Statues HELP Please

  • Thread starter Thread starter wk3096
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

wk3096

Guest
so my friend and I are having this heated debate and I can’t seem to get it through his head. I am praying for him, but … So this is what has happened so far.

Friend: The Catholic Church CREATES and BOWS Down to Statues
Deuteronomy 27:15 “CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.” Deuteronomy 16:22
“Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES.”1 Thessalonians 1:9“How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God.”

Me: 1st of all we do not worship statues. I want you to prove to me that we are worshiping statues. 2nd bowing does not mean worshiping. Bowing is to show respect to someone. So basically if I am bowing to my mom because of my culture, you are saying I am worshiping my mom? I don’t think so. The last perosn I would worship is my mom. GET YOUR FACT STRAIGT. CATHOLICISM is the church Jesus as set when he was to be crucified he told Peter to build his church and the catholics has been around since then.

Friend: Your interpetation is not from the Holy Ghost, King of All Knowledge, but it is of YOU. Check the 10 commandments, what does it say?
DONT CREATE…Does ur Church, YES=SIN
DONT BOW DOWN TO THEM…does ur Church, YES= SIN

I know yall dont worship them, but yall bow down to them why??? WHAT THE FREAK IS THE POINT? Showing respect to a person who isnt in the statue? and Guess what that statue isnt even that person, its another man who the artist assumes they look alike, so ur bowing down to a look-like…also Praying is Worshipping…and where does it say Peter asstablish the Catholic Church?
 
Friend’s Friend: Bowing your knee IS worship. You might not have it in your mind that your worshiping them, but thats where catholicism has you fooled. Your worshipping them and you didnt even know it. THEY FOOLED YOU! Catholics also pray to them.NO! You can not get closer to God by praying to people who have onced sin. They are no different from you, No, my bad, they are, because they are redeemed. But the thing is, Peter, Paul, John, all of them are redeemed, YES, them! But the statues you bow to are not, you know why? because they arent even the saints! They fooled you AGAIN! They are false gods. PAGAN gods! Catholicism has rituals, making them a CULT. God doesnt have cult memebers. He has followers of Christ. That is why we are called CHRISTIANS! why would we be called catholics. Im telling you, its a cult bruh. ITS EVIL. I dont mean to condemn you, Im just correcting you so you can know the truth man. This isnt an arguement. This is a man that loves God trying to help a blind man get to Jesus so he can finally see TRUTH. knowledge and TRUTH. God bless you man.

Me:Ok, (Friend’s Name), sorry for late replay, I have been busy at what your friend call “fools” church…

I want you to prove to me where it say “we are bowing down and worshiping statues”. Some people in the Catholic church might make statues as professional sculptors or as a hobby, and some might bow in prayer in front of them. But that doesn’t mean the whole Church does it. In Logic, this is called the Fallacy of Composition, assuming something is true of the whole because it is true of some of the parts. See here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

You quoted this awsome bible verse, Deuteronomy 27:15 “CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.”

You are putting in caps what you think is important and not getting the full image here. In English there is something called adjective, what that means is when I say ‘park the blue truck not the red truck’ the word ‘red’ and ‘blue’ are critical. So let’s look at our adjectives. What God doesn’t like is a GRAVEN or MOLTEN Image that man puts in a SECRET PLACE. So what is graven or molten image that man keeps in a secret place?? an idol.Basically, God doesn’t want the Hebrews making an idol of HIM and worshiping it as if it were God Himself.

From your definiation, you are saying “No making statues EVER!!” then I hope you also condemns the Lincoln Memorial and all the other statues in DC as sinful too. Simply put, we don’t make idols, nor do we put them in a secret or even sacred place. They’re statues of famous Saints, and they’re public.

Another bible verse you quoted is Deuteronomy 16:22
“Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES.”

Same thing. I hope you don’t own any pictures of dead relatives, any paintings, and I really hope you never goes to an art museum. Obviously, God is against IDOLS made to be substituted in the place of worshiping HIM. God doesn’t care if we keep a picture of a Saint in our house any more than He’s care if we keep a picture of George Washington over the fireplace. It’s not the fact that we have images, its how we use them.

When you told me “Your interpretation is not from the Holy Ghost, King of All Knowledge, but it is of YOU.” I want to say Says who? How do you know your interpretation is from the Holy Spirit? Can youprove that? The Mormons say they’re guided by the Holy Spirit. So does the Catholic Church. How do we know who’s lying or being deceived?

When you told me to check the 10 commendments I did, I am not sure which version you are using but my verson doesn’t say “DONT CREATE…Does ur Church, YES=SIN
DONT BOW DOWN TO THEM…does ur Church, YES= SIN “

What commandment says don’t make any statues at all and never bow down in prayer in front of them? I must have missed that one. According to the commandments I have, it seems that as long as I worship God alone, I’m fine. It doesn’t matter if I pray in a tree, or on a train, or standing on my head, or in front of a statue factory. WHO I worship matters, not what I happen to look like when I’m doing it privately.
 
Me continue:

The when you said “but yall bow down to them why??? WHAT THE FREAK IS THE POINT? Showing respect to a person who isnt in the statue? and Guess what that statue isnt even that person, its another man who the artist assumes they look alike, so ur bowing down to a look-like…” I guess you have never been down to any of the memorials in DC. During veteran’s day, thousands of people come down or show up at WWII memorial, Vietnam memorial, Korean Memorial, etc… and a thousand others and kneel or bow down in front of those statues, leave flowers, and pray to God thanking them for the honorable sacrifice that was made by those soldiers. They don’t bow down TO the statues, or leave flowers FOR the statues or even think that those statues look anything like their loved ones. It’s a matter of honoring their memory with a moment of prayerful silence.

So yeah, that’s the FREAKING point. Showing respect for those people who aren’t IN the statues, but in whose memory those statues were made. By coming before those monuments, we show respect for those who honorably sacrificed their lives so that we might be free. The same is true for the Catholic Church. We make statues in honor of those Christians who were great witnesses to Christ and we celebrate their memory on given days of the year. We might leave flowers, we might bow down in prayer… but it’s not all about the statue, it’s about God and His good work in the lives of the saints. That’s what the statue represents. Also, because we realize that these people have been saved, they live with God forever in heaven. And because they’re still ALIVE in heaven, they can pray for us and our needs. And because people in heaven can hear us, we can ask them to pray for us just like when you ask your neighbor to pray for you. So yeah, it’s no big deal. It’s all about Jesus in the end, and we’re not worshiping the Saints or the Statues, just honoring their memory and asking them to pray for us, just like we ask anyone else in our church to pray for us.
 
me continue:

Also when you said praying is worshipping, I wantto say you are wrong on this as well.

Read Shakespeare. When someone goes before a prince and says “I pray thee my lord prince, grant me this favour:”, he’s really just saying “I ask for your help, prince, to obtain this thing I want.” The word “to Pray” is used to mean “to ask for” or “to beseech” all the time in English literature. It doesn’t always mean “to worship” just like the title “Lord” doesn’t always mean “God”. So when we say we “pray” to the Saints, we mean that we ask them for their prayers, which is not the same thing as praying to worship God.

Last but not least you want to know where it says Peter established the Catholic Church?? you asked for it here is the answer. scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html
just because it says “Catholic” in url don’t disregard it, look at it. It has quotes from bible that tell you where it say that.

I want to ask you one thing, How do you know for sure which books are supposed to be in the Bible?

well, GOD Bless and have a joyful Easter, and I hope you come and see the truth.

Friend: I will answer all of your questions
Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.
If ur interpetation is from the Holy Ghost then u would understand what it is saying. DONT MAKE THEM, dont make anything that you think is in HEAVEn or in HELL, ok point blank, ur Church puts statues that demons can easily go inside and u guys bow down to them…how do I know? Because every Catholic Church does it, find me one Catholic Church that doesnt have statues in it.
Crucify your flesh to the Truth instead of your personal false belief.

Question: SHAKESPEARE…I know exactly what ur talking about, sorry to say but ur COMPLETELY wrong, i know my Old English, My brethren I pray unto thee, or i beseech thee, lend me money…Its asking for a favor…But NO my brother, u guys dont ASK the Saints u guys PRAY to the Saints, u dont just ASK, u Worship the Saints, i know exactly the difference…and if u think ur right what do u say at the end…Amen? If its Amen then guess what, u just pray to that person.

You say there is no “Big Deal” about praying to the Saints, its just asking for help…WHERE DOES YOUR GOD SAY ASK FOR HELP FROM OTHERS WHO HAVE DIED? WHERE DOES IT SAY IT SHOW ME!

If Im correct, JESUS is the one who died on the cross and resurrected for OUR SIns, Jesus is the one who Healed, who casted out demons, who was perfect. To prove u wrong

1 Tim 2:5 For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity–the man Christ Jesus

RECONCILE, Not ur Priest but nothing but by the Grace and Blood of Christ, and if u think different ur not saved. So WHY pray to Dead people when Jesus is the one who does everything for us?
FORGIVENESS, SUPERNATURAL STRENGTH DELIVERENCE, SALVATION, HEALS US…all this IS u Catholics SPIT In the Face of my God saying “JESUS U ARENT ENOUGH, IM GOING TO YOUR HUMAN MOTHER WHO IS A SINNER TO PRAY”.
A false belief is that Mary was perfect…SHOW ME IN THE WORD brother
For those people who do all that stuff at the memorial i could care less, most likely thats idolatry, whats the point of doing that? If they see us in Heaven what can they do for us? Umm last time I checked God Blesses us, so they cant, God forgive me if Im wrong, but God has all the power, so tell me y i should put flowers again…respect, ok cool i can respect ones opinion, but I wont bow down to them, but i will b grateful if someone died for me

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Theres the Lords argument for what u just said on being Completely Free…Ur opinon bro, not Gods which is wrong, u can have Wordly wisdom instead of Godly Wisdom…back up everything u say. God completely sets us free when we give our lives to Christ, noone else, and praying to other characters in the Bible doesnt set u free…unless u wanna back it up.

Repent Bro, Read ur Word more, Happy Easter, Jesus has Risen!

Me: just an fyi, you have been just argueing the same thing, and you really haven’t proved that we actually worship statues. I want you to find where it says we,catholic, worships statues and prove to me that…
  1. All statues are idols.
  2. Bowing is always worshiping.
  3. Kneeling is always worshiping.
  4. The Catholic Church teaches us to worship statues or saints.
Find your proff in here.

usccb.org/catechism/text/

Until you do, I you shouldn’t respond…

Also, you should look at the following.

Bowing as a sign of respect, not worship:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowing

Kneeling as a sign of respect, not worship:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling

“Amen” means truly or verily, not “I’m worshiping you!”:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen

Why praying to the Saints is ok and Biblical:
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

The Saints pray for us:
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

We don’t worship the Saints:
catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

Scriptural Proof for all of the above:
scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

And you also haven’t answered my questions…
  1. How does he know it’s his interpretation and not ours that’s inspired by the Holy Spirit? Prove it.
  2. How does he know what books belong in the Bible? Prove it.
I also want you to answeer these on top of proving the top 4 bulletes on the USCCB website.
 
me continue:

and just an fyi, Shakespearr isn’t old english it is Victorian english, and they look pretty darn different.

Old English is way before Shakespeare, and looks completely different than English today:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English

Then there’s Middle English, which looks a bit more familiar:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English

Then we get to Shakespeare. Oddly enough, Shakespeare’s English is very similar to what would be written in the King James Version of the bible. So when Shakespeare says “pray”, it’s used in the same way as in most English bibles.

Until you prove my points and answer the two question i been asking, I don’t think you should respond, because it is getting nowhere. Oh and also, if you can’ prove it I believe I deserve an apology and the whole catholic community as well. I hope you had a blessed Easter and God Bless bro

Friend’s Friend: Did you not read Exodus 20:4-5? It says not to make yourself any image which is in Heaven or on earth. So the catholic church still disobeys God by making images and statues of so called saints, angels, the dead and we cant forget…Jesus. It also says not to bow down to them or worship them. So even if you say your not worshipping them, your still bowing down to them. which is more disobedience. Disobedience to God is sin. sin equals death.Repent.

Me: No, you are done unless you can also prove that the cathechism tells us and the catholic church teaches us to worship saints or statues on this site. ( The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops) usccb.org/catechism/text/

God Bless as well.

Friend’s Friend: You keep saying praying to the saints is Biblical. No. its not. in Revelation John cant even bow down and pray to the Angel, So what makes you think we can pray to humans? Amen is a finisher for prayer. Dont know what it means, but I can tell you right now that it doesnt mean verily. Its more like “thank you”. Your arguement with the whole old english thing was pointless. you knew what he meant. If shakespeares english is victorian, then its still pretty old So dnt try to discredit his words with that ****

dude. even the pope does it. And your a follower of the pope. If the catholic church didnt teach it. then why do catholics do it.

Thank you!!
 
wk3096 said:
Me continue:

The when you said “but yall bow down to them why??? WHAT THE FREAK IS THE POINT? Showing respect to a person who isnt in the statue? and Guess what that statue isnt even that person, its another man who the artist assumes they look alike, so ur bowing down to a look-like…” I guess you have never been down to any of the memorials in DC. During veteran’s day, thousands of people come down or show up at WWII memorial, Vietnam memorial, Korean Memorial, etc… and a thousand others and kneel or bow down in front of those statues, leave flowers, and pray to God thanking them for the honorable sacrifice that was made by those soldiers. They don’t bow down TO the statues, or leave flowers FOR the statues or even think that those statues look anything like their loved ones. It’s a matter of honoring their memory with a moment of prayerful silence.

So yeah, that’s the FREAKING point. Showing respect for those people who aren’t IN the statues, but in whose memory those statues were made. By coming before those monuments, we show respect for those who honorably sacrificed their lives so that we might be free. The same is true for the Catholic Church. We make statues in honor of those Christians who were great witnesses to Christ and we celebrate their memory on given days of the year. We might leave flowers, we might bow down in prayer… but it’s not all about the statue, it’s about God and His good work in the lives of the saints. That’s what the statue represents. Also, because we realize that these people have been saved, they live with God forever in heaven. And because they’re still ALIVE in heaven, they can pray for us and our needs. And because people in heaven can hear us, we can ask them to pray for us just like when you ask your neighbor to pray for you. So yeah, it’s no big deal. It’s all about Jesus in the end, and we’re not worshiping the Saints or the Statues, just honoring their memory and asking them to pray for us, just like we ask anyone else in our church to pray for us.
Click to expand...
 
The main thing to focus on is the term 'Graven" image and image “God hates”.

Now certainly images such as the golden calf in the dessert by the Israelites after Moses led them out of slavery on the way to the Promised Land, these are easily seen as graven images. False idol, false worship, dead lifeless idol.

Let’s take one of these supposedly “graven” images Catholics always have present, the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Now we know that the angel Gabriel, when he announced the proposed plan of God’s salvation in sending the Messiah, said in essence to Mary, “hail, full of grace”.

Let’s stop her for a second. If an angel of God greets Mary in such a manner, and if God the Creator and Father of all things chose her to carry His beloved Son- can we assume that, looking upon Mary on this day of the Annuciation, that God looked upon Mary and that God did not “hate” looking upon her? I think we can correctly assume that God looked upon Mary with all love, rather than hate, as she gave her fiat, her great amen.

Secondly, there is no one in history other than the Blessed Virgin Mary that conceived a child, let alone the Son of God, without “knowing” man. And, because she trusted in God’s word, not knowing how His plan would come about, and the Shadow of the Most High would come upon her, being with child with no husband at the time…because of this every Christian in the world owes her a debt of gratitude and honor and love for giving us Jesus, for giving us Christianity. Can we display a picture, and image, etc. of her to remind us of all that she did and does for us in intercession before God today?

But we have to ask ourselves - do we think that Jesus, in heaven, loves and honors his mother? Obviously the answer to this is yes. We have to ask - does Jesus consider a statue of His mother, or of various saints who have sacrficed their lives in penance, prayer, and faithfulness to Christ- does He consider them graven? Like a good friend of mine, now with the Lord, said once to some non-catholic friends who questioned him regularly on the apparent 'worship" opr importance of Mary - if you feel close to the Lord - why don’t you ask Him what he thinks of His mother? This particular person had a profound experience and awakening on the issue.

We also have to point out that in the history of Christianity, numerous images were drawn
on walls, in books, in catcaombs, etc., of Jesus and the saints including Mary. Now the early church, being under much persecution and martydom, did not have the great cathedrals in which to display their “images”, but displayed them nonetheless. I hardly think that anyone could walk into the presence of the Apostles or the early Fathers of the church, and say to them, hey your images are “graven”, false idols. Fat chance, to those who raised the dead in Jesus’ name.

Today, the Church is nearly 2,000 years old. We look to the Word of God, all of the history and tradition of the Catholic Church, the Popes, each one in succession to Peter, and all of this enhances and defines our faith. We need images to remind us of our God and how we received the faith, of what our faith entails. That’s all these images really are - and they draw us nearer to God, rather than away from them. When we see the Blessed Virgin Mary, we recall the words of Gabriel, the virgin birth of Jesus, the promise and power of the Father, the words of Elizabeth, who “filled with the Holy Spirit” cried out and praised Mary’s faithfulness and the Son of God in her womb.

As Scott Hahn and some of the many who were once steadily hammering Catholics, and through their own study and prayer were led to understand the Catholic Church was the true Church founded by Christ and passed on from the Apostles, … there are at any point in time 30,000 denominations of “churches” started across the world coming and going, many times led by those interpreting scripture as they see fit… the teaching and beliefs are all over the place…whose interptretation is correct?

The false teaching that Catholics “worship” idols and graven images, was given to us by men, falsely interpreting scripture, sepcifically as it relates to the Church, ane is one of many tools they use, quite frankly, to lead people away from the Catholic Church and to keep people away as well.
 
wk3096 said:
so my friend and I are having this heated debate and I can’t seem to get it through his head. I am praying for him, but … So this is what has happened so far.

Friend: The Catholic Church CREATES and BOWS Down to Statues
Deuteronomy 27:15 “CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.” Deuteronomy 16:22
“Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES.”1 Thessalonians 1:9“How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God.”

Me: 1st of all we do not worship statues. I want you to prove to me that we are worshiping statues. 2nd bowing does not mean worshiping. Bowing is to show respect to someone. So basically if I am bowing to my mom because of my culture, you are saying I am worshiping my mom? I don’t think so. The last perosn I would worship is my mom. GET YOUR FACT STRAIGT. CATHOLICISM is the church Jesus as set when he was to be crucified he told Peter to build his church and the catholics has been around since then.

Friend: Your interpetation is not from the Holy Ghost, King of All Knowledge, but it is of YOU. Check the 10 commandments, what does it say?
DONT CREATE…Does ur Church, YES=SIN
DONT BOW DOWN TO THEM…does ur Church, YES= SIN

I know yall dont worship them, but yall bow down to them why??? WHAT THE FREAK IS THE POINT? Showing respect to a person who isnt in the statue? and Guess what that statue isnt even that person, its another man who the artist assumes they look alike, so ur bowing down to a look-like…also Praying is Worshipping…and where does it say Peter asstablish the Catholic Church?
Click to expand...
We do not worship statues at all. That is Heresy! Statues, and pictures for that matter, are simply there to make us think of the real person represented by that statue or picture, just like we have pictures and statues of people we know… our family members, our past presidents, famous people, etc. For our family members, especially children, looking at their picture brings up all the memories and emotions we attach to that person. When we look at a picture of Jesus or Mary or any of the saints, it brings to mind their lives and what they went through. In the case of the Saints, we think of their life story that we read, and we mentally make a connection to them, through our prayers, asking them to pray to God for us, just like we ask our friends to pray for us. Only thing… the Saints, of which Mary is the first, are much closer to God than we are. They have already earned Heaven and have God’s ear any time they wish. If one would bow down in front of a statue, they certainly are not bowing to the statue but rather to the real person who is represented by that statue or picture. They are all around us all of the time, even though we don’t see them, and they know our thoughts, words and actions.

Your friend is not understanding the Ten Commandments. “I am the Lord your God. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” does not mean that you shouldn’t pray for others, saints or people, to pray for you to God. It means that nothing else is to be more important in your life than God. God is FIRST, and every thing else comes after him. If you are more concerned about your interests, like a football game for example, than going to Mass Sunday AM, or saying your evening prayers, then football has become your God.
 
QueenofPeace23 said:
The main thing to focus on is the term 'Graven" image and image “God hates”.

Now certainly images such as the golden calf in the dessert by the Israelites after Moses led them out of slavery on the way to the Promised Land, these are easily seen as graven images. False idol, false worship, dead lifeless idol.
Click to expand...
Graven means something made by hand, carved of wood or stone. I know it has a connotation of negative, but that is what graven means. So yes, we do have graven images of Jesus and the saints. Many are cut from wood and stone, although many modern ones are made through molds.

Anyway, the issue with Exodus is that in the past, people worship the statues themselves. They feel that the statue they have has the power, sort of the same way people think a rabbit’s foot brings them luck. That is why God didn’t want graven images then, because those images back then were the false gods they worshiped. Its akin to superstition today. A lucky coin, 4-leaf clover, etc. Whenever someone assigns power to an inanimate object, or even “idolize” a person, then that is violating this commandment. Its not so much the making of a statue that is the sin, its the worship of the statue itself.

Tell them this, if you look at a photo of your spouse and even kiss the photo, are you cheating on your spouse with a piece of photo paper? If they said that, “that kiss is for the spouse, not the photo paper.” Then our prayer is for God, not the statue.
 
wk3096 said:
Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

If ur interpetation is from the Holy Ghost then u would understand what it is saying. DONT MAKE THEM, dont make anything that you think is in HEAVEn or in HELL
Click to expand...
Your friend seems to be stuck on the idea that Exodus 20:4 means to simply not create a graven image of anything in heaven or on earth, period (as opposed to the commandment meaning not to create such images and then worship them as idols). It is probably worth pointing out to your friend the following:

After God gave the Hebrews this commandment, he instructed them to create images of cherubim to place above the Ark of the Covenant (i.e., images of things in heaven; Exodus 25:18-20) and a bronze (or brass, depending on the interpretation) serpent to save them from the venom of the seraph serpents (i.e., an image of something on earth; Numbers 21:4-9).

Moreover, when Solomon created the temple, it was decorated with statues and images of cherubim, palm trees and flowers (1Kings 6:23-34), a representation of the sea (1Kings 6:23-24), statues of oxen (1Kings 6:25), and lions (1Kings 6:29, 36). Are we to presume that when Solomon built the first temple, he was not aware of the Commandment about graven images? Of course not. It was not a problem unless people worshiped them as idols. The same is true for Catholic churches.
wk3096 said:
Me: just an fyi, you have been just argueing the same thing, and you really haven’t proved that we actually worship statues. I want you to find where it says we,catholic, worships statues and prove to me that…
  1. All statues are idols.
  2. Bowing is always worshiping.
  3. Kneeling is always worshiping.
  4. The Catholic Church teaches us to worship statues or saints.
Click to expand...
You make a very good point here. After all, your friend’s opinion about Catholicism does not equate authentic Catholic teaching. To add to this, I will point out that worship is an act of the will. Just because a certain action appears to be worship to someone else does not make it so. Otherwise, the actor Yul Brynner committed the sin of idolatry in the movie The Ten Commandments because he is seen praying to a statue of an Egyptian god. But because he was acting and therefore had no willful intention to engage in actual worship, we know that he was not actually committing idolatry, regardless of the appearance. Also, the person who created this statue did not create it for pagan worship but as a movie prop.
 
wk3096 said:
so my friend and I are having this heated debate and I can’t seem to get it through his head. I am praying for him, but … So this is what has happened so far.

Friend: The Catholic Church CREATES and BOWS Down to Statues
Deuteronomy 27:15 “CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.” Deuteronomy 16:22
“Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES.”1 Thessalonians 1:9“How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God.”

Me: 1st of all we do not worship statues. I want you to prove to me that we are worshiping statues. 2nd bowing does not mean worshiping. Bowing is to show respect to someone. So basically if I am bowing to my mom because of my culture, you are saying I am worshiping my mom? I don’t think so. The last perosn I would worship is my mom. GET YOUR FACT STRAIGT. CATHOLICISM is the church Jesus as set when he was to be crucified he told Peter to build his church and the catholics has been around since then.

Friend: Your interpetation is not from the Holy Ghost, King of All Knowledge, but it is of YOU. Check the 10 commandments, what does it say?
DONT CREATE…Does ur Church, YES=SIN
DONT BOW DOWN TO THEM…does ur Church, YES= SIN

I know yall dont worship them, but yall bow down to them why??? WHAT THE FREAK IS THE POINT? Showing respect to a person who isnt in the statue? and Guess what that statue isnt even that person, its another man who the artist assumes they look alike, so ur bowing down to a look-like…also Praying is Worshipping…and where does it say Peter asstablish the Catholic Church?
Click to expand...
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp
 
=wk3096;7801140]so my friend and I are having this heated debate and I can’t seem to get it through his head. I am praying for him, but … So this is what has happened so far.
Click to expand...
Friend: The Catholic Church CREATES and BOWS Down to Statues
Deuteronomy 27:15 “CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.” Deuteronomy 16:22
“Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES.”1 Thessalonians 1:9“How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God.”
Click to expand...
Me: 1st of all we do not worship statues. I want you to prove to me that we are worshiping statues. 2nd bowing does not mean worshiping. Bowing is to show respect to someone. So basically if I am bowing to my mom because of my culture, you are saying I am worshiping my mom? I don’t think so. The last perosn I would worship is my mom. GET YOUR FACT STRAIGT. CATHOLICISM is the church Jesus as set when he was to be crucified he told Peter to build his church and the catholics has been around since then.
Click to expand...
Friend: Your interpetation is not from the Holy Ghost, King of All Knowledge, but it is of YOU. Check the 10 commandments, what does it say?
DONT CREATE…Does ur Church, YES=SIN …
Click to expand...
OK how about taking God’s Word for it. You do beleive in Gods WORD don’t you:D

Exodus 25: God Commanding Moses how to build HIS ARK of the Covenant: " And this is the offering which you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze, And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it, and you shall make upon it a molding of gold round about. And you shall cast four rings of gold for it and put them on its four feet, two rings on the one side of it, and two rings on the other side of it. You shall make poles of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold. Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. And you shall make two cherubim of gold;[That means statues of ANGELS] of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. You shall overlay it with pure gold, and make a molding of gold around it."

And how about this 🙂

**Num.21: 8 **“And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.”

So my friend why is it OK for God and NOt for us 🤷 Because your friend does not understand how to trsnslate the Bible. What God forbids IS FOREIGN gods; Idol-worship that TAKES AWAY from [rather than adding TOO in these examples] TRUE God Worship.

**2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 ** “For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

**Eph.3: 9 to 12 ** “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: THEE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him. “

**Eph. 4: 1-7 **“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, **one God **and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

With Charity: PRINT this and give it to read.👍

The Key’s to the gate of heaven are with the CC… So all access to heaven must be through the CC…** Mt. 16:19**

God Bless my friend…

Romans 10:17 "Rom.10: 17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.”

Pat
 
God commanded the creation of graven images in the Temple and on the Ark. He commanded a graven image to be made in the desert (the bronze serpent). Clearly, God does not have a problem with graven images when they are used for His glory. He even used the bronze serpent for healing. This is the context in which Catholics make a statue… it is to give glory to God (even if we are reverencing the Blessed Virgin or another saint, that is still giving glory to God because He gave those people to us!). Anyway, it is when an image starts to be worshipped that God has a problem. The bronze serpent, for example, is a great example of what not to do with graven images. Here was something holy and good, a gift of healing from God, that had to later be destroyed because people had started to worship it!

We bow before God who is everywhere. When presented with a statue that reminds us of His mighty works, of His great love, and of His Mercy, it is appropriate to give Him homage. I am sometimes prompted to kneel to God because I see a statue of Jesus or the stations of the cross. I do not believe the statues hold any Divine power, thus it is nonsensical (IMO) to think I am worshiping a wood carving.
 
My Family always explains it in this real world way:

(1) Lets say you wanted something (i.e. a car)
And you REALLY WANT IT. The way you would go about it is to talk to Mom. Now, Mom has a way of asking Dad for things in a way that makes sense. So, you talk to Mom and tell her of your great desire for the car and how great it would be for you …etc.
Mom then agrees to talk to Dad.

(2) So, now you have help from Mom, great!! But you think you still need something to convince Dad further, so you go to your brother for help. It just so happens that he has an auto body shop and agrees to look at the car and if it is any good, agrees to talk to Dad. Now my brother is going to help, GREAT!!! But one more thing, Dad always liked the way my sister handles financial matters so I ask my sister to help me figure out the numbers. She does, and agrees to present the proposal to Dad. You run around asking for help from anyone you know and they all agree to help.

(3) Eventually after you talk to Dad, then in comes Mom, older brother and sister and they all present the car issue to dad and explain in detail the proposal to him. Dad thinks about it and he AGREES!!!

(4) The moral of this story is that YOU (God’s Child) want something from DAD (God the Father) you ask for help from anyone that will listen (by praying). You ask for help from the people you are closest to (your brothers and sisters in Christ, the saints more specifically your patron saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary your Mother in heaven) they all go to Dad to intercede for YOU. YOU are asking for help and they are all willing to help, all you have to do is ask!!! It doesn’t mater if it is a car or a 40 ft yacht. They all are just waiting to help you get to where they are in the joy and in the splendor of heaven. They are all willing to help. The car represents you trying to go someplace in life but you need special graces, virtues and the divine OK to do what you think is best.

Now this is just a real-life example showing how the saints act in our day-to-day lives. In my little experience, it is sometimes necessary to talk in parables like Jesus did to the Jews who couldn’t understand the full truth yet. He made it simpler for them to under stand. Maybe you need to show him your own parable?

Remember to keep praying to the patron saints 🙂 like:
Code: 
Impossible causes
· St. Frances Xavier Cabrini
· St. Rita of Cascia
Learning
· St. Ambrose
Scholars
· St. Venerable Bede
· St. Brigid of Kildare
Theologians
· St. Alphonsus Liguori
· en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

And of course The Holy Spirit!!!

Try to follow St. Monica’s example
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_%28Christian_saint%29

God Bless
:knight1:Knight For God:knight1:
 
wk3096 said:
so my friend and I are having this heated debate and I can’t seem to get it through his head. I am praying for him, but … So this is what has happened so far.

Friend: The Catholic Church CREATES and BOWS Down to Statues
Deuteronomy 27:15 “CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.” Deuteronomy 16:22
“Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES.”1 Thessalonians 1:9“How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God.”

Me: 1st of all we do not worship statues. I want you to prove to me that we are worshiping statues. 2nd bowing does not mean worshiping. Bowing is to show respect to someone. So basically if I am bowing to my mom because of my culture, you are saying I am worshiping my mom? I don’t think so. The last perosn I would worship is my mom. GET YOUR FACT STRAIGT. CATHOLICISM is the church Jesus as set when he was to be crucified he told Peter to build his church and the catholics has been around since then.

Friend: Your interpetation is not from the Holy Ghost, King of All Knowledge, but it is of YOU. Check the 10 commandments, what does it say?
DONT CREATE…Does ur Church, YES=SIN
DONT BOW DOWN TO THEM…does ur Church, YES= SIN

I know yall dont worship them, but yall bow down to them why??? WHAT THE FREAK IS THE POINT? Showing respect to a person who isnt in the statue? and Guess what that statue isnt even that person, its another man who the artist assumes they look alike, so ur bowing down to a look-like…also Praying is Worshipping…and where does it say Peter asstablish the Catholic Church?
Click to expand...
The verses in Deuteronomy means we are not to makes images or things for superstituous purposes. Here’s some where God orders them made:
  1. Ex 25:18-19 – “ Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two
    sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the other side, and the other on the other.”
    These cherubim were on top of the Ark and the Lord ordered it! (Images “In Heaven above")
  2. Num 21:8-9 – “And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for
    a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live.” The Lord orders Moses
    to make this serpent. Notice: For some 800 years, the Israelites venerated this serpent. They began worshipping this serpernt and it was, therefore, condemned in 2 Kings 18:4. (Images “In the Earth”) Notice: In John 3:14, the “Serpent” was a “Type” of Jesus. It became a source of grace. The “Serpent” in Gen 3:1 was the source of sin; the “Serpent” in Num 21:8 was the source of grace.
  3. 1 Kings 6:29 – Diverse figures carved on the walls. – Fish? (Images “Under the Earth”) In 1 Kings 9:1-3, God sanctifies (blesses) the temple. He wouldn’t bless the temple he didn’t approve of.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top