Statues: Biblical or Unbiblical?

[patrick457]

I’m surprised that no one has brought up St. John of Damascus’ Apologia Against Those Who Decry Holy Images yet. If you think this is something new which hasn’t been brought up before, think again. The Church in the East has had to endure the Iconoclast controversy (730-787). This is a work from that period, penned by the monk John of Damascus as a response against the Iconoclasts who were actively destroying anything they saw as ‘idolatrous’, and pretty much sums up the theology on images.

 

[kimberly87]

Brother patrick, jupiter wasnt mislabeled. it was done on purpose. Constantine mixed pagan things with christian things to keep the people happy. Everybody knows this. The sabbath is saturday but the CC made their devotees think its sunday, the day of the sun worshipers. Thats why you see so many sun images all over the CC. the woman with child is pagan in origin. Now its called baby Jesus and Mary. None of that matters. Being born again is all that matters

 

[aragonjohn1]

Brother patrick, jupiter wasnt mislabeled. it was done on purpose. Constantine mixed pagan things with christian things to keep the people happy. Everybody knows this. The sabbath is saturday but the CC made their devotees think its sunday, the day of the sun worshipers. Thats why you see so many sun images all over the CC. the woman with child is pagan in origin. Now its called baby Jesus and Mary. None of that matters. Being born again is all that matters

so, who would not want to show an image of a women with a child?

as for the constantine thing there are many links on the following thread and by mny scholars that refute thatWhenever one encounters a proposed example of pagan influence, one should demand that its existence be properly documented, not just asserted. The danger of accepting an inaccurate claim is too great. The amount of misinformation in this area is great enough that it is advisable never to accept a reported parallel as true unless it can be demonstrated from primary source documents or through reliable, scholarly secondary sources. After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, one should ask a number of questions:

1. Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not. The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source.

For example: “The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known” (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood (not surprising, since the Ennead itself was an extended family) and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong. There is no parallel.

1. Is the parallel dependent or independent? Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. Two groups may develop similar beliefs, practices, and artifacts totally independently of each other. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views.

• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=564144
• catholic.com/tracts/is-catholicism-pagan

shalom
God Bless you on you’re journey

 

[Pheonix]

Im here. Recovering from fatigue and heat here in so calif.

I hope you’re well.

the faithful dont know or dont want to admit that Jupiter was renamed Peter.

The faithful most certainly know about the anti-Catholic myth that the statue of St. Peter is supposedly a statue of Jupiter. This assertion, however, has no evidence to back it up. You have yet to provide any credible evidence, and unsubstantiated assertions can easily be dismissed as false.

read history by unbiased authors or just google it.

Excuse me? There is no such thing as “unbiased history.” History is recorded in either the eyes of the victors or the eyes of the losers. History was, still is, and will continue to be written by fallible, biased people.

Surely, even the most serious, well-trained, and best historians out there try to scholarly objectify their work. But at the end of the day, they are human beings. Because of this, they cannot fully erase whatever bias they may have toward an event.

Further, merely telling us to “Google the statue of St. Peter was once a statute of Jupiter” does nothing for us. There are a myriad of websites out on the internet that are extremely biased against the Catholic faith. In fact, they are so biased that they come up with vehement myths, such as “the statue of St. Peter = statue of Jupiter.”

As to this thread, are statues biblical? Yes. Statues are in the bible.

Progress.

They are refered to as graven images.

And Scripture tells us that when we are sinning when we elevate said graven images to a god-like status. If, however, we only use images religiously, then there is nothing wrong.

And gods man hezekiah(2kings 18) got rid of all the images in Israel.

And as you’ve been shown, Hezekiah did this because the Israelites were worshiping said images.

Anyone who has bothered to open the old testament knows god had a running battle with graven images.

Oh, really? I’ve read the Old Testament quite a lot, and I’ve have not seen hide or hair of this “running battle with graven images.” Can you provide the books, chapters, and verses to which you are referring to?

Further, anyone who has bothered to open the Old Testament knows God was against the worship of graven images. He was not against the proper religious use of graven images.

After all, the Old Testament tells us that God even commanded that graven images be made for a religious purpose.

Oh, but now they are OK. God changes not. Sound familiar?

God does not change. Of course. But God never told us we could not use graven images in a proper, religious way. He told us not to worship or serve graven images.

 

[Pheonix]

Brother patrick, jupiter wasnt mislabeled. it was done on purpose.

Substantiate this claim.

Constantine mixed pagan things with christian things to keep the people happy.

Oh, jeez. Not the whole “Constantine paganized the Catholic Church” argument.

Please cite credible historians that support this view.

Everybody knows this.

Anti-Catholics who espouse vehement, unsubstantiated myths do not count as “everybody.”

Again, please cite the credible historians that believe such a ludicrous claim. Unless you substantiate your claim, we cannot accept your arguments. You’re talking the talk, but now please walk the walk.

The sabbath is saturday but the CC made their devotees think its sunday, the day of the sun worshipers.

You’ve got this completely backwards. The Catholic Church believes the Sabbath is still Saturday. The Catholic Church, however, does not teach that the faithful are required to worship on Saturday. This is because Scripture tells us that the Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ, and is no longer applicable.

Catholics worship on Sunday because it is “the Day of the Lord.” We believe Sunday is the day Christ rose from the dead, so why wouldn’t we want to worship God on such a glorious day?

Thats why you see so many sun images all over the CC.

Ummm… no. It’s because light imagery symbolizes purity and divinity.

the woman with child is pagan in origin.

There are several elements within Christianity that have pagan parallels. Here are three examples:

1. Virgin Births
2. A child that was born to a human mother, but the father was divine.
3. Christmas

Now its called baby Jesus and Mary.

By your logic, all of Christianity is pagan. Why bother being Christian, then? And moreover, how do we know that Christianity is the one true religion of God?

None of that matters.

Says you.

Being born again is all that matters

And where is the scriptural support for this assertion?

In any case, there are many different definitions of what it means to be “born again.” Which one is correct?

 

[kimberly87]

Something Brother patrick said just hit me. He said the statue of jupiter doesnt even look like Jupiter. Thats priceless .

 

[babs57]

Brother patrick, jupiter wasnt mislabeled. it was done on purpose. Constantine mixed pagan things with christian things to keep the people happy. Everybody knows this. The sabbath is saturday but the CC made their devotees think its sunday, the day of the sun worshipers. Thats why you see so many sun images all over the CC. the woman with child is pagan in origin. Now its called baby Jesus and Mary. None of that matters. Being born again is all that matters

Hey Kimberly! Actually, the very first Christians were meeting on the “Lord’s Day” (Sunday…the day of the resurrection. It’s in the Bible). Please read the bible.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached to them…

1 Cor 16:1-2 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so, do ye. Upon ***the first day of the week ***let every one of you lay by him in store as God has prospered him,…

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day.

In the Bible, the Sabbath (which means the seventh) represents the completion of creation. When Jesus’ resurrection happened on the first day of the week, the first Christians realized that it marked a new creation. It gained a special significance, and they began to assemble on the Lord’s Day for special things. Actually, the first Christians came together*** daily ***for the “breaking of the bread and the prayers” (Acts 2:42) which is what Catholics do to this day. Every day, around the world, Catholics are gathering together as a visible sign of the presence of God, for “the breaking of the bread and the prayers”.

 

[babs57]

Something Brother patrick said just hit me. He said the statue of jupiter doesnt even look like Jupiter. Thats priceless .

That’s actually pretty funny. But, what he means is that it doesn’t have any of the things attributed to Jupiter (like a lightning bolt, etc.)

 

[kimberly87]

Brother phoenix, you will have to give me some time to find the historians that corroborate the things you asked me to prove. There were billions of statues to all sorts of the Roman gods all over Rome. Its not crazy to think some got renamed christian names. It saved time and money making all new ones.

 

[kimberly87]

Babs57, maybe some one in here will correct you on your first day of the week thing. Ill leave it to a catholic so you dont accuse me of anti catholic behaviour. Im not really anti catholic. Im not a catholic, and for the reasons im not catholic, im branded as anti catholic. In that vein, im anti protestant too. Im not protestant either, for a myriad of reasons.

 

[pablope]

Brother phoenix, you will have to give me some time to find the historians that corroborate the things you asked me to prove. There were billions of statues to all sorts of the Roman gods all over Rome. Its not crazy to think some got renamed christian names. It saved time and money making all new ones.

As I had posted to you before…here is a clue to help you get started:

newprotestants.com/2babylons.htm

ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html

I suggest you get a hold of his book…he compared the claims with actual research.

*For a number of years my book BABYLON MYSTERY RELIGION was very popular, enjoyed a wide circulation, and was translated into various languages. To this day, we do not cease to receive orders and inquiries about it. Despite its popularity, several years ago we pulled it out of print and now offer a replacement book THE BABYLON CONNECTION?

My original book had some valuable information in it. But it also contained certain teachings that were made popular in a book many years ago, THE TWO BABYLONS, by Alexander Hislop. This book claims that the very religion of ancient Babylon, under the leadership of Nimrod and his wife, was later disguised with Christian-sounding names, becoming the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, two “Babylons"—one ancient and one modern. Proof for this is sought by citing numerous similarities in paganism. The problem with this method is this: in many cases there is no connection.*

 

[babs57]

Babs57, maybe some one in here will correct you on your first day of the week thing. Ill leave it to a catholic so you dont accuse me of anti catholic behaviour. Im not really anti catholic. Im not a catholic, and for the reasons im not catholic, im branded as anti catholic. In that vein, im anti protestant too. Im not protestant either, for a myriad of reasons.

No, actually I think you’ve been very patient.

So, what do you think about my answer to your question about how we are saved? (see end of post #133)

 

[tabycat]

You keep insisting that Catholics bow before ‘graven images’. I think it is definitions you have difficulty with. That’s not uncommon with folks who have no real religious history beyond the last 500 years. VSEDRIVER

I have pics taken from the internet of the faithful on their knees befor statues of Popes an mary and who ever. lets have a hypothetical situation for a moment.

Little child; Mommy, look, that man is bowing down befor that statue.
Mommy; Oh, that man isnt bowing befor that staue.
Little child; But Mommy, hes on his knees in front of that statue.
Mommy; My child, you have difficulties with definitions. .
Little child; What?

But you do not know what is in their hearts; only two do know: God and the ones kneeing

 

[babs57]

Im here. Recovering from fatigue and heat here in so calif. the faithful dont know or dont want to admit that Jupiter was renamed Peter. read history by unbiased authors or just google it. As to this thread, are statues biblical? Yes. Statues are in the bible. They are refered to as graven images. And gods man hezekiah(2kings 18) got rid of all the images in Israel. Anyone who has bothered to open the old testament knows god had a running battle with graven images. Oh, but now they are OK. God changes not. Sound familiar?

Do you want to talk about the statues themselves now? Or are you mostly still concerned about the *bowing/worshipping *thing?

 

[Mystophilus]

I’m surprised that no one has brought up St. John of Damascus’ Apologia Against Those Who Decry Holy Images yet. If you think this is something new which hasn’t been brought up before, think again. The Church in the East has had to endure the Iconoclast controversy (730-787). This is a work from that period, penned by the monk John of Damascus as a response against the Iconoclasts who were actively destroying anything they saw as ‘idolatrous’, and pretty much sums up the theology on images.

I did bring it up, but it either got overlooked in the flood, or got ignored for failing to match someone’s unfounded preconceptions about what “everyone knows”.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Im here. Recovering from fatigue and heat here in so calif. the faithful dont know or dont want to admit that Jupiter was renamed Peter. read history by unbiased authors or just google it. As to this thread, are statues biblical? Yes. Statues are in the bible. They are refered to as graven images. And gods man hezekiah(2kings 18) got rid of all the images in Israel. Anyone who has bothered to open the old testament knows god had a running battle with graven images. Oh, but now they are OK. God changes not. Sound familiar?

Jupiter was renamed Peter? Oh come ON now. ‘Unbiased authors?’ How about a list?

In searching through TEN pages of 'Google search there is not a single reputable HISTORICAL AUTHOR given. The least culpable are honest enough to say that “some people SAY”, but no where go on to say who that ‘some’ is.

Where are the primary sources that list who made the statue, what ‘temple’ it was found in, which Pope ‘claimed it’ as St. Peter, etc? There are plenty of real scholars out there, how come the only places we see this claim are antiCatholic web sites and media sites stupid enough to cut and paste?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You keep insisting that Catholics bow before ‘graven images’. I think it is definitions you have difficulty with. That’s not uncommon with folks who have no real religious history beyond the last 500 years. VSEDRIVER

I have pics taken from the internet of the faithful on their knees befor statues of Popes an mary and who ever. lets have a hypothetical situation for a moment.

Little child; Mommy, look, that man is bowing down befor that statue.
Mommy; Oh, that man isnt bowing befor that staue.
Little child; But Mommy, hes on his knees in front of that statue.
Mommy; My child, you have difficulties with definitions. .
Little child; What?

And bowing down to someone or something does not mean you worship them.

Or else there are a lot of people **at a good old-fashioned square dances who are worshipping their partners and their corners!!! **
(caller: Bow to your partners, bow to your corners. . .)

 

[Farsight001]

Brother phoenix, you will have to give me some time to find the historians that corroborate the things you asked me to prove. There were billions of statues to all sorts of the Roman gods all over Rome. Its not crazy to think some got renamed christian names. It saved time and money making all new ones.

I believe no amount of time will provide you with the historians you claim exist. You must understand that some of us here are historians. We know and have heard every one of your claims a hundred times before. Many of us have already researched them heavily, looked at the sources the people who make the claims use, found them faulty, and thus dismissed the claims. There is, flat out, no evidence to support any of your claims of a pagan connection to the Church.

Also, there were not billions of statues then. There are not billions of statues even today. Back then, a billions statues would be pretty much at the very least, two statues for every man, woman, and child on the face of the earth. Considering the were all hand carved by professional artists back then, and took years to make one. It is physically impossible that there were billions or even millions of statues then.

Babs57, maybe some one in here will correct you on your first day of the week thing. Ill leave it to a catholic so you dont accuse me of anti catholic behaviour. Im not really anti catholic. Im not a catholic, and for the reasons im not catholic, im branded as anti catholic. In that vein, im anti protestant too. Im not protestant either, for a myriad of reasons.

You are not branded as anti-Catholic simply for not being Catholic. You are branded anti-Catholic for your tired, unoriginal claims about the Catholic Church that we only ever hear from the most virulent anti-Catholics out there and because you are repeating these claims as though they are obviously true when there is no evidence for them. When we state that your claims are untrue, you simply suggest that we refuse to admit facts, when in reality, we have investigated the issue far, FAR more than you have.

And btw, by definition, you are protestant. The five choices are Catholic, Orthodox, JW, Mormon, and protestant. You appear to be either an SDA, or a seventh day baptist, or some other sort of seventh day Christian. That is, by definition, a protestant.

 

[TEPO]

Brother patrick, jupiter wasnt mislabeled. it was done on purpose. Constantine mixed pagan things with christian things to keep the people happy. Everybody knows this. The sabbath is saturday but the CC made their devotees think its sunday, the day of the sun worshipers. Thats why you see so many sun images all over the CC. the woman with child is pagan in origin. Now its called baby Jesus and Mary. None of that matters. Being born again is all that matters

If you really believe these things, then you’re going to need to back it up with some credible sources… If that’s not possible, then these claims are nothing more than conspiracy theories.

BTW, please describe these “sun images” that you claim to see all over the CC. I’ve never seen them…

 

[patrick457]

I did bring it up, but it either got overlooked in the flood, or got ignored for failing to match someone’s unfounded preconceptions about what “everyone knows”.

We should call attention to it, don’tcha think?