Statue of Mary - Is it allowed?

[THurifer2]

Contrary to what others have said, a statue of Mary near the altar during mass IS distracting. How can it not be?

Our thoughts during the mass should be focused on the bread and wine becoming the Eucharist - the sacrifice that is taking place, not on devotions to Mary and saints.

Now you really got me confused PAIX!

I thought it was all about US? Make up your mind!

I guess you cannot use the “community” argument in this case because then your above statement wouldn’t work. SOmtimes being anti tradition can be tough…cant it. Your above response was very protestant sounding.

 

[THurifer2]

So why not a clown mass?

The only thing that will take your mind off the mass is the thing that you ALLOW to …

I am beginning to understand your views PAIX based on some posts I have been reading.

Now if I may ask you… In June your wrote:

If there is said to exist “far left” publications (Think “Call to Action”, etc), then Adoramus is FAR FAR FAR FRINGE Right. To the Right of the Vatican. That’s how “right”.
Based on your remarks I underlined…what is one to think of your statement and your “attitude” regarding the “rightness” of the Vatican?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Now you really got me confused PAIX!

I thought it was all about US? Make up your mind!

I guess you cannot use the “community” argument in this case because then your above statement wouldn’t work. SOmtimes being anti tradition can be tough…cant it. Your above response was very protestant sounding.

I never said that the mass is “all about us”. That is usually an accusation made by people who think the mass is about devotion when the communal nature of the mass is explained to them.

I’m not sure what “anti-tradition” is. I’m not sure what an “orthodox traditional Catholic” is. I’m not sure what a “liberal Catholic” is.

I am Catholic and I strive to follow the Church on all things. Period. Where there seems to be disagreement is on what the Church really says on some things.

Yes the mass is a communal meal. Yes the mass is a sacrifice. It is not either or, but both/and. Yes, during the reception of the Eucharist we should all be singing and maintaining a common posture; during the times of the mass that call for the people to pray silently or to reflect, however, that is what we should be doing. The fact is, a statue of Mary front and center does nothing to align our thoughts on the Eucharist - on ANY FACET of the Eucharist, whether it be communal meal and becoming what we receive or on the sacrifice on the altar.

As for the protestants, I’m not sure why you seem to align that word with evil. Remember, not long after the reformation came the counter-reformation - where the Church said “they kind of had a few valid points”.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I am beginning to understand your views PAIX based on some posts I have been reading.

Now if I may ask you… In June your wrote:

If there is said to exist “far left” publications (Think “Call to Action”, etc), then Adoramus is FAR FAR FAR FRINGE Right. To the Right of the Vatican. That’s how “right”.
Based on your remarks I underlined…what is one to think of your statement and your “attitude” regarding the “rightness” of the Vatican?

If you took - and continue to take - the time to search all my past posts, you will see that I actually reject terms like “right and left”, “conservative and liberal”, etc in regards to the Church. However, for the purposes of talking to people on these forums about their views, I often do use the venacular being spoken.

To indulge your point of view: I’m sure you see the Vatican as being ultimately “right wing”. That’s why you label yourself a “conservative” and claim to be in line with the Vatican. You label those you don’t agree with as “liberal”, or “left”. The point that I was making in the above post was that if Call to Action, in your paradigm, is “left”, then Adoramus is SO far “right”, that they are to the “right” of the Vatican.

In other words, they take so called “conservative” notions so far, that they go even further in that direction than the Church goes.

Now, you want my opinion? Adoramus has problems in one direction just as Call to Action does in the other direction. Neither is 100% correct or in line with the Church.

 

[palmas85]

I never said that the mass is “all about us”. That is usually an accusation made by people who think the mass is about devotion when the communal nature of the mass is explained to them.

I’m not sure what “anti-tradition” is. I’m not sure what an “orthodox traditional Catholic” is. I’m not sure what a “liberal Catholic” is.

I am Catholic and I strive to follow the Church on all things. Period. Where there seems to be disagreement is on what the Church really says on some things.

Yes the mass is a communal meal. Yes the mass is a sacrifice. It is not either or, but both/and. Yes, during the reception of the Eucharist we should all be singing and maintaining a common posture; during the times of the mass that call for the people to pray silently or to reflect, however, that is what we should be doing. The fact is, a statue of Mary front and center does nothing to align our thoughts on the Eucharist - on ANY FACET of the Eucharist, whether it be communal meal and becoming what we receive or on the sacrifice on the altar.

As for the protestants, I’m not sure why you seem to align that word with evil. Remember, not long after the reformation came the counter-reformation - where the Church said “they kind of had a few valid points”.

Yes, and the Church in Her wisdom corrected those faults. So, if those faults were the **true **reasons behind the Protestant defection from the Church, they should have come home, right? They did not return then, they have not returned as of now, nor do I have any real expectation that they ever will, given how most of them really feel about Catholicism.

And the plain obvious truth is that while a statue of the Blessed Mother does nothing to center the mind on the Sacrifice of the Mass, it equally does absolutely nothing to detract from that same sacrifice. As far as I can see it, the only reason to remove such a statue is so that the Mass itself does not appear offensive to Protestant sensibilities. No one, who is a true Catholic would deny the importance of the Blessed Mother in the scheme of things nor of Her position in the theology of the Church.

Far too many people in their zeal to accomodate others tend to ignore or denigrate many aspects of the faith that our separated brethren find offensive. Sorry to say that, but it is true,

I’m not saying that is the case with you, but it is with many.

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks for all the replies, they’ve been very informative and comforting.

Does it make a difference if my parish is located in Canada? And is the GIRM relevant in Canada?

Norms are different in Canada - for example, we only kneel during the Consecration itself (from the end of the Sanctus (“Holy Holy Holy”) until the Memorial Acclamation (“Let us proclaim the mystery of faith,”) - in the United States, they kneel right up until the Great Amen.

In Canada, it is traditional to have a statue or icon of Mary to the north of the Altar, and a matching statue or icon of Joseph to the south of the Altar, assuming the Altar is on the east wall of the Church. We normally don’t put either one in the Sanctuary itself, though. This doesn’t mean that the Sanctuary needs to be bare, though - it can have a Crucifix, a baldaccino, and stained glass windows - and there is no law that states that the Sanctuary furnishings have to be ugly, either - the Tabernacle, the servers’ chairs, the Presider’s chair, the credence table, and even the Altar itself can be beautiful, in and of themselves. Seasonal decorations can also be placed in such a way that they don’t interfere with where people have to walk - as long as they aren’t on the Altar itself, they can surround the front of it, or be below it.

 

[THurifer2]

In other words, they take so called “conservative” notions so far, that they go even further in that direction than the Church goes.

What is that supposed to mean…Further in “that direction” than the church goes? Would that direction be right? Do you think the Church is to the right? Gee… I thought the church would be center which is where the truth resides. SUch language indicates to me that you think the church is to the right of center…which would place Her to the right of the truth?

As far as a Marian Statue would go near the Altar is perfectly OK from a theolgical standpoint…even though you may cringe at the notion of “sacrifice” Mary was indeed there at Calvary…which is the Core reason why there is an Altar and not a campfire ring ffor happy clappy time.

Soooo placing a statue of Mary near the altar would be historically correct as well SInce she was there at the Sacrifice…which is I repeat what the Mass is…you know Paix, for centuries right up until the last 40 years it was called THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS Now it seems as though many desire to decaptiate that notion of worship and replace it with a campfire celebration.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

What is that supposed to mean…Further in “that direction” than the church goes? Would that direction be right? Do you think the Church is to the right? Gee… I thought the church would be center which is where the truth resides. SUch language indicates to me that you think the church is to the right of center…which would place Her to the right of the truth?

It is you and many others here who prefer to use the terms “conservative vs. liberal”, “orthodox”, “left vs. right”, etc. I see the CHURCH. I was simply using your language and debating you on your own terms.

As far as a Marian Statue would go near the Altar is perfectly OK from a theolgical standpoint…even though you may cringe at the notion of “sacrifice” Mary was indeed there at Calvary…which is the Core reason why there is an Altar and not a campfire ring ffor happy clappy time.

If you look back to previous posts you will see many times that I have used the word “sacrifice” in relation to the mass. Theologically, is a Marian statue near the altar wrong? No. Is it unwise? I believe so - for the reasons in this conversation I have already articulated.

Soooo placing a statue of Mary near the altar would be historically correct as well SInce she was there at the Sacrifice. Mass isn’t a historical reenactment. It’s something occurring right now, in that place and in our own time…which is I repeat what the Mass is…you know Paix, for centuries right up until the last 40 years it was called THE HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS Now it seems as though many desire to decaptiate that notion of worship and replace it with a campfire celebration.

Do you really even have any idea what I stand for? You seem to believe that you do; but anyone I work with in my parish would die laughing if you told them that I treat mass as a “campfire celebration”.

 

[THurifer2]

Do you really even have any idea what I stand for? You seem to believe that you do; but anyone I work with in my parish would die laughing if you told them that I treat mass as a “campfire celebration”.

How would anyone know how your treat the Mass unless you advertised it as somthing that you have the authority to treat a certain way? I am wondering if some of us here are emboldened by things like weekend long liturgy courses.

but since you didn’t answer any of my quesitons perhaps we should revert back to the topic…which is fact that it is OK to for a parish to place a Marian statue next to or near the altar…and it is also FACT that many modernists who toe the line of dissent have animosity towards things “Marian” likely becuase it makes them feel uncomfortable with all that “Catholicity” that comes with it.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Indications are there of what you stand for…you also like to use the word “I” in many of your posts… but since you didn’t answer any of my quesitons perhaps we should revert back to the topic…which is fact that it is OK to for a parish to place a Marian statue next to or near the altar…and it is also FACT that many modernists who toe the line of dissent have animosity towards things “Marian” likely becuase it makes them feel uncomfortable with all that “Catholicity” that comes with it.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

How would anyone know how your treat the Mass unless you advertised it as somthing that you have the authority to treat a certain way? I am wondering if some of us here are emboldened by things like weekend long liturgy courses. You have now been corrected on this THREE (3) TIMES! Not a weekend; a week long, at over 8 hours a day. Do you realize that often doctors do medical procedures after TWO DAY LONG COURSES? Of course you didn’t.

but since you didn’t answer any of my quesitons perhaps we should revert back to the topic…which is fact that it is OK to for a parish to place a Marian statue next to or near the altar…and it is also FACT that many modernists who toe the line of dissent have animosity towards things “Marian” likely becuase it makes them feel uncomfortable with all that “Catholicity” that comes with it.

What authority do I have? The authority given to me by my pastor. You hate that. I love that you hate that.

By the way, what is a modernist? A new label for another kind of Catholic that I wasn’t aware of …

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

By the way, when I was in another field, it was standard to have two to three day long courses and seminars in one area - and that certified you to handle that area in your job.

This isn’t any different. Quit drinking the cool-aid.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

What authority do I have? The authority given to me by my pastor. You hate that. I love that you hate that.

By the way, what is a modernist? A new label for another kind of Catholic that I wasn’t aware of …

Liberal Catholic- usually associated with the modernists. Those who use the excuse of “in the spirit of V2”. Usually are not all that fond of the TLM

Conservative Catholic- Somewhere between Liberal/Modernist and Traditional. Levels can differ.

Traditional Catholic- Very fond of the TLM. Women usually veil in church. Rosary-toting, Communion-kneeling, Chant-loving kinda people.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

GENERAL NOTICE

Those who fail to maintain their position by good discussion need not resort to personal remarks or inferences about others in an attempt to substitute “words” for substantive content.

Please refrain from interrupting reasoned conversation and debate with the use of this tactic.

Now back to the conversation…and please stay with the content of posts rather than individual posters.

 

[THurifer2]

The OP saw a statue near the Altar on EWTN…and the question is if it is OK to do such a thing. The answer is yes. I am not a frequent watcher of EWTN but I have been to conferences and talked with MANY people who have shows on EWTN and ALL of them are ROMAN CATHOLIC to the core…The newtwork itself is totally and completely loyal to the Magesterium of the Roman Catholic church. If they are doing somthing be it statue placement, devotions etc. etc… you can place a good bet that it is perfectly OK to do. They have many many Theologians and Liturgical EXPERTS that know and follow the rules. if they are out of line it is going to be due to mistake and not dissent. An example would be the early days when the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was celebrated Novus Ordo style with the priest facing Ad Orentum… Bishop Foley (their Bishop) told them not to do it and they conformed IMMEDIATELY. Many people do not like EWTN because of its “Catholicity”

 

[Walking_Home]

The OP saw a statue near the Altar on EWTN…and the question is if it is OK to do such a thing. The answer is yes. I am not a frequent watcher of EWTN but I have been to conferences and talked with MANY people who have shows on EWTN and ALL of them are ROMAN CATHOLIC to the core…The newtwork itself is totally and completely loyal to the Magesterium of the Roman Catholic church. If they are doing somthing be it statue placement, devotions etc. etc… you can place a good bet that it is perfectly OK to do. They have many many Theologians and Liturgical EXPERTS that know and follow the rules. if they are out of line it is going to be due to mistake and not dissent. An example would be the early days when the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was celebrated Novus Ordo style with the priest facing Ad Orentum… Bishop Foley (their Bishop) told them not to do it and they conformed IMMEDIATELY. Many people do not like EWTN because of its “Catholicity”

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It may also give people the right view of how Mass should be offered vs. what the see happening in their own diocese. This would then promote the desire for the Mass as the Church intends–but this would be a threat for those who have had their way in manipulating it.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

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It may also give people the right view of how Mass should be offered vs. what the see happening in their own diocese. This would then promote the desire for the Mass as the Church intends–but this would be a threat for those who have had their way in manipulating it.

The problem is that something you see - be it on EWTN or in another church - may be ONE WAY, but not THE way.

A statue of Mary in the sacntuary: Obviously allowed, but reasonable people can debate the wisdom of it. Since it’s not MANDATED, I can’t be wrong for preferring against it. But what we have time and time again is people who watch EWTN and assume that because EWTN does something ALLOWABLE, even if not wise, than anyone who disagrees with it is somehow less than Catholic.

To the originial topic: I’m all for rosarys, statues of Mary, and devotions (I personally was a major force in the may crowning with rosary that my parish held this year). But I believe that it is not wise to focus on Mary during the celebration of the Eucharist, unless the tenor of the DAY asks us to do so, such as when celebrating the Immaculate Conception or Assumption.

 

[jmcrae]

It may also give people the right view of how Mass should be offered vs. what the see happening in their own diocese.

People have to realize that they don’t live in the same Diocese as where EWTN is broadcast from. Each Diocese has its own rules regarding the “non-essential” elements of the Mass.

If you live in a different country than EWTN, it is natural that your country’s Mass will look somewhat different than the EWTN Mass, because of the norms of your country. This in no way means that your country is in some way “less orthodox” than EWTN.

What is “less orthodox” is to follow EWTN norms instead of what the Vatican has given as the usage for your country, or what your Bishop has given for the use of your Diocese.

St. Ignatius of Antioch said, “Where the Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.” Not, “Where EWTN’s Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.”

To be a good Catholic is to follow one’s own Bishop, who is following Rome. We are not under the authority of other people’s Bishops.

 

[Walking_Home]

People have to realize that they don’t live in the same Diocese as where EWTN is broadcast from. Each Diocese has its own rules regarding the “non-essential” elements of the Mass.

If you live in a different country than EWTN, it is natural that your country’s Mass will look somewhat different than the EWTN Mass, because of the norms of your country. This in no way means that your country is in some way “less orthodox” than EWTN.

What is “less orthodox” is to follow EWTN norms instead of what the Vatican has given as the usage for your country, or what your Bishop has given for the use of your Diocese.

St. Ignatius of Antioch said, “Where the Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.” Not, “Where EWTN’s Bishop is, there is the Catholic Church.”

To be a good Catholic is to follow one’s own Bishop, who is following Rome. We are not under the authority of other people’s Bishops.

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I was responding in general to Thurifer2 statement. You made my pt with your statement which I bolded above. In many places the bishops are not following Rome and allow the innovation/manipulation of the Mass and the people to whose advantage this is—will view EWTN Mass as a threat.

As you stated above the key is—a Bishop who is following Rome.

 

[THurifer2]

The problem is that something you see - be it on EWTN or in another church - may be ONE WAY, but not THE way.

EWTN has never stated "their way " is the only way. THis is a contrived notion by anti-Trads when referring traditional Catholics…

A statue of Mary in the sacntuary: Obviously allowed, but reasonable people can debate the wisdom of it. Since it’s not MANDATED, I can’t be wrong for preferring against it.

There are thousands of Churches around the world that you would not like then including the apostolic chapel in vatican which has a HUGE MOASAIC of Mary as a backdrop to the altar click here to see Do you think John Paul executed Poor wisdom by taking our focus away from Christ when he commissioned the chapel?

To the originial topic: I’m all for rosarys, statues of Mary, and devotions (I personally was a major force in the may crowning with rosary that my parish held this year). But I believe that it is not wise to focus on Mary during the celebration of the Eucharist, unless the tenor of the DAY asks us to do so, such as when celebrating the Immaculate Conception or Assumption.

One can contmeplate Mary and the Sacrifice of the Mass at the same time since they are interconnected… Of course you must assume that…right??? certainly you can agree that to discourage including mary in the focus of the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass is ONE WAY but not THE “only” WAY.