if “supernatural” refers to that which is beyond all of creation, all of nature, then let’s look at how this affects the definition of “god” that you gave before:
A god: A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a
people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
Let’s modify this definition to make it consistent with the definition of supernatural that you just gave:

A god: A being of powers or attributes that transcend all of creation, all of nature, believed in and worshipped by a people…

Now, the only being that transcends all of creation, all of nature, would be the Ultimate Divine Being, or “God”.

If that is the case, then the “god” of your definition is actually the Ultimate Divine Being, in which case there can be only “One” such Ultimate Divine Being. What this also means is that “polytheism” becomes a word that doesn’t describe anything that exists, and no one is able to be a “polytheist”.

Most importantly, you have shown nothing more than what I sought in good faith to explain to you in my several posts, through illustrations of different types of beings and their equal standing as creatures in Christianity- human saints and angels in heaven.

I agree that human saints and Angels are “creatures” in Christian theology. That doesn’t take away from the fact that, according to the Church, “creatures” can indeed be “worshipped”. Are you disagreeing that Angels, according to the Church, are indeed “worshipped”?
Anastasius, Bishop of Theopolis (d. 609), who was a friend of St. Gregory and translated his “Regula pastoralis” into Greek, expresses himself in almost the same way and makes the distinction between proskynesis and latreia that became so famous in Iconoclast times: “We worship (proskynoumen) men and the holy angels; we do not adore (latreuomen) them. Moses says: Thou shalt worship thy God and Him only shalt thou adore. Behold, before the word ‘adore’ he puts ‘only’, but not before the word ‘worship’, because it is lawful to worship [creatures], since worship is only giving special honour (times emphasis), but it is not lawful to adore them nor by any means to give them prayers of adoration (proseuxasthai)”

 

[catharina]

Hi Marybeloved,

OK, if “supernatural” refers to that which is beyond all of creation, all of nature, then let’s look at how this affects the definition of “god” that you gave before:
A god: A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a
people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
Let’s modify this definition to make it consistent with the definition of supernatural that you just gave:

A god: A being of powers or attributes that transcend all of creation, all of nature, believed in and worshipped by a people…

Now, the only being that transcends all of creation, all of nature, would be the Ultimate Divine Being, or “God”.

If that is the case, then the “god” of your definition is actually the Ultimate Divine Being, in which case there can be only “One” such Ultimate Divine Being. What this also means is that “polytheism” becomes a word that doesn’t describe anything that exists, and no one is able to be a “polytheist”.

I agree that human saints and Angels are “creatures” in Christian theology. That doesn’t take away from the fact that, according to the Church, “creatures” can indeed be “worshipped”. Are you disagreeing that Angels, according to the Church, are indeed “worshipped”?
Anastasius, Bishop of Theopolis (d. 609), who was a friend of St. Gregory and translated his “Regula pastoralis” into Greek, expresses himself in almost the same way and makes the distinction between proskynesis and latreia that became so famous in Iconoclast times: “We worship (proskynoumen) men and the holy angels**; we do not adore (latreuomen**) them. Moses says: Thou shalt worship thy God and Him only shalt thou adore. Behold, before the word ‘adore’ he puts ‘only’, but not before the word ‘worship’, because it is lawful to worship [creatures], since worship is only giving special honour (times emphasis), but it is not lawful to adore them nor by any means to give them prayers of adoration (proseuxasthai)”

Time passes and usage changes.
What the bishop called worship.
we would call veneration today.

Despite usage of times past, today all can and do
accept that the word “worship” applies to only God.
The distinction exists now to insure that all understand
only God is due supreme reverence. Only God - worship,
adoration, supreme reverence, acknowledgment as the One Alone.

When I say “all” I’m referring to monotheists.

 

[Marybeloved]

Hi Marybeloved,

OK, if “supernatural” refers to that which is beyond all of creation, all of nature, then let’s look at how this affects the definition of “god” that you gave before:A god: A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a
people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
Let’s modify this definition to make it consistent with the definition of supernatural that you just gave:A god: A being of powers or attributes that transcend all of creation, all of nature, believed in and worshipped by a people…

Now, the only being that transcends all of creation, all of nature, would be the Ultimate Divine Being, or “God”.

If that is the case, then the “god” of your definition is actually the Ultimate Divine Being, in which case there can be only “One” such Ultimate Divine Being. What this also means is that “polytheism” becomes a word that doesn’t describe anything that exists, and no one is able to be a “polytheist”.

I agree that human saints and Angels are “creatures” in Christian theology. That doesn’t take away from the fact that, according to the Church, “creatures” can indeed be “worshipped”. Are you disagreeing that Angels, according to the Church, are indeed “worshipped”?Anastasius, Bishop of Theopolis (d. 609), who was a friend of St. Gregory and translated his “Regula pastoralis” into Greek, expresses himself in almost the same way and makes the distinction between proskynesis and latreia that became so famous in Iconoclast times: “We worship (proskynoumen) men and the holy angels**; we do not adore (latreuomen**) them. Moses says: Thou shalt worship thy God and Him only shalt thou adore. Behold, before the word ‘adore’ he puts ‘only’, but not before the word ‘worship’, because it is lawful to worship [creatures], since worship is only giving special honour (times emphasis), but it is not lawful to adore them nor by any means to give them prayers of adoration (proseuxasthai)”

Yes, I deny that they are worshiped in any sense that differs from our veneration of Blessed Teresa of Calcuta- Certainly. Regardless of what that word may have meant in the past, we know that it is used by most people today to mean what that article calls adoration, which polytheists give to all deities equally and we offer only to God. Like illustrated in this definition on wikipedia:

Worship is an act of religious devotion usually directed towards a deity.

That’s why the church in modern times prefers the word “veneration” with regard to the Blessed Virgin, Saints and Angels, to avoid dishonest polemicists like you.

And about supernatural, sorry, the argument doesn’t stand. With polytheists, who ascribe divinity to all gods, that definition is quite appropriate. To us, Divinity is just one being not several, and that’s why supernatural refers to him alone, to us.

 

[Ahimsa]

Yes, I deny that they are worshiped in any sense that differs from our veneration of Blessed Teresa of Calcuta- Certainly. Regardless of what that word may have meant in the past, we know that it is used by most people today to mean what that article calls adoration, which polytheists give to all deities equally and we offer only to God. Like illustrated in this definition on wikipedia:

Worship is an act of religious devotion usually directed towards a deity.

That’s why the church in modern times prefers the word “veneration” with regard to the Blessed Virgin, Saints and Angels, to avoid dishonest polemicists like you.

Hi Marybeloved,

Actually, “worship” is used in contemporary English to refer to either latreia or proskynesis, “adoration” or “veneration”. Both usages are common. From the OED:
Worship: Reverence or** veneration** paid to a being or power regarded as supernatural or divine; the action or practice of displaying this by appropriate acts, rites, or ceremonies.

So “worship” does, in modern terms, include veneration and reverence. But as long as you agree that “worship”, properly understood, is rightfully due to human saints and Angels, I think we will have reached an agreement.

And about supernatural, sorry, the argument doesn’t stand. With polytheists, who ascribe divinity to all gods, that definition is quite appropriate. To us, Divinity is just one being not several, and that’s why supernatural refers to him alone, to us.

So are you saying that the definition of “god” depends upon whether someone is a polytheist or a monotheist? For a polytheist, “god” is part of nature; but for a monotheist, “god” is beyond nature?

 

[Marybeloved]

I agree that human saints and Angels are “creatures” in Christian theology. That doesn’t take away from the fact that, according to the Church, “creatures” can indeed be “worshipped”.

Dear Ahimsa,

Again, you’re just engaging in dishonest polemics here, to my great disappointed. I was really looking forward to discussing Tolkien’s Myth and possible infuences in Shaivism, which I find fascinating.

I’ve explained a gazillion times now. It’s not just that angels are “creatures”, The angels are brothers to humans, equal in standing and veneration as you properly demonstrated, unlike the Vedas through whom Shiva is worshiped. They are not deities.

You say properly that this “worship” is given to creatures, which is true, and as explained by me a gazillion times and shown in your illustration of christian worship, these creatures are humans and angels, so you can repeat the false assertions till kingdom come- Angels (unlike Vedas) are equals to humans, not their deities.

Peace