Statues and images

[mikew262]

I’m not sure this is the right area to post this, but I’ll give it a go.

I was hanging out on a Baptist forum yesterday and specifically on a thread that dealt with the Catholic Church. One poster (former Catholic) brought up his objection to the CC’s use of statues and images which he claimed was in violation of the 1st commandment.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

I read the CCC on this subject, and IMO, it kind of tap dances around it and I really wasn’t satisfied with the explanation of why the Church has statues and images.

Now don’t get me wrong, I like the statues and images within the CC and I personally see nothing wrong with them. However, the commandment is pretty clear on this from what I can see, see the bolded parts. It would seem any likeness or image, or statue of anything in heaven (Jesus, Mary, saints) clearly violates the commandment.

Comments?

 

[als10062008]

Venerating an image or a statue of the Blessed Mother or a saint or a crucifix isn’t a sin. These images and statues can be used to meditate on the love of God and the sacrifice of Jesus’ death.

What is sinful is making the object your God (think of the golden calf in the Old Testament). In this case, loving the statue or image above the relationship you have with God would be sinful. But there is no problem with meditating before an image or statue.

 

[thistle]

I’m not sure this is the right area to post this, but I’ll give it a go.

I was hanging out on a Baptist forum yesterday and specifically on a thread that dealt with the Catholic Church. One poster (former Catholic) brought up his objection to the CC’s use of statues and images which he claimed was in violation of the 1st commandment.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

I read the CCC on this subject, and IMO, it kind of tap dances around it and I really wasn’t satisfied with the explanation of why the Church has statues and images.

Now don’t get me wrong, I like the statues and images within the CC and I personally see nothing wrong with them. However, the commandment is pretty clear on this from what I can see, see the bolded parts. It would seem any likeness or image, or statue of anything in heaven (Jesus, Mary, saints) clearly violates the commandment.

Comments?

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp

 

[FAB]

This is one of the oldest aurguments used to bash Catholics.

First, God came to earth and died for use, in such he showed himself to us, he has allowed us not only to call him by name but to remember him through our images and art.

The best explaination for the for our statues and images that I use, is to ask the person if they have a picture of a loved one in their wallet or purse. Ask them when they look at it what do they think about, why do they touch it or even kiss it. Are they worshiping the picture? The answer is usually because it helps them to remember the person and to think about them. Then tell them it is the same with our statues and images. We are not praying to the staute,to it, we are not offering offering addoration, it only helps us to think about and imagine, like that picture, of the saint, or Mary or Jesus and our prayer is directly to them.

The origins of the the use of statues and images were a tool to teach and inspire. The stain glass most offten depicted biblical scenes, the statues showed an aspect of a saint’s life.

Peace,
FAB

 

[btdn]

This probably is not the approach you would want to take with them, but it made me smile.

All boyish whimwhams and mad bacchanalia, the false writings that have been brought forth against the venerable icons, must be turned in to the Bishopric of Constantinople to be put away together with the rest of heretical books. If, on the other hand, anyone should be found hiding these, if he be a Bishop, a Presbyter, or a Deacon, let him be deposed from office; but if he be a layman or a monk, let him be excommunicated.

Are not whimwham and bacchanalia wonderful words?

Is that the writing of a crazed, ultra-traditionalist Catholic? No. Well, maybe. Who knows. The writer got lots of bishops to agree with him. It is the ninth canon of the Seventh Ecumenical Council (a.k.a. the Second Council of Nicea).

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
I was hanging out on a Baptist forum yesterday and specifically on a thread that dealt with the Catholic Church.**

When I was a Baptist, we said prayers to pieces of cloth.

 

[AverageJohn]

This is one of the oldest aurguments used to bash Catholics.

First, God came to earth and died for use, in such he showed himself to us, he has allowed us not only to call him by name but to remember him through our images and art.

The best explaination for the for our statues and images that I use, is to ask the person if they have a picture of a loved one in their wallet or purse. Ask them when they look at it what do they think about, why do they touch it or even kiss it. Are they worshiping the picture? The answer is usually because it helps them to remember the person and to think about them. Then tell them it is the same with our statues and images. We are not praying to the staute,to it, we are not offering offering addoration, it only helps us to think about and imagine, like that picture, of the saint, or Mary or Jesus and our prayer is directly to them.

The origins of the the use of statues and images were a tool to teach and inspire. The stain glass most offten depicted biblical scenes, the statues showed an aspect of a saint’s life.

Peace,
FAB

This sums it up really well.

 

[mangy_dog]

I’m not sure this is the right area to post this, but I’ll give it a go.

I was hanging out on a Baptist forum yesterday and specifically on a thread that dealt with the Catholic Church. One poster (former Catholic) brought up his objection to the CC’s use of statues and images which he claimed was in violation of the 1st commandment.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

I read the CCC on this subject, and IMO, it kind of tap dances around it and I really wasn’t satisfied with the explanation of why the Church has statues and images.

Now don’t get me wrong, I like the statues and images within the CC and I personally see nothing wrong with them. However, the commandment is pretty clear on this from what I can see, see the bolded parts. It would seem any likeness or image, or statue of anything in heaven (Jesus, Mary, saints) clearly violates the commandment.

Comments?

Why would God Himself have Moses fashion an ark with the likeness of Cherubims, wings extended over and touching - on top of the Ark of the Covenant? An image from heaven huh?

Ask your friend if he/she thinks that these images should 1) be destroyed 2) if that will bring him or her back to the catholic church 3) if he/she will open up his/her wallet/purse and destroy the picures of his/her family.

We are not talking about images of baphomet or Isis…we’re talking about “our family”. The saints that have gone on before us. Jesus’ intimate friends, canonized for their saintly lives, lives that we are supposed to imitate and venerate.

Tell your friend the difference between - dulia; latria and hyper-dulia.

Your friend sounds to me like he/she is jealous or nostalgic of the richness of tradition of the One, True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church.

 

[TheDoctor]

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth…It would seem any likeness or image, or statue of anything in heaven (Jesus, Mary, saints) clearly violates the commandment.

The simple answer is that you are misreading the text (or more specifically, misreading this translation of the Greek).

It is not “don’t make graven images” AND/OR “don’t make likenesses of anything in heaven or earth or water”

It is “don’t make graven images of anything in heaven or in the earth or in the water”.

Does that help?

 

[mikew262]

Venerating an image or a statue of the Blessed Mother or a saint or a crucifix isn’t a sin. These images and statues can be used to meditate on the love of God and the sacrifice of Jesus’ death.

What is sinful is making the object your God (think of the golden calf in the Old Testament). In this case, loving the statue or image above the relationship you have with God would be sinful. But there is no problem with meditating before an image or statue.

In general, I agree with you, but that still doesn’t address the “nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above” part. To me, thats pretty clear. Do not make any image of anything that is in Heaven above. Jesus, Mary and all the saints are in Heaven above.

 

[mikew262]

catholic.com/library/do_catholics_worship_statues.asp

I’ve read that and I’ve always agreed with it. However, IMO, it tap dances around the fact that Scripture says “nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above”. This sounds pretty clear to me, and least on the surface, the Church seems in direct violation of it. Jesus, Mary, and saints all are in Heaven. When it says we will not make any likeness of anything in heaven above, well…

The only way I see around it, would be to interpret heaven as the sky and not actually heaven. However, that could be a real stretch.

 

[mikew262]

This is one of the oldest aurguments used to bash Catholics.

First, God came to earth and died for use, in such he showed himself to us, he has allowed us not only to call him by name but to remember him through our images and art.

The best explaination for the for our statues and images that I use, is to ask the person if they have a picture of a loved one in their wallet or purse. Ask them when they look at it what do they think about, why do they touch it or even kiss it. Are they worshiping the picture? The answer is usually because it helps them to remember the person and to think about them. Then tell them it is the same with our statues and images. We are not praying to the staute,to it, we are not offering offering addoration, it only helps us to think about and imagine, like that picture, of the saint, or Mary or Jesus and our prayer is directly to them.

The origins of the the use of statues and images were a tool to teach and inspire. The stain glass most offten depicted biblical scenes, the statues showed an aspect of a saint’s life.

Peace,
FAB

I’ve always agreed with your premise and kind of still do, however… see my other answers above.

 

[mikew262]

Why would God Himself have Moses fashion an ark with the likeness of Cherubims, wings extended over and touching - on top of the Ark of the Covenant? An image from heaven huh?

Because in this case, God himself commanded it.

 

[Pier]

Because in this case, God himself commanded it.

Exactly…

This was an order from God - by Him, and for Him, which is the example that His Church follows.

 

[mangy_dog]

Because in this case, God himself commanded it.

…Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loosen on earth will be loosened in heaven…

Not withstanding this comment by God the Son…

What would be acceptable? A cross instead of a crucifix? That’s very protestant.

Eliminate the image of the Immaculate, Perpetual Virgin Mother of God?

Eliminate the image of St. Joseph?

Eliminate the image of St. Michael Archangel?

Eliminate the image of the patron saint of the specific church.?

If the statues and images of our beloved saints and martyrs offends you…then remain - whatever: Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical etc etc etc. and while you’re at it, destroy the pictures of your loved ones, for those are also images and it seems that images offend you.

 

[mikew262]

…Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loosen on earth will be loosened in heaven…

Not withstanding this comment by God the Son…

What would be acceptable? A cross instead of a crucifix? That’s very protestant.

Eliminate the image of the Immaculate, Perpetual Virgin Mother of God?

Eliminate the image of St. Joseph?

Eliminate the image of St. Michael Archangel?

Eliminate the image of the patron saint of the specific church.?

If the statues and images of our beloved saints and martyrs offends you…then remain - whatever: Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical etc etc etc. and while you’re at it, destroy the pictures of your loved ones, for those are also images and it seems that images offend you.

If you had bothered to read my profile it would’ve told you I’m Catholic and if you had read my posts, they would’ve told you I have never had any problem with statues or images. In fact I wear a 4-way medal.

I don’t want to eliminate anything, however, the point still remains concerning the commandment forbidding the producing of images of anything in heaven. You skirted right around that. I’d like some independent thought on this not a regurge of what the Church says.

The point you make at the beginning of your post concerning about binding by the apostles is valid.

Try to answer w/o being a jerk. It helps on the credibility.

 

[Ilroy]

In general, I agree with you, but that still doesn’t address the “nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above” part. To me, thats pretty clear. Do not make any image of anything that is in Heaven above. Jesus, Mary and all the saints are in Heaven above.

Well, you can’t stop the quote at this point. It continues on to say “or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.”

As was pointed out previously, if they have ANY pictures of family of friends then they are clearly being hypocritical. It’s just that plain and simple.

They are also dividing the commandments up in a way to make it seem to say this…The Church on the other hand sees the commandment as saying we are not to worship any images that we make, like the pagans of the time were doing.

 

[mikew262]

Well, you can’t stop the quote at this point. It continues on to say “or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.”

As was pointed out previously, if they have ANY pictures of family of friends then they are clearly being hypocritical. It’s just that plain and simple.

They are also dividing the commandments up in a way to make it seem to say this…The Church on the other hand sees the commandment as saying we are not to worship any images that we make, like the pagans of the time were doing.

It still seems there is a potential conflict between what the commandment says and what the Church practices in this regard. However, hopefully, the Church has it right, because we’ll continue having statues in the house and I’ll continue wearing my medal. If the Church has it wrong, we’ll all find out about it eventually.

 

[FAB]

I don’t want to eliminate anything, however, the point still remains concerning the commandment forbidding the producing of images of anything in heaven. You skirted right around that. I’d like some independent thought on this not a regurge of what the Church says.

In not Skirting the issue. At the time the Hebrews were making thier way through the land that is now is Israel they were not along. The Cannanites and other peoples to which they came in contact did worship graven images and statues as if they were gods. Any reading of the Old Testement reveals that they failed at theis first comand many times including Soloman. This interaction, was believed by the hebrews, to have lead to their own downfall. As Catholics we believe that the bible is the inspired word of God, but not the literal word, and true in ways of salvation. For the writers of the bible, in that time, it was important to emphisis the one true God, and had seen how when they strayed from Him, they failed.
So far us, if we were to errect a statue, and kneel and pray to it,as though it were a god, we would be falling into this sinfull nature of turning from God. Many believe today that our graven images are the TV, Internet, materials goods, because they take us away from and become more important than having a personal relationship with God. We read that command in that light as our direction to keep God first in our lives, that is our salvation, not if there is a statue in the church.

Peace,
FAB

 

[ocean_soul1980]

I’m not Catholic (yet), but here’s my take on it:
If we are literally not allowed to make any “likenesses” of anything on Earth, in heaven, or above or under water, then all of these are also forbidden:
Paintings
Sculptures
Pictures
any drawing of anything, even grapes and vines as borders on your walls! My sister has that…oops…she’s a sinner, lol.

And please, don’t take this post as if I’m trying to offend you. The biggest problem with the Fundamentalist Protestant view on this (yes, I saw that you’re a Catholic, I’m just sayin…) is that they have NO issue with having paintings/sculptures/pictures/et cetera in their house, but when it comes to the Crucifix, or sculptures of the Virgin Mary (or any other Saint), it’s a SIN. It’s a double-standard.

If Catholics were literally worshiping the statues/likenesses, it would be a sin. Yet we all know that the statue of the Virgin is NOT actually the Virgin herself, and we also know that when we bow down in front of her to ask for her blessings, we’re simply meditating on her, and the image helps us focus. Of course, I haven’t ever done this (as I said, I’m not Catholic yet), but I understand the concept.

No, I don’t think the Protestant view on this is correct at all. If it was, we wouldn’t even be allowed to own any DVDs or anything like that, because they have “likenesses” on them.

There’s a huge difference between veneration and idolatry.