Statues, a fish dish and the cartographiconiclast!

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Ag_not

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WARNING _ THIS IS A VERY LONG POST. SORRY !! GO TO THE BATHROOM AND GET A DRINK BEFORE YOU START!!! 😃

I got the day wrong. I thought I was working with Jay on Saturday - it was today. I lose a night’s studying!! :eek: So we’re sitting there, after work, looking at the menu. Yummmmmm I say. Makes your mouth water, doesn’t it!! We’re looking at the fish dishes. I found out earlier today we both love fish.
“So you wanna talk about statues, right?”

“Right” I say, clearing my throat.

“See, last week when I was trying to explain I didn’t adore statues like you said Catholics do, I don’t think I did a very good job – and I feel by not being able to refute your assertion, I was letting the church down too, because I felt I left you thinking we DO in fact worship statues, and that’s just not true”

“Ah, but it is – you’ve just been conditioned to believe that’s Not what you’re doing, but in fact you are” he says. “You’re not a catholic yet and you’re already praying to statues. In Church. Look around you when you’re at mass. Pagan shrines covered in candles everywhere. People bowing before the statues and praying to them. Lighting candles to them. If that’s not open practice of paganism, I don’t know what is!”

“Oh my goodness” I say, “even though I’m telling you I don’t worship statues, you seem to know even better than me what I do and don’t do. Wow!” :rolleyes:

“Look, I like you, I’m concerned for you. I just don’t want you making a mistake you’ll regret forever. Your soul is at stake here you know. How awesome is that. And I don’t want you misled. Catholics are nice people. I know many. I like them. But they’re following a Gospel that is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And they do, no matter how they try to disguise it, practice paganism. Worshipping a pagan Goddess, praying to the dead, lighting candles to statues, the Rosary, the mass itself is pure paganism and cannibalism for Pete’s sake!!! I’m concerned you’re going to be seriously misled and regret it. I want you to see and know the truth, before it’s too late.” :eek:

He says. Without pausing for breath. He’s on a role. Time for me to put the brakes on. Statues. I say. That’s what we’re here to talk about. Statues. I want to explain to you why it is I don’t worship statues. I don’t want to talk about Mary, the Mass or anything else yet. I’m growing in my faith. I’m learning. I want to appreciate and enjoy the beauty of the journey and the discovery. I’ve been advised that apologetics can wait. That’s good advice. But I’d already promised to talk to you about statues from our last conversation. So that’s what I’m going to do. And nothing else. Deal?

“And if I can show you, you do worship statues, will you promise to listen to me on the other issues”? he says, smiling.

“Deal” I say out loud, “Come Holy Spirit” I say even louder in my mind. :cool:
He coughs. Looks me straight in the face. Smiles. We are told, beyond doubt, in the Bible, not to worship anyone or anything other than God. Fact. Exodus 20: 3-5. Deut 5: “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them”

Uh Oh! We’re in trouble now I say. We just salivated over the fish menu!!!
Please take this seriously he says. I am I say – but you just said it’s in the Bible – we cannot make any likeness of anything that is in the water or under the water!!! Last I checked fish swam!! And we lusted after those pics of the fish!!! We’re dooooomed!!! 🙂
It gets worse!! I have pictures all over my house of friends, family and myself. I worship myself!!! Oh my Gawd!! Mind you, there are those that would say that much is true!! 😛

Please take this seriously he says again. I AM, I say. Very seriously. You’re showing me so very clearly how I worship pictures of myself, family, friends, oh, and not forgetting the fish.

Deuteronomy 27:15 says, “Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molten image, an abomination to the LORD, a thing made by the hands of a craftsman, and sets it up in secret’ And all the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’” He goes on. Now, look at what catholics do. They worship pictures and statues in their churches, they bow down and pray to them, they light candles to them, they carry pictures of them.

Ok I say. Forget we worshiped the fish and forget about the fact they are an image of something in the sea, directly contravening Exodus 20. What happened a bit later on?

What do you mean he asks?

In Exodus 25: 18? Where God commands his people make 2 cherubim of gold, for each end of the mercy seat. What’s that about then, I ask curiously. :confused:
 
You have to read this in context he says. You have to understand what was happening at the time and with God’s people.

Ok I say. I’m listening. :cool:

He pauses. Thinking. Then takes another mouthful of food. Pause. Longer pause. He chews. Says nothing. :nope:

I cough. Anyhow I say, seems to me like there are times when God actually approves the use of icons. 😊

Read the scriptures he says. Read them properly. Everything is there for you, in black and white… Numbers 33:52 and you shall destroy all their figured stones and molten images, and demolish their high places, Deut 7:5 dash their pillars and break down their alters, Kings, and they served idols, and angered the Lord, Chronicles 2 34:7 He broke down the alters and beat the Asherim and the images into powder … the Lord is angered by idolatry. No doubt about it. “Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made.” -Isaiah 2:8
“The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.” -Isaiah 2:11. “Confounded be all they that serve graven images that boast themselves of idols” -Psalm 97:7. Deuteronomy 18:9-12, “When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.” Catholics are idolaters’. Period.

Wow, I say. I’m speechless. You sure know your scriptures. :clapping:

The Scriptures are God’s saving Word he says. We are obliged to know them. He smiles his lovely smile again.
I don’t get it though. I just don’t get it. I sigh.

Study he says, and come to church with me.

No, not that, I just don’t get why you can’t hear me. I mean, I don’t know where you get your information from, but I’ve told you I don’t worship statues, and you carry on talking as if I never said it.

I can see what’s happening with my own eyes, he says. I see the alters to the statues, with the candles. The holy water. The Icons. People mumbling jibberish to pictures. It’s all there, but that is the danger of the Catholic Church. It’s so insidious you’re caught up in it all before you know what’s happening. And it’s wrong. And against what’s taught in the Bible.

But we ARE taught to worship using icons I say.

What does 1 Samuel 6: 1-18 say?

What does 1 Kings 6: 23 -35 say?

What does Numbers 21: 8-10 say.

What about that fiery snake!!! And for the people to look upon it and live, I say. They would be spared death if they held their gaze upon the snake. Ever seen the snake on the emblem of ambulances and outside pharmacies? Bet they owe Moses billions in copyright!!!

Scripture is littered with examples of where God wants us to worship him in ornaments and icons. He even tells us how to decorate robes and is more fastidious than a Jewish matriarch about what way to decorate his temple!!! Read Kings. It’s all there.

‘’The whole temple he overlaid with gold, until he had finished all the temple; also he overlaid with gold the entire altar that was by the inner sanctuary.
Inside the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olive wood, each ten cubits high. One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub five cubits: ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other. And the other cherub was ten cubits; both cherubim were of the same size and shape. The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was the other cherub. Then he set the cherubim inside the inner room; and they stretched out the wings of the cherubim so that the wing of the one touched one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall. And their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. Also he overlaid the cherubim with gold.
Then he carved all the walls of the temple all around, both the inner and outer sanctuaries, with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. And the floor of the temple he overlaid with gold, both the inner and outer sanctuaries’’.

Yes he counters, and but the Lord struck them down when they worshiped the snake. :eek:
 
Well, not quite I say – it was Hezekiah, a handsome 25 year old, 👍 who wanted to do right by the Lord, and he broke the snake because by then, people had started to worship it, for itself, not seeing it for what it was, the pointer to Christ on the cross to come, as echoed in John 3. They even gave it a name – Nehushtan. They were indeed committing idolatry – because they worshiped the snake, not used the snake to bring their minds to God, and be healed. Can you see that? 👍

Please he says, I don’t need a lecture from someone who was an atheist a few months ago. I know my Bible. 😊

Have you your Bible with you? I ask. He takes it out.

I shriek!!! :eek:

Oh my eyes, my eyes. They burn I shriek. He looks shocked. What!!! The maps. Right there. Inside the cover of your Bible. It’s burning my eyes. Get it away!!!

He doesn’t appreciate my humour. You’re very disrespectful he says, looking a bit annoyed. 😊

But I’m not I say. I’m trying to follow your logic. You pray with the Bible. Yes. And it has maps on the inside leather cover. So you’re idolising a map!!! You’re idolising a Book!!!

He’s more annoyed now. If we can’t speak civilly and you won’t take me seriously, I’m gonna have to go he says.

Sorry I say. I’ll behave. But you’ve not answered anything I’ve brought up. I believe I’ve shown you where the Bible DOES allow the use of religious icons for the purpose of bringing our minds and hearts to focus on God. And when we go over the line, God gets mad and punishes us, because we are making false gods before him. And that gets Him real mad. :o

Do you realise the catholic church dropped that commandment. You shall not make for yourselves graven images. Commanded by God, dropped by catholics, he says.

Naw, I say, catholics are just smart. It’s all about the Decalogue. 10 words. Trying to get the 14 or so instructions to fit into 10 commandments. Catholics just group the ‘’words’’ differently than some other Jewish and Christian traditions, but it’s all there as given to Moses and by Moses.

Catholics say, First, I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have other Gods before me. They can figure out that includes all forms of all idolatry – not just gods as in religion, but money, cars, ambition, they recognise that all sort of thing can become demigods and take our focus away from the one true God. And anything that does that is idolatry. You guys need it spelled out for you!! 😛

I take out my catechism. Look. Read 2129 to 2132 I say. THIS is what catholics are taught. By the Church. FACT!!

He refuses to take my catechism.

Nothing you can say or do nullifies the fact catholics worship statues. FACT!! He says. He’s seriously annoyed now, I can tell. Shall I read 2129 – 2132 to you I say. You’ll get it from the horse’s mouth then, so you’ll KNOW what catholics are thought about idolatry. NO he says again. It doesn’t matter. I see the candles, the pictures, the statues. I know what they do. And it’s not Christian, and it’s not Biblical he almost shouts at me. People look up. I smile. He’s annoyed.
I begin reading from the catechism… 2129 The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. Deuteronomy explains: “Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure…”[66] It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel.”He is the all," but at the same time “he is greater than all his works.”[67] He is “the author of beauty.”[68]
2130 Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.[69]
2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.”[70] The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.[71]
 
I love that last sentence I say. It reminds me of the shuttle. You know, the space shuttle. The eye is the rocket, taking your mind to the picture or statue, which then launches the mind into the realm of God.

Here’s some more on idolatry I say, ignoring the really really annoyed look on his face:

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.” These empty idols make their worshippers empty: “Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them.”[42] God, however, is the “living God”[43] who gives life and intervenes in history.
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, “You cannot serve God and mammon.”[44] Many martyrs died for not adoring “the Beast”[45] refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.[46]
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who “transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God.”[47]

Now THAT is what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Seems pretty comprehensive to me! And look, everything is crossed referenced with scripture and councils and everything I say gleefully. I pass the book over to him. I ask for his Bible. Open at Exodus 18:7 – tell me about Moses worshipping his father in law, a priest I say. My bible says worship, your Bible says obeisance; obeisance means to show respect, by a bow or a courtesy. WHAT!!! Moses, bowing to another man!!!??? A priest too!! What’s that about?
Again you’re taking everything out of context he says. Nope I say. It’s there in black and white. He showed him respect by bowing to him. No one less than Moses!!! Who’d have thought it?! But when a catholic bows before an Icon of Mary or a statue of St. Francis, they’re not bowing to the statue, but to the place where it has taken their thoughts and mind at that moment - directly to God. And the Tabernacle; it contains the consecrated Host, the Body of Christ. Now THAT is awesome! No disrespect to Jethro of course!

Hey, ever had instructions in diagrams for something you bought I ask. I have. Lots of little icons and pictures on how to set up a computer; work the dishwasher, stuff like that. The pictures supplement the written word, the instructions, but if there was no written word, the pictures speak volumes.
Think about illiterate people in the early centuries. How do you get across the passion of Christ? The suffering on the cross? The fact Jesus’ love is all embracing and saving? There are no prayer books on the pews. ICONS!! STATUES!! THAT’S HOW!! So they served an additional purpose of communicating a message from the Gospel visually – for those that could not read, but their minds could be assisted to understand and contemplate what happened for us. St Nilus, advised Olympiodorus;
‘to fill the holy Church on all sides with stories from the Old and New Testament by the hand of the finest painter, that those who cannot read or write and are unable to read the Holy Scriptures might, by contemplating the picture be reminded of the virtue of those who served God truly’.

Pope Gregory said: For painting is used in Churches so that those who cannot read or write may at least read on the walls by seeing there what they cannot read in books … it is one thing to adore a painting; quite another thing to learn from the story of the painting, what ought to be adored. If anyone wishes to make images, by no means forbid him, but by all means, stop the worship of images’

Do you know why catholic Cardinals wear red I ask? To remember the martyrs that have gone before them. Martyrs of the Catholic Church that refused to commit idolatry and worship false roman gods, or even pretend to, to save their own lives. And you seriously want to believe catholics worship idols??!!!

Romans 1 23-24 he shouts: God gave the people up to their impurity and idolatry because they worshiped mere man, birds, animals, reptiles – they became fools!!!

Acts 19:11 I retort; Paul’s snotty tissue heals the sick and drives out demons!!!

I’m ending this now he says. You won’t listen and won’t take me seriously.
 
No – you won’t listen I say. I read you the catechism of the Catholic Church. What catholics are taught about idolatry; how the scriptures back up the use of icons as instructed by God himself. How catholics have warnings against idolatry in their very first commandment; how icons paintings and statues can instruct and guide us to focus on God; how the new testament shows us time and again in Mathew 9, Acts 19, Acts 5 that man made things can be used for the miraculous by God, revelations, how John saw the Lord in all his Glory and the ornate icons associated with this event; but you cannot hear me. Exodus 30 and Mathew 2 for the use of incense in the glorifying of God. I even taught you some latin. I’ve explained latria and dulia to you. I’ve explained how the church triumphant is in communion with the church Militant. I gave you revelations 5 revelations 8 and Mathew 18. I gave you 1 Peter, 2 Peter and 1 Corinthians. I gave you Romans and Ephesians and James. I gave you Mark and John. I gave you what the early church fathers taught, right from the time of Christ on earth. Catholics worship and pray only to God, as Christ taught us when he was here on earth. But because of the richness of the catholic faith catholics understand the truth of the communion of saints and the power of intercession. You are deaf to that truth.

Seems to me like catholics KNOW how to be sophisticated enough, are blessed to be sophisticated enough, to be able to use icons and statues like poetry, and the example of the lives of those that have gone before them in the Lord, the saints, to bring their minds to a place of contemplation on the Lord, where as those like you seem to genuinely fear icons and statues through ignorance and prejudice.

One more thing – can I rip these maps from your Bible? He seizes the book from me. Just as I thought, I say – you’re a cartographiconiclast!!! 😛

I’ll pray the rosary for you tonight I say, - see you Monday at work. Have a good weekend. He puts his hand over mine – hey he says, I like you a lot you know. Let’s not fall out over this. Let’s agree to disagree huh? :cool:

And I get up and leave. Lose those pics of your girlfriend and mother I say, and heaven help you when that pic of your dog gets out!! Study a good translation of the Bible. Read the catechism. Put some time into linguistics and translation and syntax and context and history. Don’t go to the church of a risen pineapple to find out what Catholics believe in.

I fix my hair, wrap up warm, and pay the bill. I smile and he smiles back.

The slight breeze outside reminds me of the Holy Spirit for some reason. And I just say a quite “thank you”. 😃
 
That is wonderful! I was afraid I was not going to be able to keep my attention to the whole post, but once I got started it was so inspiring and humorous that I held onto every word. Great job!
 
Reading this I felt like a fly on the wall. 😃 👍 :clapping: :tiphat: :bounce: :signofcross:
 
:hmmm: Funny, all my apologetics encounters seem to go exactly that way. It seems that a lot of anti-Catholics (or even well-meaning but misinformed non-Catholics) seem to lose interest when they finally meet a Catholic that can answer their well-worn challenges to the Faith. Depending on their level of humilty, they will either admit they didn’t know as much about Catholicism as they thought, or (as in your friends case) they get angry and go off in a huff.

(Here on line, it is often a different manner. When folks can hide behind the anonymity of the internet and not have to look you in the face, they are more inclined to be bellicose, rude and argumentative)

Well done, Ag_not! Follow the same principles you used for this encounter and you may make a great apologist someday! 👍
 
Ag_not said:
Thank you all so sinclerelly for your wise words. I have taken them all on board. We met and had something to eat. I dont think he wants to talk religion with me any more. 😊
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Uh…

:eek:

:clapping:

I find it hard to believe that you were flustered with this guy on the first encounter. That was GREAT.

Maybe we should call you “The Natural” due to your sweet apologetics swing! :choocho:

The best thing you did was to keep it focused on one subject. Great job.
 
God bless you, Ag not!

I’m terrible at defending my faith - I allow myself to get sidetracked and dragged down all sorts of culs de sac, and then get very cross with myself but you did a brilliant job!

Thank you so much for posting your experience here, I think I will try out your technique in future.

all the best, Pat
 
I congradulate on doing an excellent job, by the grace of God, of defending Catholicism. Please don’t get mad when people don’t accept the truth - some have preconceived notions which won’t go away ever until they become Catholic themselves.

A good way to evangelize is to ask questions. Instead of saying what you believe, ask. Ask why someone believes this, or says that. And if they ask you a question, answer them truthfully. It’s how Jesus preached, I think.
 
There is a lot of good information in your post my young friend. That a lot of research was done is clear. 👍

I think this subject apologetics and statues will be a good class to teach my students. The concept of teaching the gospel through paintings and statues is an idea I did not know.

140 days until Easter

God bless
 
Fidelis said:
:hmmm: Funny, all my apologetics encounters seem to go exactly that way. It seems that a lot of anti-Catholics (or even well-meaning but misinformed non-Catholics) seem to lose interest when they finally meet a Catholic that can answer their well-worn challenges to the Faith. Depending on their level of humilty, they will either admit they didn’t know as much about Catholicism as they thought, or (as in your friends case) they get angry and go off in a huff.
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I recently experienced the same thing with a Mormon friend of mine via email. He said that he wanted to know more about Catholicism (it turned out he was trying to do missionary work on me) and stated what I knew. Of course, I had to turn into an apologist when I recognized what he was doing. I never attacked his faith tradition, but when it got down to the question of Matt 16:18, he refused to answer my question regarding this verse and began to tell me how I was attacking the prophecy of Joseph Smith! :eek: He wanted to end the discussion there and we ended it and maintained our friendship. 🙂
Fidelis said:
Well done, Ag_not! Follow the same principles you used for this encounter and you may make a great apologist someday! 👍
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I concur! Wonderful job!! :clapping:
 
Highwayhound said:
140 days until Easter

God bless
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:eek: :eek: :eek:

That has lifted my soul like you wouldn’t believe 😃 😃 😃

140 days. I am so not worthy.

I truely believe God is using everyone here in a wonderful way. You are all makeing my journey in faith the most incredible and wonderful and most life affirming, consuming and changing experience a person could have.

God is wonderful, and does wonderful things with the most mundane of stuff if we’re only open to Him.

I’m so grateful to all of you here.
 
Yet we too are blessed by sharing this journey with you Little Sister. :hug3:

I know I am humbled 😊 by the way you are growing and encouraged by your faith.

24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee. 25 The Lord show his face to thee, and have mercy on thee. 26 The Lord turn his countenance to thee, and give thee peace. (Numbers 6)
 
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