Stats since Vatican II

[rkrispies]

So I posed this question on another thread, and received no substantive response (which may be my answer right there), so let me address is specifically now:

Many people trot out statistics on mass attendance, seminarians, schools and attendance, etc. to justify the position that immediately prior to Vatican II, the Church was at the absolute height of everything, and then it all went down hill. Inevitably, they post statistics for circa 1960 and again for circa 2000.

Are there statistics for prior to 1960? How about some normalized statistics – something like seminarians per parishioner?

A trend might be able to be seen with two points. Or more likely, you will miss something. These stats may not even exist, but it’s possible they do and would be something to at least supplement arguments by one side or the other. Anyone?

Chris

 

[JustaServant]

I have no stats, but I was think about starting a thread 'was modernism in the Church prior to Vatican 2?" or some such title. If there was, how was it manifested in attendance and vocations?

 

[rkrispies]

One set of stats I did find in the ensuing hours here showed two things that are telling:

In the US,
Seminarians enrolled dropped from 8,325 in 1965 (last year of Vatican II) to 5,279 in 1975.
Total number of priests increased from 58,632 to 58,909 over the same period.

cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm

World-wide, the number of priests has remained relatively steady at ~400,000
Seminarians enrolled has increased from 33,731 in 1980 to 58,538 in 2005

(same site)

There are a lot of conflicting stats available, but here is a potential theory as to why we perceive such a crisis:

We look at it through US/European eyes. I’m American and that is where my experience is based. I see a decline in just about everything here, so I extrapolate to the world, even though it is probably not a valid comparison.

I would still like to see statistics from prior to 1960, though, before making any sort of conclusions.

Chris

 

[Spirithound]

You might try Catholic Hierarchy. They don’t give numbers of seminarians, but do give priests per Catholic population. Also, it seems the only way to look at it is diocese by diocese, but it’s a start.

 

[buffalo]

You might try Catholic Hierarchy. They don’t give numbers of seminarians, but do give priests per Catholic population. Also, it seems the only way to look at it is diocese by diocese, but it’s a start.

When you look at the numbers diocese by diocese pay attention to the number of perpetual adoration sites and if the seminary is orthodox or not.

 

[maurin]

I have no stats, but I was think about starting a thread 'was modernism in the Church prior to Vatican 2?" or some such title. If there was, how was it manifested in attendance and vocations?

actually, JustaServant, if you look back at the Encyclicals from the mid to late 19th Century to the early 20th, especially Pope Pius X’s syllabus, you will find that this storm has been a-brewin’ for no less than 100 years before the Council. Yes, the disease of modernism had manifested itself and has been attacking the Body for more than a century.

 

[JustaServant]

actually, JustaServant, if you look back at the Encyclicals from the mid to late 19th Century to the early 20th, especially Pope Pius X’s syllabus, you will find that this storm has been a-brewin’ for no less than 100 years before the Council. Yes, the disease of modernism had manifested itself and has been attacking the Body for more than a century.

I suspected as much.
The fundamentalist movement began in the early part of the 20th century as a reaction against the growing liberalism in mainline denominations. The early fundamentalist conferances included almost every Protestant denomination. What was happening in the Protestant world had to have had an effect upon the Catholic Church as well, It just didn’t start in the 1960s.

 

[maurin]

I suspected as much.
The fundamentalist movement began in the early part of the 20th century as a reaction against the growing liberalism in mainline denominations. The early fundamentalist conferances included almost every Protestant denomination. What was happening in the Protestant world had to have had an effect upon the Catholic Church as well, It just didn’t start in the 1960s.

sadly, some Catholics have wanted to be protestant for quite some time. They almost got their way, too. Thank God for all the Traditional Societies, Monastaries and Convents.

 

[Magnus467]

So I posed this question on another thread, and received no substantive response (which may be my answer right there), so let me address is specifically now:

Many people trot out statistics on mass attendance, seminarians, schools and attendance, etc. to justify the position that immediately prior to Vatican II, the Church was at the absolute height of everything, and then it all went down hill. Inevitably, they post statistics for circa 1960 and again for circa 2000.

Are there statistics for prior to 1960? How about some normalized statistics – something like seminarians per parishioner?

A trend might be able to be seen with two points. Or more likely, you will miss something. These stats may not even exist, but it’s possible they do and would be something to at least supplement arguments by one side or the other. Anyone?

Chris

I agree, no one has provided any logical correlation between V2 and these changes in question.

 

[PJM]

The PEW report which can be found on the net reflects some very dramatic declines in the numbers of practicing Catholics.From 1965 to 2007.

I do think there is a real decline in the number of priest, but that the need is tainted by the reduction of parishes that have been closed and or consolidated.

Additionally the decrease in the number of practicing Catholics has greatly reduced the demand.so there continues to be a less than clear picture of the true need. Also so many priest are working far beyond normal retirement, for which we need to be thankful and appreciate the effort being made.

 

[maurin]

I agree, no one has provided any logical correlation between V2 and these changes in question.

Actually you just may not be acquainted with the works.

“Iota Unum, A Study of Changes in the Catholic Church in the XXth Century,” by Romano Amerio, Translated from the Second Italian Edition by Fr. John P. Parsons, 1996 by Sarto House, KC, MO.

“The Devestated Vineyard” by Dietrich Von Hildebrandt–out of print? I haven’t been able to find it.

 

[giuseppeTO]

GALLUP POLL (1992): BELIEF IN DOGMA ON HOLY EUCHARIST

In January 1992, the St. Augustine Center Association sponsored a Gallup poll, called “A Gallup Survey of Catholics regarding Holy Communion.”
This poll, which included telephone interviews of 519 U.S. Catholics during the
period of December 10, 1991, to January 19, 1992, revealed that

ONLY 30% OF CATHOLICS BELIEVE THE DE-FIDE DOGMA ABOUT THE SACRAMENT OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST

namely, that at Communion they are really and truly receivng the Body and
Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, under the appearance of
bread and wine, which is known as the Real Presence.

70% OF CATHOLICS, BY IGNAORANCE OR CHOICE, NOW HOLD AN HERETICAL BELIEF IN THE HOLY EUCHARIST.

Specifically,

1) 29% of Catholics believe that when receiving Holy

Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, which symbolize the spirit and
teachings of Jesus Christ, and in so doing are expressing their attachment to
His Person and words. (This is the heresy of John Zwingli, who
taught the false doctrine that the Mass is merely a symbolic commemoration of
Christ’s death.)

2) 24% of Catholics believe that when receiving Holy

Communion, they are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, which has become
that because of their personal belief. (This is the heresy of John
Calvin, who taught the false doctrine that the faith of the recipient
transforms the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.)

3) 10% of Catholics believe that when receiving Holy

Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, in which Jesus Christ is really
and truly present. (This is the heresy of Martin Luther, who taught
the false doctrine known as “consubstantiation,” that the Body and Blood of
Christ coexist with the elements of bread and wine during the Eucharist.

4) 8% of Catholics hold some other non-Catholic belief.

5) 30% of Catholics believe that they are really and

truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ
under the appearance of Bread and Wine. This has always been the Church’s
dogma regarding the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

The Catholic Church teaches that Transubstantiation, that is, the

complete change of the bread and wine into the substance of Christ’s Body and
Blood, is effected by an ordained priest during the Consecration of the Mass,
so that only the appearance of bread and wine remain. The Sacramental presence
of Christ begins the moment of transubstantiation and remains as long as the
Eucharistic species exist. This doctrine goes back to Apostolic times, and its
basis is in Scripture and Tradition. The term “transubstantiation,” meaning
“change of substance,” was adopted by the dogmatic Fourth Lateran Ecumenical
Council in 1215 to help explain the doctrine of the Real Presence.

The poll results show a confusion on the part of Catholics

concerning one of the most fundamental dogma of the Church, a confusion that
has actually led them into (at least material) heresy.

The poll results were presented to the U.S. Bishops at their annual

conference of November 1992 at Washington, D.C. The bishops declined to take any specific resolution or course of action based on this report.

GALLUP POLLS: MASS ATTENDANCE IN THE UNITED STATES

According primarily to Gallup Polls in various years, Sunday Mass

attendance among Catholics in the United States has sunk by 400% since Vatican
II even though the population has incresed… When asked whether they had attended Mass within the past week, the following percentage of Catholics answered yes:

1958: 74%
1965: 71%, after the Mass was allowed to be said in the vulgar tongues
1968: 65%, after the very words of Consecration were changed
1969: 63%, when the Pauline Novus Ordo Missae was first announced
1970: 60%, when the Novus Ordo Missae was introduced
1971: 50%, after one year of exclusive use of the Novus Ordo Missae
1988: 48%
1993: 25%
1995: 22%
1999: 19%,
2001: 17%

U.S. BISHOPS STUDY

In 1981, the U.S. Bishops commissioned a study called “Converts,
Dropouts, Returnees.” It found that

22% OF CATHOLICS, SOME 5,600,000, STOPPED ATTENDING MASS BECAUSE OF THE CHANGES IN THE CHURCH.

An August 11, 1993 Gallup Poll, for instance, reported that 82% of the Catholics surveyed claimed one can use artificial birth control “and still be a good Catholic.”

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/nxuhin33gekzknj4nwnwpw.gif

 

[rkrispies]

Thanks maurin for the reading reccommendations. However, I’m a physical scientist. I want to see numbers. Somewhere, there have to be statistics for different things prior to 1960!

giuseppeTO:

According primarily to Gallup Polls in various years, Sunday Mass
attendance among Catholics in the United States has sunk by 400% since Vatican II

400% would mean that (starting at 74%), mass attendance now would be at something like -220%, which is of course impossible. Let’s use some proper math to not exaggerate. Mass attendance dropped from 74% to 17%, a drop of some 77%. Of course, the figure you posted also indicates a drop from 74% to ~45%, a drop of only 39%. Seems like there is a bit of disagreement between the polls.

I guess that until we see some hard numbers on things before about 1960, we can’t really make claims like “Prior to Vatican II, the Church was in its heyday” and the like. For all we know, the period just before circa 1960 may have been an exceptional period in terms of attendance, priests, seminarians, etc., but statistics aren’t readily available and therefore not well-known. This doesn’t mean that post-V2 is a horrible time, just that the Church may be returning to some equilibrium. Just a thought to ponder.

Chris

 

[Thomas58]

These statistics are from the book: “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II” (113 pages) by Kenneth C. Jones.

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

**Religious Orders. **For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven.

The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones’ statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

**Attendance at Mass. **A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

This article is taken from townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/pb20021211.shtml

Thomas

 

[Lost_Found]

If you ask me the Church is in a much better position now than thirty years ago, in North America. (Of course I’m speaking pastorally, and not doctrine-wise, which has never changed since Jesus’ time)
It’s tricky with stats - I remember at the end of Mass in the seventies, downtown they needed a number of police officers to direct traffic, there were that many people…It sure didn’t look like a crisis…Yet there were problems beneath the surface…So, appearances are deceiving…And now it’s just the opposite… the Holy Spirit is working overtime I tell you…It’s okay, I know the ending, God wins…

 

[rkrispies]

These statistics are from the book: “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II” (113 pages) by Kenneth C. Jones.

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

. . .

This article is taken from townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/pb20021211.shtml

Thomas

Finally! Something before 1960! Thanks Thomas!

It occurs to me though, that half of 58,000 is 29,000, or about 10% less than the number of priests we will expect to have in another decade.

Chris

 

[pnewton]

I agree, no one has provided any logical correlation between V2 and these changes in question.

That is because there is no way to know if there is a correlation, or if there is, which way the correlation should be. For example, the above graph show the decline in attendance (in the U.S.)that started well before Vatican II. I think several factors argue against a causitive relationship.

1. The declines listed are given for the U.S. almost exclusively and are not consistent throughout the world.
2. The declines (in real numbers, not percentages) are consistent in other Christian denominations in the U.S. For example, the actual number of Catholics in the U.S. is up only for Catholics and Baptists.

Statistics are too easily flawed to be of much use. In the example of number 2, the numbers do not account for the immigration of Catholics from south of the border, although they are not as Catholic as many think. Also, the Gallop poll in its use of percentages does not account for the major difference in what constitutes a Catholic. No one is born a Baptist or independent Christian. Yet many are born Catholics and do little more that carry the label and drop by the Church at time for Sacraments.

People that post statistics here are seldom scientists or statisticians. Instead, they posts those that support them and ignore those that do not. More often than not, the polsters also fail to use any blind method and seek the answers they desire, thus assuring the results they want. Therefore, statistics are sort of a Rorsharch test in which we see what we want.

 

[Thomas58]

1. The declines listed are given for the U.S. almost exclusively and **are not consistent throughout the world. **
2. The declines (in real numbers, not percentages) are consistent in other Christian denominations in the U.S. For example, the actual number of Catholics in the U.S. is up only for Catholics and Baptists.

What are your sources for this information? I have read from various sources that the declines seen in the US after Vatican II also occurred in Europe and that the only areas where the Catholic Church are actually growing now are in Africa and South America.

The SSPX claims that on any given Sunday, in France for instance, that there are more people in the pews of their churches than that of the Novus Ordo churches.

It seems that most in here deny any cause and effect with regard to the implementation of the changes that Vatican II brought about and the almost immediate decline in numbers associated with the health of the Catholic Church. I’m not saying that other factors are not relevant, but to deny the obvious seems naive.

Thomas

 

[pnewton]

What are your sources for this information? I have read from various sources that the declines seen in the US after Vatican II also occurred in Europe and that the only areas where the Catholic Church are actually growing now are in Africa and South America.

If memory serves correct, that one came from the Vatican website. Yes, Europe and America declined. Asia was stable and Africa was growing. I do not know where number two came from , but it was a thread topic this year.

…but to deny the obvious seems naive.

Calling one’s ideas “obvious” begs the question and demonstrates the point I was making.

Has the Church ever made a statement to the effect that they are in decline as a result of Vatican II? I know of no priest that sees this connection. I know those who disagree with Vatican II believe it, but that is to be expected. I do not think it is a mainstream Catholic opinion.

 

[PJM]

GALLUP POLL (1992): BELIEF IN DOGMA ON HOLY EUCHARIST

In January 1992, the St. Augustine Center Association sponsored a Gallup poll, called “A Gallup Survey of Catholics regarding Holy Communion.”
This poll, which included telephone interviews of 519 U.S. Catholics during the
period of December 10, 1991, to January 19, 1992, revealed that

ONLY 30% OF CATHOLICS BELIEVE THE DE-FIDE DOGMA ABOUT THE SACRAMENT OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST

namely, that at Communion they are really and truly receivng the Body and
Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, under the appearance of
bread and wine, which is known as the Real Presence.

70% OF CATHOLICS, BY IGNAORANCE OR CHOICE, NOW HOLD AN HERETICAL BELIEF IN THE HOLY EUCHARIST.

Specifically,

1) 29% of Catholics believe that when receiving Holy

Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, which symbolize the spirit and
teachings of Jesus Christ, and in so doing are expressing their attachment to
His Person and words. (This is the heresy of John Zwingli, who
taught the false doctrine that the Mass is merely a symbolic commemoration of
Christ’s death.)

2) 24% of Catholics believe that when receiving Holy

Communion, they are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, which has become
that because of their personal belief. (This is the heresy of John
Calvin, who taught the false doctrine that the faith of the recipient
transforms the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.)

3) 10% of Catholics believe that when receiving Holy

Communion, they are receiving bread and wine, in which Jesus Christ is really
and truly present. (This is the heresy of Martin Luther, who taught
the false doctrine known as “consubstantiation,” that the Body and Blood of
Christ coexist with the elements of bread and wine during the Eucharist.

4) 8% of Catholics hold some other non-Catholic belief.

5) 30% of Catholics believe that they are really and

truly receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ
under the appearance of Bread and Wine. This has always been the Church’s
dogma regarding the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

The Catholic Church teaches that Transubstantiation, that is, the

complete change of the bread and wine into the substance of Christ’s Body and
Blood, is effected by an ordained priest during the Consecration of the Mass,
so that only the appearance of bread and wine remain. The Sacramental presence
of Christ begins the moment of transubstantiation and remains as long as the
Eucharistic species exist. This doctrine goes back to Apostolic times, and its
basis is in Scripture and Tradition. The term “transubstantiation,” meaning
“change of substance,” was adopted by the dogmatic Fourth Lateran Ecumenical
Council in 1215 to help explain the doctrine of the Real Presence.

The poll results show a confusion on the part of Catholics

concerning one of the most fundamental dogma of the Church, a confusion that
has actually led them into (at least material) heresy.

The poll results were presented to the U.S. Bishops at their annual

conference of November 1992 at Washington, D.C. The bishops declined to take any specific resolution or course of action based on this report.

GALLUP POLLS: MASS ATTENDANCE IN THE UNITED STATES

According primarily to Gallup Polls in various years, Sunday Mass

attendance among Catholics in the United States has sunk by 400% since Vatican
II even though the population has incresed… When asked whether they had attended Mass within the past week, the following percentage of Catholics answered yes:

1958: 74%
1965: 71%, after the Mass was allowed to be said in the vulgar tongues
1968: 65%, after the very words of Consecration were changed
1969: 63%, when the Pauline Novus Ordo Missae was first announced
1970: 60%, when the Novus Ordo Missae was introduced
1971: 50%, after one year of exclusive use of the Novus Ordo Missae
1988: 48%
1993: 25%
1995: 22%
1999: 19%,
2001: 17%

U.S. BISHOPS STUDY

In 1981, the U.S. Bishops commissioned a study called “Converts,
Dropouts, Returnees.” It found that

22% OF CATHOLICS, SOME 5,600,000, STOPPED ATTENDING MASS BECAUSE OF THE CHANGES IN THE CHURCH.

An August 11, 1993 Gallup Poll, for instance, reported that 82% of the Catholics surveyed claimed one can use artificial birth control “and still be a good Catholic.”

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com...roduction/Cms/POLL/nxuhin33gekzknj4nwnwpw.gif

Dear God have mercy on us!