Statues

[GramdpaMunster]

The Catholic church approves of statues and you see many statues and images of Jesus, Mary, and various saints. I’ve read that the Bible passage that is used to support this is the old testament passage where God directs Moses to build statues of Cherubim for the hebrew sanctuary. I have to wonder why the hebrews prior to Jesus didn’t have any statues of old trestament characters, however. At least I’ve never heard of statues of Moses, Elijah, or one of the prophets. Doesn’t the fact that images of old testament prophets don’t exist tend to support the idea that the hebrews did not believe that religious imagery was acceptable?

 

[DOShea]

I don’t think they did view personal statues as acceptable.

It’s not so much the statue, but what you did with it. It was worshiping the statue as a deity that was the sin. We don’t really know if there were any or not that far back, though none are mentioned nor have been found. This could be due to the cost and the effort it would take to make one. Just quarrying the stone for a good sized statue would have been beyond the economic means of the average person, just as it is today. So individual carvings would have been small. Kings and high officials might have the means, but they would likely not do it in that society to call attention to themselves, the Jewish kingship being an appointed (by God) position and all.

Recall also that all around them were cultures awash in statues that were primarily representing either some kind of pagan deity or marking an important event such as a military triumph. The Jews were mainly a culture that focused around the Temple, which to them was a center of not just religion but also economic, civic, and cultural expression. They wouldn’t really have any need for something like that, and owing to their past history in the time of the Exodus, I can’t imagine someone coming up with the idea for a statue of themselves being acceptable among their elders and priests.

The coins used to pay the annual temple tax (Exodus 31) was a coin that had the image of a palm tree on it, as they were not allowed to have coinage with any graven image on it inside the temple. This is what the money changers did in the temple, converted Roman coins (with an image of Caesar on them) into shekels with the palm image. Perhaps it was thinking along those lines that resulted in no personal statues. Or, maybe they had plenty of Roman ones to look at.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Doesn’t the fact that images of old testament prophets don’t exist tend to support the idea that the hebrews did not believe that religious imagery was acceptable?\

**But we’re not Hebrews, are we?

Do you observe the dietary, clothing, agricultural, and other restrictions of the OT?

Among other things, these forbid a man to sleep in the same bed with his wife during her period.

Be consistent, sir!

Something else to consider: Peter, James, and John recongized Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. How could they have done so, had there not been some kind of iconographic (as Orthodox call it) tradition so they would have known who they were?**

 

[Magnus1981]

I have to wonder why the hebrews prior to Jesus didn’t have any statues of old trestament characters, however. At least I’ve never heard of statues of Moses, Elijah, or one of the prophets. Doesn’t the fact that images of old testament prophets don’t exist tend to support the idea that the hebrews did not believe that religious imagery was acceptable?

This may be of interest to you:

*“Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; that build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the monuments of the just.” *- Matthew 23:29 (D-R)

While scripture does not explicitly reveal who these “just” are for which the monuments are adorned, but from this we can summise that such monuments were in fact made and existed in the time of Christ.

 

[Javl]

\Doesn’t the fact that images of old testament prophets don’t exist tend to support the idea that the hebrews did not believe that religious imagery was acceptable?\

**But we’re not Hebrews, are we?

Do you observe the dietary, clothing, agricultural, and other restrictions of the OT?

Among other things, these forbid a man to sleep in the same bed with his wife during her period.

Be consistent, sir!

Something else to consider: Peter, James, and John recongized Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. How could they have done so, had there not been some kind of iconographic (as Orthodox call it) tradition so they would have known who they were?**

It should be kept in mind that the Jews of that day took God’s word as absolute and
obeyed “The Law”. This is the second commandment, “Do not make for youselves images of anything in heaven or on earth…” ( Ex 20:4 ). The Jews of today still follow
that law. We, in turn have statues and icons as reminders, as we have pictures of our loved ones in our wallets. We do not pray to, or worship, these statues and icons but
pray only to those that they represent for their help, since they are closer to God than
we are.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[GramdpaMunster]

Peter, James, and John recongized Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. How could they have done so, had there not been some kind of iconographic
I think they were recognized by divine revalation. The images would not necessarily be accurate even if they existed. Imagine that you saw Jesus walking down the street today. Would he have long hair? A Beard? How tall would he be?
As for your first point it is valid, we are not under Judaic Law as it says in the book of Acts,

 

[GramdpaMunster]

“Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; that build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the monuments of the just.” - Matthew 23:29 (D-R)

The monuments of the just could have been a statue. Have any been found?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

“Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; that build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the monuments of the just.”

• Matthew 23:29 (D-R)

The monuments of the just could have been a statue. Have any been found?

Has Noah’s Ark been found? If yay or nay, do you still believe that God saved His people via Noah’s Ark?

Back to the topic, statues in themselves aren’t inherently evil. I have a statuette of in the likeness of my Chihuahua mix; the statuette recalls the likeness of my dog but that is not the same as worshiping my dog or the statuette.

Furthermore, even if the statues of Moses and the prophets didn’t exist, what does that prove? Would God have disapproved? I could say yes, you could say no…No concrete evidence such statues exist to my knowledge; it’s an argument from silence. Speculation can hashed at best.

Let’s us deal with the evidence we do have. There’s religious imagery upon a holy item. Religious imagery that God himself commanded. Do you approve?

 

[JustaServant]

Ex. 25
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

After giving the commandments to Moses He tells him to make golden statues of angels that will go on top of the Ark of the Covenant. The cherubims are definitely “in heaven above”. Surely God would not contradict his commandments with the very thing that was made to contain them.
The idea that Catholics are idolaters because statues exist in church is using selective reasoning to further an anti-catholic agenda.
The sin is in worshiping and serving an image/statue as a god, not simply in the existence of a statue.
Do we worship the images in Churches? Saint Thomas Aquinas explains quite well: “Religous worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images** leading us on to God incarnate**. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image,** but tends toward that whose image it is**.” (Summa Theologica, II-II, 81, 3 ad 3)

 

[FCEGM]

The Catholic church approves of statues and you see many statues and images of Jesus, Mary, and various saints. I’ve read that the Bible passage that is used to support this is the old testament passage where God directs Moses to build statues of Cherubim for the hebrew sanctuary. I have to wonder why the hebrews prior to Jesus didn’t have any statues of old trestament characters, however. At least I’ve never heard of statues of Moses, Elijah, or one of the prophets. Doesn’t the fact that images of old testament prophets don’t exist tend to support the idea that the hebrews did not believe that religious imagery was acceptable?

In the Incarnation of God as the Man Jesus, the Living Image of God became visible. Representations of Him and His deeds (including His Mother and all who are His handiwork of Grace) and His Mysteries, therefore, are not only allowed but desirable. The Church is only imitating what God Himself has done. It is the Incarnation of God that is the key factor in determining if sacred images may be used.

A number of years ago - and in another forum - a gentleman posted the following which I think is extremely helpful in understanding the use of icons and statues:

The Old Testament prohibitions (which are quite strict) against the creation of images, are similar to Israelitic rules pertaining to “kashrut” (koser; meaning, “that which is fit”) in general; they are pedagogical.

The Israelites were a people mired with pagan influences, dwelling in a carnal and darkened world. According to the Great Prophet of the Old Covenant, Moses the God-seer, the Israelites were an extremely stubborn people, and even in his own lifetime they rebelled against him and God (Deuteronomy 31:27). Thus the Law they received, was harsh, to ensure they’d stay on the right path (and very often even this was not enough.)

They were given dietary laws which were strictly enforced, so that they couldn’t even sit at the table of a pagan, let alone fraternize with him. They were absolutely forbidden to marry foreign wives (a great sin which King Solomon was punished for) for this reason (save those women would convert, as did happen a few times in the Old Testament; one of our Lord’s ancestors, Ruth, was in fact a covert to the Old Covenant). These laws were needed in their regard, to keep them from the abominations of the pagans.

This included the fetishistic idolatry of pagans, and their carnal notions about spiritual things. The pagans envisioned divinity as being something degraded and human; their “gods” subject to the worst forms of human pettiness, and moral debauchery. The common belief of the people, envisioned “gods” who copulated, had spats, ate, drank, killed each other, etc.

This is very foreign to any true idea about the Divinity. Thus, there were strict prohibitions (enforced with varying degrees of severity in Jewish history) against making images, or showing them veneration, to avoid the danger of making a mockery of God, and the fetishism of the pagans.

Given that the Israelites were a people who, despite the theophanic fire burning atop Mt.Sinai, and the great miracles they’d witnessed, still worshipped the idol of the golden calf, shows such severity was needed. (Exodus chapter 32) So outrageous was their conduct, that God was prepared (according to Exodus 32) to annihilate the Israelites, and let Moses start over again somewhere else (but Moses supplicated on their behalf, so a lesser punishment was allowed.)

Despite all of this, we do see that in the Old Testament, even under the Old Covenant, there were sacred images (greek “icon”). The Ark of the Covenant which God gave specific instructions on how to construct, was itself a “type”, and the statues of the Cherubim on the top were certainly representations (indeed, representations of something which is in fact spiritual, and by it’s nature incorporeal). The vestments worn by the Aaronic Priests had illustrations of vegation on them, and we know that the Temple of Solomon (which God consecrated to Himself) had representations of Cherubim all over the place, a representation of Paradise in the inner area, and two gigantic gold leafed statues of Cherubim in the inner sactuary, between which the Ark of the Covenant was placed.

It can be said, and very correctly, that the entire ritual and Temple worship mandated by the Old Covenant was “iconographic”, both in it’s representations of Angels, and of spiritual ideals like God’s Throne, Heaven, the Heavenly Altar, etc. This is not only not condemned by God in the Old Testament, but was constructed according to His will.

continued. . .

 

[FCEGM]

For believers in God, who are rightly initiated into the New Covenant (made not upon Mt.Sinai, but Mt.Zion, where the house was located that the Last Supper occured in…surrounded not by twelve stone pillars as Moses was, but the twelve Apostles), this iconographical principle (representing in type heavenly things, and mysteries of the Kingdom) is still in force.

Are not the promises and gifts given to the Church greater than that seen in Israel of old? Were they not pointing to the reality of redemption, where as we are familiars with it? While they could only live in hope of the Christ, has He not already come to us? Where as the Israelites could only point to Heavenly things, are we not partakers in them?

Speaking of the righteous men and women who lived before the coming of Christ, St.Paul states,

13 All these died according to faith, not having received the promises but beholding them afar off and saluting them and confessing that they are pilgrims and strangers on the earth.(Hebrews 11:13)

And making a contrast between these persons and the Church, St.Paul adds,
39 And all these, being approved by the testimony of faith, received not the promise:
40 God providing some better thing for us, that they should not be perfected without us.
(Hebrews 11:39-40)

According to Hebrews 12:1, these Saints of the Old Testament (who now, being rescued in death by the power of the Ressurection, have inherited the promise), and for us (by default) all of those who have successfully run the course before us in the New Covenant, exist as a “cloud of witnesses” that “surrounds us”.

This Holy Mystery, lies at the heart of the true Church, and is the reality it participates in, this reality being most clearly shown where and when She gathers to celebrate the Eucharist (which was established on Mt.Zion).

18 For you are not come to a mountain that might be touched and a burning fire and a whirlwind and darkness and storm,
19 And the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, which they that had excused themselves, that the word might not be spoken to them.
20 For they did not endure that which was said: and if so much as a beast shall touch the mount, it shall be stoned.
21 And so terrible was that which was seen, Moses said: I am frighted, and tremble.
22 But you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels,
23 And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:18-24)

The above shows the direct communion which the Church Militant (the Church in this world) has with the Church Triumphant (the Heavenly Church); a union which is made manifest when the Mass is celebrated (the Priest acting in the person of Christ the Offerer, the Bread and Wine seperately consecrated as His Body and Blood, the sacrifice for our sins).

The above also shows, just how superior the life of the Church is, over the Synagogue; how more fruitful the New Covenant is, over the Old (which it in fact came to fulfill and bring to completion; the Old by it’s very symbols and nature, points to the New). Where as the Old Covenant was characterized by severity, and fear, the New Covenant is characterized by fellowship with God as His very sons, being baptized into the eternally begotten Son.

Therefore, just as God hallowed Solomon’s Temple, is it not right to believe that God hallows the Temples which the Church has erected, for the purpose of giving them a place to gather and celebrate the Holy Mass? And just as this Temple had rightful Icons, reprenting Heavenly beings and mysteries, would it not make sense that the Angels and Saints are also represented in our Houses of Prayer? Indeed, are not such representations only giving symbolic form, to that which is in fact VERY REAL and very much present?

As the Apostle teaches, after speaking of our communion with Heaven…
10 We have an altar whereof they have no power to eat who serve the tabernacle. (Hebrews 13:10)

 

[crazzeto]

After giving the commandments to Moses He tells him to make golden statues of angels that will go on top of the Ark of the Covenant. The cherubims are definitely “in heaven above”. Surely God would not contradict his commandments with the very thing that was made to contain them.
The idea that Catholics are idolaters because statues exist in church is using selective reasoning to further an anti-catholic agenda.
The sin is in worshiping and serving an image/statue as a god, not simply in the existence of a statue.
Do we worship the images in Churches? Saint Thomas Aquinas explains quite well: “Religous worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images** leading us on to God incarnate**. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image,** but tends toward that whose image it is**.” (Summa Theologica, II-II, 81, 3 ad 3)

It should be noted, as well that “You shall not make unto you any graven images.” is a commandment unique to protestantism. Again, this is another symptom of hatered for Rome dictating theology, rather than close study of scipture and tradition. I also have it, on the authority of Father Mitch Pakwell (spelling?) from EWTN that both Catholic & Jewish 10 commandments are based on Deuteronomy, the Protestant ones are uniquly based on Exodus.

So the commandment isn’t “don’t make any engraven images of holy things”, as you point out so eloquantly God would have broken his own commandment about 2 seconds after carving it into stone in dictating the specifications for the arch. Rather, the commandment is to not worship false gods, particularly those made of human hands which do not see, and do not hear.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The Catholic church approves of statues and you see many statues and images of Jesus, Mary, and various saints. I’ve read that the Bible passage that is used to support this is the old testament passage where God directs Moses to build statues of Cherubim for the hebrew sanctuary. I have to wonder why the hebrews prior to Jesus didn’t have any statues of old trestament characters, however. At least I’ve never heard of statues of Moses, Elijah, or one of the prophets. Doesn’t the fact that images of old testament prophets don’t exist tend to support the idea that the hebrews did not believe that religious imagery was acceptable?

Do you at least like Iconography? I love it. Statues can be okay, some better than others.
I think the people who could not read many years ago really benefited in a more practical way than people do today having them. Just think about all those people who could not read a bible, or have the luxury of attending church regularly if at all. They must have found it much easier to meditate and pray or even see bible events portrayed in them to remind them of their faith tradition.

 

[Tom]

The Catholic church approves of statues and you see many statues and images of Jesus, Mary, and various saints. I’ve read that the Bible passage that is used to support this is the old testament passage where God directs Moses to build statues of Cherubim for the hebrew sanctuary. I have to wonder why the hebrews prior to Jesus didn’t have any statues of old trestament characters, however. At least I’ve never heard of statues of Moses, Elijah, or one of the prophets. Doesn’t the fact that images of old testament prophets don’t exist tend to support the idea that the hebrews did not believe that religious imagery was acceptable?

As noted earlier, it isn’t the image that is sinful, it is the worship of the image as God that is sin!
The following is an excerpt from:
myjewishlearning.com/culture/2/Art/History_and_Theory/Jewish_Art_History/Ancient.shtml
www.myjewishlearning.com:
Sculpture in Ancient Israel
The Bible, as the foundation and repository of Jewry’s collective memory, features many descriptions of work of sculptures and figurative art.
At the entrance to Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem stood 12 cast oxen, bearing on their back the great bronze “sea,” a huge open water tank described in I Kings 7:25. The walls of Solomon’s Temple were also hung with embroidered tapestries of cherubim. A bronze serpent, held to be the work of Moses himself, is referred to twice in the Bible (Numbers 21:82, I Kings 7:29).
Prophets and biblical historians inform us that throughout the Biblical period, sculpture and carving were necessary crafts, practiced in every Israelite settlement. Figures of Baal, Ashtoreth, and Asherah [local deities, among those worshipped by Israelites in the nation’s infancy] were erected alongside the altar on rural high places and on sacred hills and under sacred trees. Homes had their teraphim, figurines of household gods of healing and welfare, which their owners would take with them on long journeys.
The figurative and plastic arts fulfilled an important role in Israelite religio-cultural life. The Bible mentions three sculptors: Aaron makes the golden bull; Betzalel, the churbim, Moses, the bronze serpent. Figurative art since then had decorated Temples to Yahweh [the name given to the monotheistic deity that became–and continues to be–the one God of Israel], private homes, bath-houses, and theaters. The decoration of synagogues in the Second Temple period was influenced by both Jewish tradition and by that of the artist’s host country. Jewish art has always been receptive to outside influence.
Synagogues in the Hellenistic Era
The frescos in the Dura Europos synagogue and the floor mosaics of other synagogues in Israel and the Diaspora testify to the fact that the rich figurative art tradition of the Biblical period continued into the Hellenistic period and played a central role in Jewish religious life.
After the destruction of the Second Temple and especially after Hellensitic armies and culture had conquered the Middle East, the Canaanite cults [which many Israelites continued to worship] disappeared and with them the figures of their gods that had been a feature of Jewish population centers. Even prior to the Temple being destroyed, synagogues were already being build throughout Israel and the Diaspora as communal centers for worship and study. It was long thought that figurative art was confined to floor mosaics, found in early synagogues as early as the fourth century B.C.E. The discovery in the 1930s of the Dura Europos, dating to the third century C.E.–its walls painted with frescos on biblical themes, crowded with representations of biblical characters–profoundly altered that perception.
Hellenistic influence on Jewish art was also prominent in Herod’s restoration of the Jerusalem Temple and in other Jewish public architecture (the synagogue at the Cave of Mahpelah in Hebron, Herodian ampitheaters in Bet She’an and Caesarea, etc).
There are numerous other examples of the penetration of Greek mythological elements into synagogue art. The synagogue at Hamat Tiberias (fourth century B.C.E.) displays a zodiac circle with Helios the su god and his chariot at the center. The most complete representation of Helios at the center of a zodiac circle is in the floor mosaic of the Bet Alpha Synagogue, where Helios is shown driving the four horses of the sun chariot. In the zodiac circle of the Tzipporit synagogue floor mosaic, the sun itself is the driver, one of its rays penetrating into the chariot as though to drive the horses. The fact that these myths made their way into Jewish folklore is evident in many passages of Talmud and Midrash.

 

[Thing]

The Catholic church approves of statues and you see many statues and images of Jesus, Mary, and various saints. I’ve read that the Bible passage that is used to support this is the old testament passage where God directs Moses to build statues of Cherubim for the hebrew sanctuary. I have to wonder why the hebrews prior to Jesus didn’t have any statues of old trestament characters, however. At least I’ve never heard of statues of Moses, Elijah, or one of the prophets. Doesn’t the fact that images of old testament prophets don’t exist tend to support the idea that the hebrews did not believe that religious imagery was acceptable?

We are not living in the Old Testament times. No-one then was allowed to make an image of God; they did not know what He looked like and He did not tell them much about Himself either, - ‘I Am who I Am’, was the enigmatic response to the question What is your name?
But since then things have happened; He *has *actually *Shown *us who He is. Amazingly enough, God has made *the *image of Himself and made it for us to see.
When Christians in the Roman Catacombs painted and carved images of Jesus they were doing no more than God had already done. They were showing other Christians that God had become a man for our sakes.

Sacred Art re. the Saints etc., always points to this truth. ‘God became a man for us, God died for us.’

 

[crazzeto]

We are not living in the Old Testament times. No-one then was allowed to make an image of God; they did not know what He looked like and He did not tell them much about Himself either, - ‘I Am who I Am’, was the enigmatic response to the question What is your name?
But since then things have happened; He *has *actually *Shown *us who He is. Amazingly enough, God has made *the *image of Himself and made it for us to see.
When Christians in the Roman Catacombs painted and carved images of Jesus they were doing no more than God had already done. They were showing other Christians that God had become a man for our sakes.

Sacred Art re. the Saints etc., always points to this truth. ‘God became a man for us, God died for us.’

“do not make engraven images…” was never a commandment (until the ~1600’s):

16 And thou shalt put in the ark the testimony which I will give thee. 17 Thou shalt make also a propitiatory of the purest gold: the length thereof shall be two cubits and a half, and the breadth a cubit and a half. 18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered.

Unless God was saying:

“Thou shalt not make engraven images”

<5 minutes pass>

“Except oh yeah, I need you to make these engraven images of things in heaven”.

 

[Thing]

“do not make engraven images…” was never a commandment (until the ~1600’s):

Unless God was saying:

“Thou shalt not make engraven images”

<5 minutes pass>

“Except oh yeah, I need you to make these engraven images of things in heaven”.

22 Yahweh said to Moses, 'Tell the Israelites this, "You have seen for yourselves how I have spoken to you from heaven.
23 You must not make **gods **of silver to rival me, nor must you make yourselves gods of gold

So… if we don’t make the engraven images ‘gods to rival Him’ then there is no problem?..uch:

 

[crazzeto]

22 Yahweh said to Moses, 'Tell the Israelites this, "You have seen for yourselves how I have spoken to you from heaven.
23 You must not make **gods **of silver to rival me, nor must you make yourselves gods of gold

So… if we don’t make the engraven images ‘gods to rival Him’ then there is no problem?..uch:

Making engraven images can be useful for the purposes of reminding you of what is in heaven, this can aid in worship. God understands this, thus he commanded to add engraven images of Cherebum on the arch as well as with in the temple which (evetually) housed it.

Where you cross the line is in the second half which the protestant 10 commandments lack entirly. Worshiping engraven images as Gods. This theme comes up again and again in the Bible. Paul would face a riot over this issue actually:

Acts 19,

24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver temples for Diana, brought no small gain to the craftsmen; 25 Whom he calling together, with the workmen of like occupation, said: Sirs, you know that our gain is by this trade;

26 And you see and hear, that this Paul by persuasion hath drawn away a great multitude, not only of Ephesus, but almost of all Asia, saying: They are not gods which are made by hands. 27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought, but also the temple of great Diana shall be reputed for nothing; yea, and her majesty shall begin to be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

 

[Thing]

Ahhh… so statues and paintings are’nt gods. The Greeks actually did believe the statue was a god who could control them. I must go now and look for someone who is controlled by their statue.

 

[crazzeto]

Ahhh… so statues and paintings are’nt gods. The Greeks actually did believe the statue was a god who could control them. I must go now and look for someone who is controlled by their statue.

The point… Is that in these days it was common to beleive the status were Gods which should be worshiped. As you see from Acts, so much so that Silversmiths had a whole industry based around this idea. God commanded the Israelites not to fall into this error, though they did many times over.