statue bowing

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Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves,
and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it.
I am the LORD your God. Lev 26:1

Has the Lord Most High changed to accommodate what you think is correct?
It is obvious to me that you have no idea what an idol is.
Here is the definition
an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

Not all statues are idols. They are only idols if one thinks they are a god and are worshiped.
Who decides what an idol is, the Lord Most High or you?
 
Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it.
I am the LORD your God. Lev 26:1
I’ll try to put a little more context in for the discussion.

LEVITICUS 26:1-3, 9, 46 1 "You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the LORD your God. 2 You shall keep my sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD. 3 "If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them, . . . . 9 And I will have regard for you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and will confirm my covenant with you. . . . . . 46 These are the statutes and ordinances and laws which the LORD made between him and the people of Israel on Mount Sinai by Moses.
First of all, I have never heard a Catholic teach: “DO go out and make IDOLS guys”.

I have also never heard a Catholic teach: “Please DO make a carved stone in your land to bow down to it.”

Nobody here is trying to nullify the commandments of God, most especially the Catholic Church.

I am glad you pointed out “God doesn’t change”. This will be useful to help understand what the Church teaches and doesn’t teach.

Are ALL graven images such as statues, pictures, etc. . . . . idols?

Q: Are all images and pillars “idols”?

a. Any and all images are idols
b. All pillars are idols.
c. a and b
d. Images and pillars CAN BE misused and thus idols . . . . but . . . . there CAN BE legitimate use of images and pillars that are NOT idolatrous too.
The problem is, if you take all bowing or obeisance toward people or toward graven images, etc. to equal latria, you distort the meaning of God’s commandment. A hockey player who venerates the Stanley Cup is NOT committing idolatry simply because he is showing his joy over what that cup represents (a hockey championship).

If you are not trying to say here that obeisance isn’t necessarily worship, you and I will agree.

But if you are going to try to posit that all obeisance is NECESSARILY latria, I am going to have to take issue with that unbiblical position
 
Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves,
and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it.
I am the LORD your God. Lev 26:1

Has the Lord Most High changed to accommodate what you think is correct?

Who decides what an idol is, the Lord Most High or you?
He already decided. We make it by our actions.
 
Let’s say I was married and kissed my husband good night every night. He goes away, maybe he’s in the army and is away for a long time. Let’s say I am missing him terribly every day, and at bedtime I take his photo and give it a kiss and say Goodnight honey.

Do you think that if my husband could see me doing that, how do you think he would react? Wouldn’t he just melt? Wouldn’t his heart ache to be with me and to receive that kiss in person? Wouldn’t he have compassion on the suffering that our separation was bringing?

To say that I was committing idolatry by kissing a photo of my husband would be like saying I couldn’t tell the difference between my husband and his photo. Nonsense. If he was here in person, do you think I would continue kissing his photo? Of course not. This is how it is with statues, they will do until one day we can meet again in person. Then there will be joy!
 
Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves,
and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it.
I am the LORD your God. Lev 26:1

Has the Lord Most High changed to accommodate what you think is correct?
Your worry would be valid if Catholics worshiped the saints, which we do not. Note that Lev. quote clearly infers worship not reverence. We revere the Saints as examples to foster our personal piety. We keep our worship, and always have, to the Lord God in the Trinity.
 
question 1 : do Catholics bow to statues? I know we genuflect entering and leaving the church but I didn’t know where or not this was toward a statue or if this would be considered a bow.

Question 2 : is it wrong to bow to a statue as an act of veneration?
Do Catholics bow to statues? NO. We bow to the person that the statue represents.

is it wrong to bow to a statue as an act of veneration? YES. But you may bow to the person that the statue represents.

If you worship the statue hoping that it will answer your prayers, you are an idolater.

If you pray to the person that the statue represents, then you are fine.

You do keep pictures of your parents on your wall. You do kiss or bow in front of the these pictures. What’s wrong with that?

God commanded Moses to make statues of angels to place on the Ark of the Covenant. So was God the first idolater?
 
The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed “by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them” (374).

“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).
 
I figured that this would be a good place to ask this question.

I’ve been having issues with Leviticus 26:1
“You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the LORD your God.

i know that we don’t worship idols…

but some protestants make the claim that it specifically says not to bow to “figured stone”

question 1 : do Catholics bow to statues? I know we genuflect entering and leaving the church but I didn’t know where or not this was toward a statue or if this would be considered a bow.

Question 2 : is it wrong to bow to a statue as an act of veneration?

Thank you for your help.
Protestants confuse the concept of icon, with the idol which is spoken about in Leviticus 26:1. (They are both 4 letters and they both have the same vowels but that is as far as the similarity goes). I know that to be true because I was a protestant. But as a protestant I had icons, photos, of my grand-parents framed on my wall, grandparents who died before I was born even, but when I walk past them I would stop, and see them through that icon and take a moment to honor and respect them.

Am I guilty of ancestry worship? Am I guilty of icon worship? Am I guilty of idolatry?

If I was a consistent protestant, and judged me by my judgment of Catholic, I would have to say yes.
 
The Lord God also commanded Moses to form a bronze serpent and mount it on a pole. (Would this not be misconstrued as graven image today?) The Hebrews were to look upon it and they would be healed of their serpent bites. The bronze serpent was only destroyed later by Hezekiah when the people began to worship it and burn incense to it, not to the God who had given it its healing power.

If we, Catholics, worshiped our statues as the Israelites came to worship the bronze serpent than we would, indeed, be in the wrong. The thing is, we don’t worship statutes. We don’t even worship what most of them represent - the saints. We respect them, we venerate them, we do not worship them. We do worship the Lord Jesus Christ represented by the crucifix and we worship Him truly present in the Eucharist, reserved in the Tabernacle.
 
Thank you for your reply.

Genuflecting is to the tabernacle, makes since to me because even the earliest Christians believed in the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
If you had an audience with the Queen of England and her whole family bowing is required, and they are Anglicans, and humans.
 
Protestants confuse the concept of icon, with the idol which is spoken about in Leviticus 26:1. (They are both 4 letters and they both have the same vowels but that is as far as the similarity goes). I know that to be true because I was a protestant. But as a protestant I had icons, photos, of my grand-parents framed on my wall, grandparents who died before I was born even, but when I walk past them I would stop, and see them through that icon and take a moment to honor and respect them.

Am I guilty of ancestry worship? Am I guilty of icon worship? Am I guilty of idolatry?

If I was a consistent protestant, and judged me by my judgment of Catholic, I would have to say yes.
Thank you for helping me understand.

I am a convert as well.
I love the Catholic Faith, and I plan on being Catholic for the rest of my life.

All of the doctrines in the catholic church are put together really well, one just has to dig into them to understand them well. But this is one issue that is rather hard to dig into.

I like being able to give people a 100% crystal clear answer.
for example when someone asks me about purgatory. I can explain that logically Christianity comes From Judaism right? Why does the Jewish faith believe in a Purifying state in the afterlife during which there sins are purified? More importantly why isn’t this in there bible? Catholics have Sacred Tradition in a similar way that Jews have The written oral tradition…
 
Idolatry would be like the golden calf that was mentioned in the Old Testament. Statues are not seen as actually being a person (like how the calf was worshipped because they believed IT to be God/a god) so it can’t be idolatry. Statues are like looking at a photo or something - that photo isn’t the actual person, but we keep photos in our homes because they’re a reminder of the person/important times in life. Even if we pay respect to the person by actions like bowing, lighting candles, etc it is a respect for the holiness of the person, and the relationship we have with them through our Lord Jesus. 🙂
 
Thank you for helping me understand.

I am a convert as well.
I love the Catholic Faith, and I plan on being Catholic for the rest of my life.

All of the doctrines in the catholic church are put together really well, one just has to dig into them to understand them well. But this is one issue that is rather hard to dig into.

I like being able to give people a 100% crystal clear answer.
for example when someone asks me about purgatory. I can explain that logically Christianity comes From Judaism right? Why does the Jewish faith believe in a Purifying state in the afterlife during which there sins are purified? More importantly why isn’t this in there bible? Catholics have Sacred Tradition in a similar way that Jews have The written oral tradition…
The word Purgatory does not appear in the Bible, but the concept of it clearly does. Let us be clear that the Church and the Bible are fully in accordance with each other. Everything about the traditions of the Church can be backed up by the scriptures and everything about the Bible is reflected in the traditions of the Church.

This is off the original topic but Purgatory is clearly defined:

Matthew 5:48
48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Hebrews 12:14
14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

James 3:2
2 for we all fall short in many respects. If anyone does not fall short in speech, he is a perfect man, able to bridle his whole body also.

Revelation 21:27
27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any[one] who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

1 John 5:16-17
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
**
James 1:14-15**
14 Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.

2 Samual 12:13-14
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: “For his part, the LORD has removed your sin. You shall not die, 14 but since you have utterly spurned the LORD by this deed, the child born to you will surely die.”

Matthew 5:26
26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 12:32
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 12:36
36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak.

2 Maccabees 12:44-46
44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

1 Corinthians 3:15
15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. 19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, 20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead that, though condemned in the flesh in human estimation, they might live in the spirit in the estimation of God.

2 Timothy 1:16-18
16 May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. 18 May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.

1 Corinthians 15-29-30
29 Otherwise, what will people accomplish by having themselves baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they having themselves baptized for them? 30 Moreover, why are we endangering ourselves all the time?

It’s pretty clear that we will be purified and made perfect before we will enter into heaven…

.
 
question 1 : do Catholics bow to statues?
Question 2 : is it wrong to bow to a statue as an act of veneration?
There’s a lot going on here so first let us be clear about what God was speaking of when he said not to make idols. There is a big difference between idols and statues and even after God commanded that we not make idols, he went on to instruct us in the making of all kinds of statues and images…

He was specifically riling against the Hebrews who had made the golden calf to explicitly worship instead of God.

Consider these:

Exodus 25:18-19
18 Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the cover; 19 make one cherub at one end, and the other at the other end, of one piece with the cover, at each end.

Numbers 21:8-9
8 and the LORD said to Moses: Make a seraph and mount it on a pole, and everyone who has been bitten will look at it and recover. 9 Accordingly Moses made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever the serpent bit someone, the person looked at the bronze serpent and recovered.

1 Kings 6:23-29
23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim, each ten cubits high, made of pine. 24 Each wing of a cherub was five cubits so that the span from wing tip to wing tip was ten cubits. 25 The second cherub was also ten cubits: the two cherubim were identical in size and shape; 26 the first cherub was ten cubits high, and so was the second. 27 He placed the cherubim in the inmost part of the house; the wings of the cherubim were spread wide, so that one wing of the first touched the side wall and the wing of the second touched the other wall; the wings pointing to the middle of the room touched each other. 28 He overlaid the cherubim with gold. 29 The walls of the house on all sides of both the inner and the outer rooms had carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers.

1 Kings 7:25-45
25 This rested on twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east, with their haunches all toward the center; upon them was set the sea. 26 It was a handbreadth thick, and its brim resembled that of a cup, being lily-shaped. Its capacity was two thousand baths.

27 He also made ten stands of bronze, each four cubits long, four wide, and three high. 28 When these stands were constructed, panels were set within the framework. 29 On the panels within the frames there were lions, oxen, and cherubim; and on the frames likewise, above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths in hammered relief. 30 Each stand had four bronze wheels and bronze axles. The four legs of each stand had cast braces, which were under the basin; they had wreaths on each side. 31 The mouth of the basin was inside, and a cubit above, the crown, whose opening was round, made like a receptacle, a cubit and a half in depth. There was carved work at the opening, on panels that were square, not circular. 32 The four wheels were below the paneling, and the axletrees of the wheels and the stand were of one piece. Each wheel was a cubit and a half high. 33 The wheels were constructed like chariot wheels; their axletrees, rims, spokes, and hubs were all cast. 34 The four braces reached the four corners of each stand, and formed part of the stand.

35 At the top of the stand there was a raised collar half a cubit high, and the handles and panels on top of the stand formed part of it. 36 On the flat ends of the handles and on the panels, wherever there was a bare space, cherubim, lions, and palm trees were carved, as well as wreaths all around. 37 This was how he made the ten stands, all of the same casting, the same size, the same shape. 38 He made ten bronze basins, each four cubits in diameter with a capacity of forty baths, one basin atop each of the ten stands. 39 He placed the stands, five on the south side of the house and five on the north. The sea he placed off to the southeast from the south side of the house.

40 When Hiram had made the pots, shovels, and bowls, he finished all his work for King Solomon in the house of the LORD: 41 two columns; two nodes for the capitals on top of the columns; two pieces of netting covering the two nodes for the capitals on top of the columns; 42 four hundred pomegranates in double rows on both pieces of netting that covered the two nodes of the capitals on top of the columns; 43 ten stands; ten basins on the stands; 44 one sea; twelve oxen supporting the sea; 45 pots, shovels, and bowls. All these articles which Hiram made for King Solomon in the house of the LORD were of burnished bronze.

And read this: Do Catholics Worship Statues? A tract from the Catholic Answers web site.

When we kneel before a statue of Mary, we kneel before a representation of the Queen of Heaven, not in supplication or worship of her, but to put us into a prayerful state in order to bring our petitions to her with respect and dignity. The same goes for representations of the saints. It is not to them that we kneel, but for ourselves to become in a prayerful state.

Many of us kneel by the bedside to say our evening prayers. This certainly does not mean we are worshiping the bed.

The problem with the literalistic interpretation of the Bible is that it is generally hypocritical. If you take this verse about idols and statues literally, then why not the one about selling your daughter into slavery, or killing your brother because he refuses to believe?

We are not interpreting the Bible on an individual basis, but are abiding by the interpretations of the Church, “the pillar and foundation of the truth”. Interpreting individually can be dangerous road to follow.
 
My son prays at night. He bows down by his bed side and says some prayers. He has a picture of Jesus nearby.

If anybody wants to claim that he is worshiping his bed or a picture you are free to do so I guess.

The idols that we hear about in scripture were Pagan Gods. Monotheism had not yet been established and people felt there were Gods in control of everything. There were Gods for the doorway of your house, to keep it standing, Gods for a trip somewhere that you had to pray to in a certain way to return safely. Gods for every kind of ailment, Gods of every tree, Gods of every pond. Big difference. Please do not insult us with these old ignorant observation. It makes you look quite silly. You only embarrass yourselves.
 
So… I think I have found an fairly acceptable answer to my question…
that leaves my about 90% certain we are good. so if possible I would like some feed back on my understanding.

The issue that I was having was not that Catholics worship idols… We clearly don’t. And I think that we would know if we did…

What makes Leviticus 26:1 unique is that it explicitly states that
"you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the LORD your God. "

someone interpreting the bible can say “see it is a sin even if you don’t think that the statue is an idol”
the issue is that the word behind the word bow is the Hebrew word shachah which is actually translated more times to worship than bow.

in translations like
Contemporary English Version
GOD’S WORD Translation
Good News Translation
Lexham English Bible
the Living Bible
The Message
Names of God Bible
New American Bible (Revised Edition)
New Living Translation (NLT)
New Revised Standard Version
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)
Wycliffe Bible

shachah is translated as worship or conveys bowing with worship…

So no i don’t believe bowing to a statue is a sin, unless it is bowing with the intent of worshiping the statue.

let me know what you think 🙂

I noticed that the following bible translations were not literal translations

regardless here are my sources for the word shachah

truthortradition.com/articles/what-is-true-biblical-worship

blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7812&Version=KJV

actually the
New Revised Standard Version is a formal equivalence translation which appears to be a type of literal translation.

this is another good website on this topic

orthodoxconvert.info/Q-A.php?c=Icons-Is%20Venerating%20Icons%20Idolatry
 
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