Statues and icons in Catholic/Orthodox churches

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English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

God said in the old testament Deuteronomy 5 : 8 " You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

On what base Catholic church made statues and icons?

God bless
 
In the Bible commanded the Israelites to make images Ex 25:18-22, 26:1,31; Num 21:8-9

Images are only idols if we worship them. Catholics don’t worship statues!
 
English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

God said in the old testament Deuteronomy 5 : 8 " You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

On what base Catholic church made statues and icons?

God bless
In the days before the printing press, the availability of books was rare. Iconology was and is used to help instruct the people in the faith. Paintings and statues, stained glass windows, and many more things bring the Gospel to life.

These do not violate the first commandment prohibition of idols because, as has been said, they are not worshipped.

Jon
 
English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

God said in the old testament Deuteronomy 5 : 8 " You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

On what base Catholic church made statues and icons?

God bless
There’s a book by saint John of Damascus on just this question. Here’s a link:

roca.org/OA/95/95b.htm

Back in the day there was a big fight in the Church over exactly this question. The Iconodoules, or ‘image venerators’ clashed with the Iconoclasts, or ‘image smashers.’ The icon smashers got the Byzantine Emperor on their side and for a considerablke time anyone who venerated icons was persecuted. Eventually the Iconodoules won out and their victory is still celebrated with a feast day as the Triumph of Orthodoxy.

During the Reformation Iconoclast sentiments resurfaced and a there’s often a big misunderstanding among Protestants and evangelicals on this issue. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches distinguish between “doulia” or veneration made to icons and “latria”, which is the worship due only to God. Icons are not worshipped in the sense that Jesus is, but are shown honor as “windows to heaven”, bearing testimony to greater realities. The same God who commanded that no graven images be made also commanded the Jews to make statues and ornaments for their temple. You can read about this in the Old Testament, in First Kings chapters 6-8. To be consistent one who stands against icons would also have to be against stained glass windows as they’re basically the same thing. Icons are visual theology lessons, from a time before widespread literacy and printing. They are not idolatrous.
 
English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

God said in the old testament Deuteronomy 5 : 8 " You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

On what base Catholic church made statues and icons?

God bless
I was taught by the nuns & priests that the statues/icons are there simply to “remind” us.

The statues/icons of that certain person: Mary, St Therese, Joseph, etc, are in the parishes & homes to “remind” us that they too were once human beings on this earth. To the point when we ask for their intercession to join us in our prayers, they are right there with us as we pray. Sort of like the angels, but they were actual human beings on this earth.

We do not adore or worship the actual statues/icons, only God.
 
English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

God said in the old testament Deuteronomy 5 : 8 " You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

On what base Catholic church made statues and icons?

God bless
On the same base that the chosen people made an Ark with angels on top, then danced before it and built a major temple to keep it, and while on the desert they raised a bronze serpent that the people could look at and be healed by its sight.

The iconoclast heresy is old and has been shown to be unsound and unscriptural many centuries ago.
 
In the days before the printing press, the availability of books was rare. Iconology was and is used to help instruct the people in the faith. Paintings and statues, stained glass windows, and many more things bring the Gospel to life.
You know - I’ve heard this argument so much…and it certainly makes good sense…until you consider that there was no printing press in the OT times either and the Chosen people did not make icons of any kind - even to “bring the (Torah) to life”…

So - one can legitimately ask - - - what changed?
These do not violate the first commandment prohibition of idols because, as has been said, they are not worshiped.
This seems to me to be the best and most foundational of arguments.
Tied to this is the idea that in the NT covenant we are no longer “under the Law”…and so things can be understood a bit differently than in the OT covenant.

Peace
James
 
You know - I’ve heard this argument so much…and it certainly makes good sense…until you consider that there was no printing press in the OT times either and the Chosen people did not make icons of any kind - even to “bring the (Torah) to life”…

So - one can legitimately ask - - - what changed?
The incarnation of Christ occurred.

Recently I came upon some interesting material here which can shed light on this issue. In brief, during the early centuries of Christianity, it was heretics, rather than Christians, who opposed the use of images.
 
The incarnation of Christ occurred.

Recently I came upon some interesting material here which can shed light on this issue. In brief, during the early centuries of Christianity, it was heretics, rather than Christians, who opposed the use of images.
Don’t get me wrong here…I have nothing against the use of icons in whatever form.
I am just playing devil’s advocate.

Icons could have been created and used in just the same way pre-incarnation as post incarnation; that is, as aids of the faith, to “illustrate” for those who could not read etc…Yet they were not.

I just see the point made by JonNC as a rather weak though widespread one.

Peace
James
 
God was hidden in the OT times, He spoke from the burning bush and would not give His name to moses other than I Am who Am. He was a hidden God.

but since He became man He was no longer hidden. everyone could now see the image of God as a man walking in their midst and talking to them, as He wished to be seen.
since that time, since God has give us His image of Himself we can show that image to others also. an image of God is not forbidden, worshipping anything in Gods place is forbidden. your god may be money, power, etc., etc.
 
I don’t believe that people worship statues or icons. But some people, like me, are visual and it really helps to increase the depth of our worship.
 
Don’t get me wrong here…I have nothing against the use of icons in whatever form.
I am just playing devil’s advocate.

Icons could have been created and used in just the same way pre-incarnation as post incarnation; that is, as aids of the faith, to “illustrate” for those who could not read etc…Yet they were not.

I just see the point made by JonNC as a rather weak though widespread one.
Don’t worry, I understood what you meant and that you weren’t opposing the use of images.

I would say that JonNC’s defense of this practice is good but incomplete. We also have to address the matter of the veneration of statues and icons, not simply their presence in a worship setting.
 
Don’t worry, I understood what you meant and that you weren’t opposing the use of images.

I would say that JonNC’s defense of this practice is good but incomplete. We also have to address the matter of the veneration of statues and icons, not simply their presence in a worship setting.
I would suggest that this would be easier for Catholics and Orthodox than for an American Lutheran such as myself.

Jon
 
God was hidden in the OT times, He spoke from the burning bush and would not give His name to Moses other than I Am who Am. He was a hidden God.

but since He became man He was no longer hidden. everyone could now see the image of God as a man walking in their midst and talking to them, as He wished to be seen.
since that time, since God has give us His image of Himself we can show that image to others also. an image of God is not forbidden, worshipping anything in Gods place is forbidden. your god may be money, power, etc., etc.
I like this.

Peace
James
 
I would suggest that this would be easier for Catholics and Orthodox than for an American Lutheran such as myself.
True.

Here’s hoping that people of both communions will step up to the plate (this is an area in apologetics that I have to work on). 🙂
 
Don’t get me wrong here…I have nothing against the use of icons in whatever form.
I am just playing devil’s advocate.

Icons could have been created and used in just the same way pre-incarnation as post incarnation; that is, as aids of the faith, to “illustrate” for those who could not read etc…Yet they were not.

I just see the point made by JonNC as a rather weak though widespread one.

Peace
James
I understand that is is one of the weaker defenses, but the Temple was adorned with many images;bulls, angels, pommegranates, lions, palm trees…
 
I understand that is is one of the weaker defenses, but the Temple was adorned with many images;bulls, angels, pommegranates, lions, palm trees…
And this is a much better point to make instead of - or with the other argument.

Peace
James
 
In the days before the printing press, the availability of books was rare. Iconology was and is used to help instruct the people in the faith. Paintings and statues, stained glass windows, and many more things bring the Gospel to life.

These do not violate the first commandment prohibition of idols because, as has been said, they are not worshipped.

Jon
Jon’s answer actually typifies the standard defense for images in the West.

Word has since reached us that you, gripped by blind fury, have broken the images of the saints with the excuse that they should not be adored. And indeed we heartily applaud you for keeping them from being adored, but for breaking them we reproach you. Tell us, brother, have you ever heard of any bishop anywhere who did the like? This, if nothing else, should have given you pause. Do you despise your brothers and think that you alone are holy and wise? To adore images is one thing; to teach with their help what should be adored is another. What Scripture is to the educated, images are to the ignorant, who see through them what they must accept; they read in them what they cannot read in books. This is especially true of the pagans. And it particularly behooves you, who live among pagans, not to allow yourself to be carried away by just zeal and so give scandal to savage minds. Therefore you ought not to have broken that which was placed in the church not in order to be adored but solely in order to instruct the minds of the ignorant. It is not without reason that tradition permits the deeds of the saints to be depicted in holy places. If you had tempered your zeal with discretion, you could certainly have better achieved what you wanted, and rather than scatter the flock that was scattered, and so have enhanced the glory of your name of pastor rather than acquired the guilty name of a disperser. But by following your own rash impulse you, as I hear, have so scandalized your flock that the larger part of it is no longer in communion with you. How will you lead wandering sheep to the Lord’s fold if you are not able to keep in it those you already have? Therefore we exhort you to lay aside false pride, and immediately to do all you can to call back, with paternal love, those disaffected souls that you know to be outside the unity of your communion.

For these dispersed children of the church must be called back, and those passages of Holy Scripture should be shown to them that prohibit the adoration of man’s handiwork, for it is written, “Thou shalt adore the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.” But then you should add that because you saw that those painted likenesses, made for the instruction of the ignorant, so that they might understand the stories and so learn what occurred, were being adored, you were so enraged that you ordered them to be broken. And you should also tell them: “If you wish to have images in church in order to gain from them the instruction for which they were formerly made, I freely permit them to be made and placed there.” And explain that it was not the sight of the story there related in a painted text that angered you, but the worship which had been paid to them illicitly.
  • Pope St. Gregory the Great to Bishop Serenus of Marseille
===

There are some who believe that God’s law forbids us to sculpture or to paint, whether in a church or any other place, the figures of men or animals or the likeness of any other object … [They would not think thus] if they considered the works of Moses, who, at the Lord’s command, first made the cherubim in the propitiatory, and later on the brazen serpent in the desert, at whose sight the people were saved from the wild serpents’ poison. Now if it was permissible to lift up a brazen serpent on a piece of wood so that the Israelites who behold it might live, why should it not be allowable to recall to the memory of the faithful, by a painting, that exaltation of our Lord Saviour on the cross through which he conquered death, and also his other miracles and healings through which he wonderfully triumphed over the same author of death, and especially since their sight is wont also to produce a feeling of great compunction in the beholder, and since they open up, as it were, a living reading of the Lord’s story for those who cannot read? The Greek word for pictura is indeed zoographia, that is, “living writing.”
  • Venerable Bede
The thing is, Western theologians (under the influence of St. Augustine) have traditionally prioritized the word over the image, which is subservient to it. The superiority however hinges on the fact that the fullest knowledge of the truths of the faith must be acquired from Scripture. In other words, the propositional content of Scripture cannot be fully articulated in painting or sculpture: images can represent biblical people and events, but it could never completely express things like the Ten Commandments or the Beatitudes. Images could potentially illustrate them, but only language has the power to adequately state them. In this reading, the image should be for the illiterate what the written word is for the literate. This is part of the reason why the West has developed the art of illuminated manuscripts and historiated initials: art is married to and pressed to the service of the written text. We could contrast this view with the “windows to Heaven” approach of the East.
 
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