Status of the 1962 Missal after 1969

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I’m not here to pick a fight, but to figure out the facts about this matter.

Pope Benedict XVI wrote that “the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by Bl. John XXIII in 1962 [was] never abrogated” in Summorum Pontificum Art. 1.

Ordinarily, when a new edition of a Missal is promulgated, the older one is expected to be discontinued, no? For example, when Bl. Pope John XXIII added St. Joseph’s name to the Canon in 1962, it was expected that priests would no longer use the older edition of the Roman Missal without this addition, correct?

So why was this process of one edition superseding another not the case in 1969? Did the 1969 Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum of Pope Paul VI not “do it right”? (Or is it because the 1969 Missal is not an “edition” of the 1962 Missal, but truly a new missal, hence the 2002 MR is the third typical edition?)

I ask these questions because I have seen many references in the documents in the anthology Documents on the Liturgy that express the belief that the 1962 Missal was abrogated. I’ll produce quotes later, but for now I need to go to work. I’m just curious why the 1962 Missal is determined to have been “never abrogated.”
 
I’m not here to pick a fight, but to figure out the facts about this matter.

Pope Benedict XVI wrote that “the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by Bl. John XXIII in 1962 [was] never abrogated” in Summorum Pontificum Art. 1.

Ordinarily, when a new edition of a Missal is promulgated, the older one is expected to be discontinued, no? For example, when Bl. Pope John XXIII added St. Joseph’s name to the Canon in 1962, it was expected that priests would no longer use the older edition of the Roman Missal without this addition, correct?

So why was this process of one edition superseding another not the case in 1969? Did the 1969 Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum of Pope Paul VI not “do it right”? (Or is it because the 1969 Missal is not an “edition” of the 1962 Missal, but truly a new missal, hence the 2002 MR is the third typical edition?)

I ask these questions because I have seen many references in the documents in the anthology Documents on the Liturgy that express the belief that the 1962 Missal was abrogated. I’ll produce quotes later, but for now I need to go to work. I’m just curious why the 1962 Missal is determined to have been “never abrogated.”
This was a HUGE debate ever since the new Mass was introduced. The Traditionalists always maintained that the old Mass was never abrogated.

Paul VI published a “new Rite of Mass” not another FORM of the same right (as Pope Benedict now refers to it). It may be considered another FORM of the same Rite now, but that was not the intent of Paul VI. He made two well known speaches when the new Mass was introduced: one in March and the other on November of 1969 (look them up, they are interesting). In both speaches, he said he was creating a “new Rite of Mass”.

Now, when he promulgated the new Rite of Mass (promulgate might not be the correct word), all he did was publish it. He never abrogated the other. There were false translations of the promulgation that surfaced which gave the impression that the old had been abrogated; but as the Traditionalists always showed, these translations were erroneous. Of course they were ridiculed for pointing out that the translation was false (if I recall correctly, an entire paragraph was added to what Paul VI actually said).

Therefore, since all Paul VI did was publish the new Mass and express his desire that it be excepted; and since he never said the old was abrogated, it was always maintained by the Traditionalists that every Priest had the right to say it. They always maintained that there was no need for an indult, since an indult is permission to do what the law does not permit.

In his autobiography, Bugnini tells a story that surprised him at the time. He said that whenever he went to Paul VI to have him sign a document, the Pope would sign it - sometimes without even reading it; but when he brought him a document to abrogate the old Mass, the Pope read it and refused to sign. He was surprised because this was so contrary to what the Pope normally did.

In 1986, John Paul II formed a commission of 9 Cardinals (one of whom was Cardinal Ratzinger) to study this issued and determine if the Mass, which was being supressed at the time, was ever *legally *abrogated.

They were asked to respond to two question: 1.) Was the Mass ever abrogated; 2.) Does every Priest have the right to say the old Mass.

To the first question they concluded unanimously that the old Mass was never abroated. The vote was 9 to 0. To the second question, all but one voted that any Priest had the right to say the old Mass. The other Cardinal did not vote against it. He abstained from voting. This results of this commission were discussed publicly by several of the members.

Unfortunately, John Paul II never came out and admitted that the old Mass was not abrogated, therefore giving the impression that the faithful and holy Priests who continued to say it were “disobedient”. Instead, he issued an “indult” for the old Mass, which enabled the Bishops to keep it supressed, except for a few Masses here and there, usually in a bad area of town, and at an inconvenient time.

Fortunately, our new Pope had the courage to admit the truth, thereby confirming that the Traditionalists had been right all along.

Now, you mentioned finding liturgical documents saying that the old Mass had been abrogated. These were surely produced during the time in which virtually ever Catholic (except for the Traditional Catholics) was led to believe that it had been. Virtually the entire Catholic world had been led into this error by the hierarchy, and considered those faithful and holy Priest who knew the truth, to be “disobedient”. These Priests, and the faithful who attended their Masses, were ridiculed and called all kinds of names (schismatic, disobedient, “more Catholic than the Pope”, etc.) for simply holding to what was true. It is thanks for these holy Priests and their supporters that the old Mass still exists, and is now making a comeback.

The truth was always available for those who would look into it; but since the truth came from Traditionalist sources - and since Traditionalist were said to be “disobedient schismatics” - most would either not read the evidence, or else reject it if they did. In the end, they had much egg on their face. Therefore, they almost never bring this issue up. Or if they do, they explain it as if the Pope merely “made the use of the Traditional Mass more widely available”, instead of admitting that he said it was never abrogated.
 
It’s a technicality. When the 1969 missal was promulgated, the assumption was that it replaced the 1962 and thus the '62 was abrogated. But there was no formal statement abrogating the 1962 as there could have been. The intention of the Pope seemed clear – the '62 was not supposed to survive. But the '69 and later versions were such radical changes that a backlash occured (that we’re all familiar with) and this loophole was discovered.

Now, it can be said that the '62 was never abrogated because it is needed again in the Church. Perhaps the Holy Spirit allowed that to give some continuity to the liturgical change.
 
Paul VI published a “new Rite of Mass” … It may be considered another FORM of the same Rite now, but that was not the intent of Paul VI. He made two well known speeches when the new Mass was introduced: one in March and the other on November of 1969 (look them up, they are interesting).
I don’t know about the March one, but I know of two November addresses (from consecutive weeks) here and here. He says some interesting things; now, I recognize this is not infallibly proclaimed, but it expresses (what I assume are) Pope Paul VI’s understanding of the reformed liturgy:
We wish to draw your attention to an event about to occur in the Latin Catholic Church: the introduction of the liturgy of the new rite of the Mass. … The Mass will be celebrated in a rather different manner from that in which we have been accustomed to celebrate it in the last four centuries, from the reign of St. Pius V, after the Council of Trent, down to the present. …

It is not an arbitrary act. It is not a transitory or optional experiment. It is not some dilettante’s improvisation. It is a law. It has been thought out by authoritative experts of sacred Liturgy; it has been discussed and meditated upon for a long time. We shall do well to accept it with joyful interest and put it into practice punctually, unanimously and carefully. This reform puts an end to uncertainties, to discussions, to arbitrary abuses.

Nothing has been changed of the substance of our traditional Mass. Perhaps some may allow themselves to be carried away by the impression made by some particular ceremony or additional rubric, and thus think that they conceal some alteration or diminution of truths which were acquired by the Catholic faith for ever, and are sanctioned by it. … It is not so. Absolutely not. … The Mass of the new rite is and remains the same Mass we have always had. If anything, its sameness has been brought out more clearly in some respects.

The unity of the Lord’s Supper, of the Sacrifice on the cross of the re-presentation and the renewal of both in the Mass, is inviolably affirmed and celebrated in the new rite just as they were in the old. The Mass is and remains the memorial of Christ’s Last Supper. At that Supper the Lord changed the bread and wine into His Body and His Blood, and instituted the Sacrifice of the New Testament. He willed that the Sacrifice should be identically renewed by the power of His Priesthood, conferred on the Apostles. (Nov 19)

No longer Latin, but the spoken language will be the principal language of the Mass. The introduction of the vernacular will certainly be a great sacrifice for those who know the beauty, the power and the expressive sacrality of Latin. We are parting with the speech of the Christian centuries; we are becoming like profane intruders in the literary preserve of sacred utterance. We will lose a great part of that stupendous and incomparable artistic and spiritual thing, the Gregorian chant.
(Nov 26)
Now, when he promulgated the new Rite of Mass … all he did was publish it. … There were false translations of the promulgation that surfaced which gave the impression that the old had been abrogated…
I’ve seen this discussed on Rorate Caeli among other places.
In his autobiography, Bugnini … said that … when he brought him a document to abrogate the old Mass, the Pope read it and refused to sign.
Interesting.
In 1986, John Paul II formed a commission of 9 Cardinals (one of whom was Cardinal Ratzinger) to study this issued and determine if the Mass, which was being supressed at the time, was ever *legally *abrogated. … This results of this commission were discussed publicly by several of the members.
I’ve heard of the commission, but I’m not familiar with records of their study or their actual results. Can anyone help me out here?
Now, you mentioned finding liturgical documents saying that the old Mass had been abrogated. These were surely produced during the time in which virtually ever Catholic (except for the Traditional Catholics) was led to believe that it had been.
I can understand that.
 
I’ve heard of the commission, but I’m not familiar with records of their study or their actual results. Can anyone help me out here?
I’ll have to try and locate a source for you. In the meantime, try doing a search for articles in Catholic Family News. I know they’ve discussed it and provided sources. I also try to locate the March 1969 speach on the New Mass.

Here’s some other excerpts from the November speach:

Paul VI:" We ask you to turn your minds once more to the liturgical innovation of the new rite of Mass…

A new rite of the Mass: a change in a venerable tradition that has gone on for centuries. This is something that affects our hereditary religious patrimony,** which seemed to enjoy the privilege of being untouchable and settled**…(no. 2)

**We must prepare for this many sided inconvenience. It is the kind of upset caused by every novelty that breaks in on our habits…(**no. 4) So what is to be done on this special and historical occasion? First of all, we must prepare ourselves. This novelty is no small thing. We should not let ourselves be surprised by the nature, or even the nuisance, of its exterior forms. As intelligent persons and conscientious faithful we should find out as much as we can about this innovation. (no. 5) …

It is here that the greatest newness is going to be noticed, the newness of language. No longer Latin, but the spoken language will be the principal language of the Mass. The introduction of the vernacular will certainly be a great sacrifice for those who know the beauty, the power and the expressive sacrality of Latin. We are parting with the speech of the Christian centuries; we are becoming like profane intruders in the literary preserve of sacred utterance. We will lose a great part of that stupendous and incomparable artistic and spiritual thing, the Gregorian chant. (no 8)

We have reason indeed for regret, reason almost for bewilderment [agreed]. What can we put in the place of that language of the angels? We are giving up something of priceless worth. But why? What is more precious than these loftiest of our Church’s values? (no.9)

Regarding of the portion of the November speach you quoted, which can be understood to imply the new Mass will repalce the old: Those who knew Paul VI referred to him as having “two faces”. They say he would often waiver back and forth. In fact, I just listened to a set of talks given by Fr. Calvin Goodwin of the FSSP to the nuns at EWTN. The talk was regarding the old Mass, but he mentions an interesting story about Humanae Vitae. He said that Paul VI has been persuaded that birth control should be allowed, but when he sat down to write the encyclical he ended up writing the contrary. You can see God’s had at work there.

I think the same is true with the Old Mass. Part of Paul VI probably did intend to abrogate it, but the Holy Ghost would not allow it; therefore, although the impression was given that it was a banned, the reality is that it was not. The impression came from Paul the VI. The reality from the Holy Ghost. Like we always hear, God will not abandon His Church. He did not allow the Pope to abrogate the Mass, even though just about everyone believe he did. Fortunately we had the Traditionalists, such as Archbishop Lefebvre the Great, who knew the truth and saved the Mass from the false impression that was given. Against all odds, and in spite of being ridiculed, they persevered with the truth and in the end have been vindicated.
 
Now, when he promulgated the new Rite of Mass (promulgate might not be the correct word), all he did was publish it.
I believe Cardinal Gut (pronounced “goot”) actually “promulgated” the New Mass. Paul VI had merely allowed it. He “wished and hoped” that it would be used. Some have questioned his legality to create a new rite as it was condemned by the Council of Trent for anyone to do so, but he certainly didn’t present it with “Quo Primum”-strength verbiage.
 
I believe Cardinal Gut (pronounced “goot”) actually “promulgated” the New Mass. Paul VI had merely allowed it. He “wished and hoped” that it would be used. Some have questioned his legality to create a new rite as it was condemned by the Council of Trent for anyone to do so, but he certainly didn’t present it with “Quo Primum”-strength verbiage.
No, Pope Paul himself certainly promulgated the new Order of Mass and the new missal, by his Apostilic Constitution Missale Romanum on 3 April 1969.

Part of the argument that the old missal was suppressed comes from the closing words of the Apostolic Constitution above, viz:

"We order that the prescriptions of this Constitution go into effect November 30th of this year, the first Sunday of Advent.

*"We wish that these Our decrees and prescriptions may be firm and effective now and in the future, **notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by Our predecessors, *and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation."

The text indicates that the use of the new missal was to be placed into use on Advent Sunday, 1969, which marked the beginning of the liturgical year 1970. **The boldfaced portion states that previous declarations by earlier popes in this area were no longer in effect. **One can certainly argue that this refers to previous editions of the missal, since promulgation of a new missal and its related forms is the subject of this Apostolic Constitution.

Moreover, previous changes to the Order of Mass, viz., Inter Oecumenici (1964), and Tres Abhninc Annos (1967) referred to the upcoming complete revision of the Order of the Mass, while immediately ordering provisional reforms. These, along with the Apostolic Constitution above, seem to make clear that the older forms were being superceded.
 
In his autobiography, Bugnini tells a story that surprised him at the time. He said that whenever he went to Paul VI to have him sign a document, the Pope would sign it - sometimes without even reading it; but when he brought him a document to abrogate the old Mass, the Pope read it and refused to sign. He was surprised because this was so contrary to what the Pope normally did.

QUOTE]

Ultima, Ultima, if any document Bugnini wanted the Pope to sign dealt with the liturgy, in effect making liturgical law applicable to at least even the Roman Rite of the Catholic church, the assistance of the Holy Spirit in this matter is infallible. Even though the liturgical law is not infalliable in the sense it can be changed, the law itself can never be pernicious, or even imprudent. Check out “The Church of the Word Incarnet” by Charles Journet.

Therefore, the Pope would never, and I mean never sign anything dealing with liturgical law pertaining to the church without reading and approving it specifically.
 
Ultima Ratio:
In his autobiography, Bugnini tells a story that surprised him at the time. He said that whenever he went to Paul VI to have him sign a document, the Pope would sign it - sometimes without even reading it; but when he brought him a document to abrogate the old Mass, the Pope read it and refused to sign. He was surprised because this was so contrary to what the Pope normally did.
yosupman said:
[Ultima, Ultima, if any document Bugnini wanted the Pope to sign dealt with the liturgy, in effect making liturgical law applicable to at least even the Roman Rite of the Catholic church, the assistance of the Holy Spirit in this matter is infallible. Even though the liturgical law is not infalliable in the sense it can be changed, the law itself can never be pernicious, or even imprudent. Check out “The Church of the Word Incarnet” by Charles Journet.

Therefore, the Pope would never, and I mean never sign anything dealing with liturgical law pertaining to the church without reading and approving it specifically

.

Your second paragraph (the one I underlined) doesn’t follow logically from the first.

What I think you meant to say in the first paragraph is that universal disciplines are protected by the charism of infallibility. However, that does not mean the Holy Ghost will somehow force a Pope to read every document modifying aspects of the liturgical. It just means that he will prevent him from enacting a universal discipline that is per se evil.

We actually do see the Holy Ghost intervening when Bugnini attempted to have the Pope sign the document abrogating of the old Mass. At that time the Holy Ghost did intervene.
 
…the assistance of the Holy Spirit in this matter …
Unless you know better than God, you need to be real careful of bringing Him into your arguments. After all, He does allow train wrecks to happen.
Therefore, the Pope would never, and I mean never sign anything dealing with liturgical law pertaining to the church **without reading **and approving it specifically.
This is, of course, total nonsense.
 
Ultima Ratio says its utter nonsense when I state the Holy Father can never approve a liturgical law that is perncious.

So Ultima why are the post Vatican II popes all wrong in their disciplinary decisions concerning, universal liturgical and canon law? If the any Pope is not protected in making bad laws for the church, why would Pius X, Pius XI, Pius bla bla bla be exempted from error?

When you call something non-sense, and can’t reply it shows you don’t have a reply
 
When did I say that?
Obviously yosupman doesn’t read very well. Yet he apparently thinks that the Pope personally read all the various texts in all the vernaculars before he signed them. Or that he didn’t change traditions into practices before he “wished and hoped” that they would be promulgated into new practices.

As the e-trade kid says, “Try reading the rules.” Did Paul VI read all the rules of Trent? One of the rules of the council of Trent was that no pastor of the church whosoever can change the existing rites into a new rite. Why would the Holy Spirit turn against one of His councils and guide a future Pope to doing just that?
 
Provobis,

I obviously did not take the time to see who had written what. Here is the main problem. I think its the crux of our arguments.

You oppose Vatican II, teaching & liturgical changes based on a theologins opinion, or your own opinion, or Archbishop Lefebvre’s opinion.

Its all opinion. You can’t show me one example of church teaching after Vatican II where the magisterium acknowledges that, well, uhhh, yes, its possible that doctrines completely opposed to the deposit of faith were taught. Neither can you show me anywhere, where John Paull II, or Benedict the VI acting as pope as said the liturgical changes were a disaster, and in themselves harmful to the church.

I’m a CPA. If you say you’re going to follow general accepted accounting principles, then you better do it. If there is a disagreement, you go to the final authority. As a Catholic, the authority that judges the orthodoxy of teachings, and liturgical changes is the pope.

I’m basing my positions on official church teaching.

Your ultra-traditionalist position is based on pure opinion when it comes down to it. Its not based on tradition, because you reject the one organ that is charged with the authority of Christ to interpret tradition, the magisterium. If you accept the non-infalliable magisterium of Pius X, why not John Paull II, or Vatican II?

Its just a contradiction.
 
From Zenit on Pope Benedict explaining the norms of the 1962 missal.
zenit.org/article-20078?l=english
In fact, he says, the 1962 missal “was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.”
The Pontiff explains: “At the time of the introduction of the new missal, it did not seem necessary to issue specific norms for the possible use of the earlier missal. Probably it was thought that it would be a matter of a few individual cases which would be resolved, case by case, on the local level.”
 
I obviously did not take the time to see who had written what.
And then you wonder why your credibility is shot? Show where I’ve opposed Vatican II teachings and show where I said I’m a traditionalist. I’m not. Yes, I’ve attended SSPX services to see first hand what’s going on (I think a lot has been exagerrated) but I also attend the OF services. In fact, I go every day to one. I think there is pastoral value to both the EF and OF and even enjoy liturgical dancing if it’s done in good tastes. I think the Pope is the greatest. As I thought of JPII but maybe not to the same degree. If I’m guilty of anything it is of favoring one Pope over another. You got me there.

So I suggest you do a little more research before you post any more.
 
The topic of this thread is the Status of the 1962 Missal after 1969 not Paul VI’s decisions much less all the commentary about each other. Unless you return to the topic and cease discussion about each other, I will have no other alternative but to close the thread.
 
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