Status of Orders of Autocepahlous Churches?

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Does the Roman Catholic Church recognize the Orders and other sacraments of the Old Catholics and other Autocephalous churches as ‘valid but illicit’ or as ‘invalid’? It is remarkably difficult to find a straightforward semi-official answer to this using a traditional Web search. Even the Catholic Answers search engine doesn’t recognize the word ‘Autocephalous’ , and seems to think the phrase “Old Catholics” refers to Roman Catholic individuals of advanced age. Thanks!
 
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flameburns623:
Does the Roman Catholic Church recognize the Orders and other sacraments of the Old Catholics and other Autocephalous churches as ‘valid but illicit’ or as ‘invalid’? It is remarkably difficult to find a straightforward semi-official answer to this using a traditional Web search. Even the Catholic Answers search engine doesn’t recognize the word ‘Autocephalous’ , and seems to think the phrase “Old Catholics” refers to Roman Catholic individuals of advanced age. Thanks!
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Flame,

My sister Rose’s suggestion may produce an answer, but it’s likely to be focused on the Autocephalous Orthodox churches simply because to us (of the Byzantine Forum), those are very relevant to us. I’m presuming from your comment that, other than the OCs, you are interested in what are sometimes called
“non-Roman” Catholic Churches, but more ordinarily termed “independent Catholic” (and the counterpart “independent Orthodox”) churches (and sometimes “vagante” Churches) - which might be why you aren’t getting any relevant hits on web searches using “autocephalous”.

These churches are a special interest of mine and I have posted bits and pieces on them here, in response to various queries. You may find those by clicking on my name and viewing “all posts by” - but given the number of my posts, that could be tedious 😃 .

The short answer to your direct question is “yes” and “no” 😛 . At the moment, I have to run out, but will answer you better later this evening.

Many years,

Neil
 
So that we’re clear:

I’m reading about a number of Autocephalous churches currently which are Western in orientation and generally orthodox (little ‘o’) in teaching and practice, though nearly all ordain women. A few ordain active homosexuals/lesbians or have a no-ask/no-tell polity, aparently. Others expressly forbid ordaining active gays and/or performing same-sex unions. Most acknowledge 7 sacraments and affirm the Creeds of the first 7 centuries, though they borrow more heavily from Anglicanism than from Romanism. Usually they can point to a ‘line of succession’ going back through Ultrecht to some pope or th’other, and they may hold secondary lines of succession via an Eastern rite. They apparently affirm that the Roman Papacy has transgressed historical bounds in it’s assertion of authority over all Christendom. Hope this nails down my question better. Irish: I did track down some of your posts. As you say, you’ve got many such so going back more than a few months was wearisome. Thanks in advance for taking time to answer my question.
 
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flameburns623:
Does the Roman Catholic Church recognize the Orders and other sacraments of the Old Catholics and other Autocephalous churches as ‘valid but illicit’ or as ‘invalid’?
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Flame,

Was ready to post and crashed (why I should compose in Word and then paste), so I’ll try again.

As I said, your use of “autocephalus” caught me off-guard. You probably know that it translates as “self-headed”, transliterates as “self-governing”. Ordinarily, it’s applied only to Orthodox Churches, although you might see it as a self-descriptor by some “independent Catholic” churches. CNEWA defines it well at:

Catholic Near East Welfare Association - Autocephalus Churches

Of the types of Churches about which you are asking, there are 2 which Rome has determined to have valid apostolic succession, orders, and sacraments:
  • Old Catholic Church - Utrecht Confession
  • Polish National Catholic Church
Polish National Catholic Church

The USCCB is engaged in active dialogue with the PNCC and asked Rome to formally determine the validity of the PNCC’s apostolic succession, orders, and sacraments. Rome reviewed the matter and declared all three aspects to be valid.

The PNCC began in the US, at the turn of the 20th century, in response to a well-founded belief that there was little concern for the pastoral care of Polish Catholic immigrants by the primarily Irish and German Catholic hierarchy of the time. Similar sentiments on the part of other ethnic groups led to formation of the
  • Lithuanian National Catholic Church
  • Czech National Catholic Church
  • Slovak National Catholic Church
Early on, the LNCC, CNCC, and SNCC were incorporated into the PNCC with each having its own hierarch.

In the 1920s, the PNCC exported itself back to its ethnic homeland (the 3 constituent groups were less successful in doing the same, from what I know). Rome’s decision did not examine jurisdictions of the PNCC in Poland and, therefore, does not apply to those. It can be surmised that the decision does apply to the LNCC, CNCC, and SNCC jurisdictions in the US and Canada, as those are fully integrated into the PNCC.

The PNCC is fairly traditional. It differs from the RCC in having both a married clergy and episcopacy. It acknowledges 7 Sacraments, although it considers baptism and confirmation to be a single Sacrament and deems Preaching and Hearing the Word of God as the 7th
.
Mass is generally said in the vernacular and facing the people - both of these changes were introduced pre-Vatican II.

It does not ordain women and broke intercommunion with the Episcopal Church over their decision to do so. Same-sex unions are not blessed and openly gay men are not ordained… The Chuch (and its Lithuanian, Czech, and Slovak counterparts) are almost exclusively ethnic-based in membership.

There are 3 other US Polish “Catholic” entities, of which I’m aware:
  • Polish National Catholic Church of America
  • Polish Old Catholic Rite of North America
  • Mariavite Old Catholic Church
The PNCCA broke from the PNCC; the 2 latter groups have no historical connection with the PNCC and I’ll say more about them when I discuss the Old Catholics. Rome’s decision has no applicability to any of the 3.

It’s difficult to track current information on the PNCCA, since they no longer appear to have an active website. To the best of my recollection, its theology and practice was beginning to diverge from the mainstream. I know that it was ordaining women, and it is likely that, if it preserved a valid episcopacy when it seceded, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for it to maintain the validity.

I’ve got to leave it at that for now. I’ll post on the OCC-Utrecht and other OCC and independents tonight.

Many years,

Neil
 
Since the moderators moved this thread w/o leaving a link behind at the ‘apologetics’ section I wonder if Irish Melkite will find this thread again? No criticism–just trying to bump this thread back up so that it can more easily be found
 
Flame,

OK - finally have a chance to at least start this.

Btw, in my post on the PNCC, I referred to it as “fairly traditional” and I may have called it “mainstream”. I’ll use those terms again here, so I probably should define where I drew the line in the figurative sand, especially since some folks will see married clergy, married episcopacy, Mass facing the people, and vernacular as the liturgical language as rather untraditional.

Ordination of female clergy, blessing ‘same-sex unions’, and ordination of openly gay males were the principal considerations that I took into account, as they are points of recurring significant divergence among the groups being discussed. More liberal attitudes toward divorce or artificial contraception weren’t enough to push a group over the line to “untraditional”, as those are fairly common across the genre.

The PNCC and its constituent Churches aside, the other Churches to which you refer really fall into three groupings:
  • Old Catholic Churches
    • Old Catholic Churches - Utrecht Confession (or Communion)
    • Old Catholic Churches - US based
  • “independent Catholic” Churches
  • vagante “Catholic” Churches
If I had to make an educated guess, I’d estimate that, in the US, there are at least 200-300 bodies that fit into one of these categories.

Old Catholic Churches - Utrecht Confession (or Communion)

The Old Catholic Church which originated in Holland and took final organized form in the late 1800s, partly in response to Vatican I, is generally referred to using the term “Utrecht Confession” or “Utrecht Communion.”

A formal review, performed by Rome, as to the validity of orders and sacraments of the Old Catholics of the Utrecht Confession found those and their Apostolic Succussion to be valid. Whether this review was undertaken to validate the issue of the questions raised by the USCCB as to the PNCC or not, I don’t know (a review of OCC-Utrecht orders would have been necessary to the PNCC review, since the PNCC depended on the OCC-Utrecht for its initial episcopal orders.

(Very recently, I heard an, as yet unconfirmed, rumor that some within the Utrecht Union had lately performed ordinations of females, but I haven’t been able to confirm that. If so, it will bring new question to the validity issue.)

There has been a historically curious relationship between the OCC-Utrecht and Rome for many decades. It’s said, with apparently some measure of truth, that Rome has always been able to document claims of Apostolic Succession among the OCC-Uthrecht since, each time it ordains or consecrates anyone, it dutifully posts notification to Rome, which in turn issues and mails back fresh new documents of excommunication.

It should be noted that there are no US-based OCCs which have a direct, formal, canonical relationship with the OCC-Utrecht.

(continued)
 
Any comments on the various and sundry groups listed here:

ind-movement.org/?

I’m actually a candidate for orders in the ICU. I was curious as to whether the extensive trail of Apostolic Succession the autocephalous Churches maintain was recognized by Rome. My guess is, ‘not’, since most of the groups ordain women.
 
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flameburns623:
Any comments on the various and sundry groups listed here:

ind-movement.org/?

I’m actually a candidate for orders in the ICU. I was curious as to whether the extensive trail of Apostolic Succession the autocephalous Churches maintain was recognized by Rome. My guess is, ‘not’, since most of the groups ordain women.
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Flame,

I haven’t forgotten you - will try and finish up on those last groups later today or tonight. I will comment on Father Tony Begonja’s lists, with which I’m very familiar. The short answer to your guess above is “probably not”. What’s the ICU though? (It has a familiar ring, but I’m blanking.)

Many years,

Neil
 
Okay:

What has happened to all of the responses by IrishMelkite? He appears to have vanished along with his responses. Is anyone able to answer my questions? Sorry, but was checking this thread today and suddenly discovered all responses by Melkite removed. None that I had seen appeared to have violated any rules, which leaves this a puzzlement: he wasn’t rude, crude, nor discussing topics ‘out-of-bounds’. Thanks!
 
I don’t know much about western “autocephalous” groups. Among the Orthodox, it designates a type of Church that is not headed by a patriarch. There are three designations: exarchy, autocephalous, and autonomous. An Exarchy is a Church that is outside the home territory of the patriarch, but is directly under the patriarch’s control. An autocephalous Church is under a patriarch, but exercises a great deal of autonomous control (the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese falls in this category, i think), and the last is a Church not under any Patriarch’s control (the Chruch of Greece is like this). (i hope i did not get the last two terms confused, so check on that, but at least the concepts are right). These terms only effect heirarchy and chain-of-command, as it were, if the Church in question is canonical and in communion with other Churches in the Orthodox Communion. If so, they the sacraments and orders are legitimate.

In Christ,
Adam
 
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flameburns623:
Okay:

What has happened to all of the responses by IrishMelkite? He appears to have vanished along with his responses. Is anyone able to answer my questions? Sorry, but was checking this thread today and suddenly discovered all responses by Melkite removed. None that I had seen appeared to have violated any rules, which leaves this a puzzlement: he wasn’t rude, crude, nor discussing topics ‘out-of-bounds’. Thanks!
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Flame,

Hi. I haven’t fallen off the edge of the earth and my previous replies are still here, as far as I can see. My time hasn’t been my own this past week and what little I have had has been co-opted by visiting family (who, in addition to running me ragged, have provided additional competition for use of the PC. Anyway, they have departed for home, so (hopefully) tonight I will manage to get caught up on my neglected e-mail and get at least one additional installment posted here (who knows, maybe I’ll get to finish).

Many years,

Neil
 
ATTENTION MODERATORS: Something very strange is happening to posts by Irish Melkite. This thread shows he attempted to post to this thread ‘today’ but no posts are showing up. One of the moderators checked and indicates that he is in fact still shown as an active member of this forum. Somehow all of his posts have vanished (some 290 of them as I understand it) and he appears to be attempting to post without success. Please be aware of this situation, if you are not already. Thanks!
 
Does anyone else know much about the Old Catholics, Polish National Catholic Churches and the various spin-off groups which have come from those ywo groups? Apparently there are very few books written by or about group members, though I referenced Tony Begonja’s website ealier in this thread, which lists several groups which have a presence on the Internet. Apparently the European groups have preserved valid (but ‘illicit’ or ‘irregular’) lines of succession, but many of the American-based groups have not? Thanks!
 
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