Stay Catholic or change religions?

[Contarini]

In a sense, Edwin, but imagine this: Imagine that you belong to a group of, let’s say, Jane Austen scholars or “Janeites”. While there is room for a lot of different ‘positions’ among your group, suppose you had as a card-carrying member with all the rights and privileges thereof a person who made it his habit to say, publically, that Jane was a stupid whore whose works were ‘ghosted’ by her brothers, whose novels were drivel of the worst sort? Now, what really is this person doing as member of a club which is set up because the people care about Jane Austen and believe she has made a real contribution to literature? Do you think that other members would be comfortable with this member representing himself to John Q Public as a person whose view of Jane should be considered as equally valid and valuable as other members, when he completely dissents, disparages and distorts in all he says of her?

You just keep repeating the “club” analogy.

Why do you think the Church is like a club?

Pliny the Younger may have thought that (according to Robert Louis Wilken), but I wouldn’t base my ecclesiology on a pagan governor.

By “club” I don’t just mean a bunch of jolly fellows–I mean any voluntary association gathered around a set of ideas. Some Protestants do think of the Church that way, but surely we would think that they have a hopelessly inadequate view of the Church?

Furthermore, from my perspective as an Episcopalian a lot of the things that you Catholics think are betrayals of the basic teaching of the Church seem like fairly small potatoes. We have folks who certainly should be excommunicated, like John Shelby Spong. But I wouldn’t say that even Spong, from his own perspective, shouldn’t want to stay Christian. I may be puzzled by why he does, but I think it’s good that he recognizes that there’s something to this whole following Jesus business that he wants to be associated with.

In other words, I’m not disputing the right, even in some cases the duty, of the Church to discipline people who are betraying basic Church teaching. I’m not disputing that there are things the Church teaches. I’m saying that the order of priority is this:
Jesus
Church
Specific teachings of the Church.

The Church is the community of those who follow Jesus, otherwise known as the mystical Body and Bride of Christ, the mother of us all.

Edwin

 

[CMatt25]

Ted, it is correct to say that this opinion you state is your opinion. On the other hand, it is fact proved by history that the above staetent is fact not opinion. The current day bishops are the succesors to the first. The pope is the succesor to Peter. The Tradition and Sacred Scripture together is the Word of God made flesh. The Catholic Church is the holder of this deposit of faith in it’s fulness. Jesus is the head of this church and we are His body.

To not see this is to ignore history and the Early Church Fatherrs.

Lapey, Ted didn’t say anything about opinion in the post you referenced. He said he understood it was your belief but it was not his (as in belief). If Ted’s belief is an opinion then so is yours. Sure anyone can trace history when the “history” is written and then interpreted by the same one tracing it. Just because the CC interprets itself and the ECFs in this or that way may or may not mean they have interpreted every what you believe is “fact” exactly correctly.

 

[CMatt25]

Why do you believe in the Real Presence?

Matt 18:20, Hebrews 13:5, Deuteronomy 31:6, Joshua 1:5

 

[Catholic20064]

Hello…this is my first time posting something on this forum so hopefully I’m at the right place. I’m actually looking for some guidance on what path to take as far as religions. I’ve been raised Catholic ever since I’ve been born. I was baptized, had my first holy communion and was confirmed. Once I left for college, I haven’t been to Church since. I’m now going to be 29 years old and I’ve wanted to return to Church for a few years now but I really don’t know if being Catholic is right for me. Both sides of my family are practicing Catholics…my husbands family used to be Methodist but they don’t go to church anymore. My husband does not want to be Catholic nor do I even know if he would even go with me to church no matter where I choose to go. I feel like I need to go back to the Catholic Church because that is where my family is at, but there are just a lot of things with the Catholic church that I don’t agree with. Can I still go back to being Catholic without all the bells and whistles that go along with it or should I choose another Religion? I thought of trying either an Episcopal or Luthern church because I think they might be the closest to being Catholic but without all these rules. I had my first child out of wedlock, never got married in the Catholic church and I feel like I won’t be accepted back because I broke the rules. Neither one of my 2 kids were baptized and I still want them to be baptized but I need to find my way back to the Church. Does anyone have any words of wisdom or maybe let me know what direction I should take as far as staying with the Catholic Church or finding a different religion? This has been bugging me for a long time and now it’s time for me to step up and start going to church again.
Thanks for listening.

I would suggest you start attending the Catholic Church and participate according to your own understanding trusting that God will give you more guidance as you do so. I don’t think God expects us to fully understand everything at once. At any rate, I don’t think attending a non-Catholic church will get you any closer to Christ than attending a Catholic parish.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

With attacks on Holy Mother Church at an all-time high, would anyone be surprised that there are people on forums who profess to be Catholic, but really wish to cause dissent and scandal by leading people astray?

 

[Desert_Rose_15]

I advise you to read the Quran. It is the guidance for those looking for the truth.

youtube.com/watch?v=v6gKA1nm9qE&feature=related

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I advise you to read the Quran. It is the guidance for those looking for the truth.

youtube.com/watch?v=v6gKA1nm9qE&feature=related

With respect, I advise you to read the Bible and study the history of Christianity and the Catholic Church. for it it there, and not in the Quran, that you will **truly **find guidance and **authority regarding the Truth. **

 

[Desert_Rose_15]

With respect, I advise you to read the Bible and study the history of Christianity and the Catholic Church. for it it there, and not in the Quran, that you will **truly **find guidance and **authority regarding the Truth. **

Thanks for the advice. I think I read enough of the Bible to know that it has many problems. I read only few posts in this thread and I agree with jlengle00 when she said that it is confusing that God wants us to confess our sins to priests. The beauty of Islam is that there is no mediator between yourself and God. God can hear us and see us everywhere, so why do we have to confess our sins to men who are sinners like us.

I advise you all to read the Quran and hear more about Islam from Muslims.

 

[Nicea325]

Thanks for the advice. I think I read enough of the Bible to know that it has many problems. I read only few posts in this thread and I agree with jlengle00 when she said that it is confusing that God wants us to confess our sins to priests. The beauty of Islam is that there is no mediator between yourself and God. God can hear us and see us everywhere, so why do we have to confess our sins to men who are sinners like us.

I advise you all to read the Quran and hear more about Islam from Muslims.

I can respect your beliefs,but I disagree with one comment you said:

The beauty of Islam is that there is no mediator between yourself and God. God can hear us and see us everywhere, so why do we have to confess our sins to men who are sinners like us.

And the beauty of Christianity is that our primary teacher- Jesus had NO SIN,so why would we leave it to follow the teachings of a sinner Muhammad? Unless Muhaammad had no sin?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Matt 18:20, Hebrews 13:5, Deuteronomy 31:6, Joshua 1:5

Joshua 1:5
No one can withstand you while you live. I will be with you as I was with Moses: I will not leave you nor forsake you

Matt 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Hebrews 13:5,
Let your life be free from love of money but be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never forsake you or abandon you.”

There is nothing here about the Eucharist being the flesh and blood of our Lord. Maybe I misunderstood you?

I wanted to know if you believed that Jesus was physically present in the Eucharist, True Flesh and True Blood.

 

[Lapey]

Lapey, Ted didn’t say anything about opinion in the post you referenced. He said he understood it was your belief but it was not his (as in belief). If Ted’s belief is an opinion then so is yours. Sure anyone can trace history when the “history” is written and then interpreted by the same one tracing it. Just because the CC interprets itself and the ECFs in this or that way may or may not mean they have interpreted every what you believe is “fact” exactly correctly.

Difference between fact and opinion; fact can be backed up with history and/or science. Opinion is someone’s belief about things. Not from Webster but I don’t think you can intellectually argue against this statement. If my belief in the real presence is what the Church teaches then it is factual belief not opinion. On the other hand if my belief is as relative as saying that everyone should be able to receive His body and Blood no matter what their denomination or state of grace then that would be an opinion; a wrongly formed one I might add.

See Matt, just because my belief is a belief doesn’t change the fact that it is a belief in FACT, not opinion.

I can see why you wont bring yourself to listen to any of us by your above statement, you loath authority. In the words of JPII in his great work, “Theology of the Body”, one must learn how to be a son or daughter before they can learn to be a brother or sister, then a husband or wife and finally a mother or father. We must learn to die to self and submit our will and be obedient to God.

We are in fact children, but we must learn how to be children first.

If I look at your words above, we could come to the conclusion that the Constitution of the USA is bogus and of no authority. It was written by men who became Americans, once the country was officially formed. It is interpreted by Americans, both in current day and the founding father’s writings in ways that teach us about it by itself and our country. Who can truth that? I know this sounds absurd, but it does make my point about the absurdness of your statement.

Your way of thinking is not bringing you to truth; it is bringing you, and sadly others, to untruth and relative truth. Both of these evils can kill.

 

[Desert_Rose_15]

And the beauty of Christianity is that our primary teacher- Jesus had NO SIN,so why would we leave it to follow the teachings of a sinner Muhammad? Unless Muhaammad had no sin?

You worship prophet Jesus, but Muslims never claim to worship prophet Muhammad. We worship God Almighty, the One True God.

Quran 112
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
[2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
[4] And there is none like unto Him.

 

[CMatt25]

Joshua 1:5
No one can withstand you while you live. I will be with you as I was with Moses: I will not leave you nor forsake you

Matt 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Hebrews 13:5,
Let your life be free from love of money but be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never forsake you or abandon you.”

There is nothing here about the Eucharist being the flesh and blood of our Lord. Maybe I misunderstood you?

I wanted to know if you believed that Jesus was physically present in the Eucharist, True Flesh and True Blood.

No Christine. Here is what you asked in the post I responded to.

Originally Posted by qui est ce
“I just want to know if CMatt believes in the Real Presence. That’s all I want to know.”

So I answered yes. And that’s all you wanted to know. Or so you said.

Then you asked why?

So I gave you 4 Biblical verses trusting you and (name removed by moderator) and any other who get confused and don’t know what I mean by my words, and in the case of at least one of you doesn’t think even I know what I mean by my own words, would at least understand the word of God where He tells us He is really present with us, in our midst and will not abandon us.

But apparently you still misunderstand so I am done playing your little game where all you want to know is one thing. But I answer 2 things and you are still confused and don’t understand after a simple “yes” and how “being in our midst and not abandoning us” means He is really present. If as He tells us He is in our midst and will never abandon us, then He is really present whether in our homes, in a church, or at a Eucharist.

May His peace be with you Christine in your understanding as you journey in faith with Him for a lifetime. God bless.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicea325

And the beauty of Christianity is that our primary teacher- Jesus had NO SIN,so why would we leave it to follow the teachings of a sinner Muhammad? Unless Muhaammad had no sin?

You worship prophet Jesus, but Muslims never claim to worship prophet Muhammad. We worship God Almighty, the One True God.

Quran 112
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
[2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
[4] And there is none like unto Him.

And I never said you worship Muhammad,but you abide to his teachings or else you would not be a Muslim.

And we also worship God (Father,Son and HS) or also known as Jesus. I am very aware that Jews and Muslims deny Jesus as God. We believe God has no limits and can humble Himself to become man.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

But actually this is what had happened to me…
I was also not really Catholic risen (=catechised)…
My only luck was that I was that fascinated from Jesus of Nazareth that I never stopped believing in Him (because we have often talked about Jesus and the Holy Bible in our family - In fact you could even say, although both parents are Catholics, I was more risen as a protestant!)
And that I am very spiritual and wake person.

Do you really think that an episcopolean would ask in a Catholic Forum if he should stay E., or change religions?
In my opinion this is quite unlikely. Why should he ask in a Catholic Forum, where it is clear that there are mainly Catholics, if he should stay E. or not? I mean the answer he will most definitely hear is that he should become Catholic?!

Zadkiel

Umm…you are behind the times my friend…we already worked this out. And if you saw my post afterwards then you would have seen that my being raised as a child Catholic is IMHO the only thing that has kept me to Christ. You had a different experience. So obviously raising your kids Catholic does not do what we originally stated. Although he already cleared up the misunderstanding.

And on the other one…I just thought he was kind of stepping over a line by blasting the Catholic faith on a Catholic forumn…but like we ALREADY worked out…misunderstanding.

That being said…there are a lot of post so I forgive you for not reading all of them…

 

[CMatt25]

Difference between fact and opinion; fact can be backed up with history and/or science. Opinion is someone’s belief about things. Not from Webster but I don’t think you can intellectually argue against this statement. If my belief in the real presence is what the Church teaches then it is factual belief not opinion. On the other hand if my belief is as relative as saying that everyone should be able to receive His body and Blood no matter what their denomination or state of grace then that would be an opinion; a wrongly formed one I might add.

See Matt, just because my belief is a belief doesn’t change the fact that it is a belief in FACT, not opinion.

I can see why you wont bring yourself to listen to any of us by your above statement, you loath authority. In the words of JPII in his great work, “Theology of the Body”, one must learn how to be a son or daughter before they can learn to be a brother or sister, then a husband or wife and finally a mother or father. We must learn to die to self and submit our will and be obedient to God.

We are in fact children, but we must learn how to be children first.

If I look at your words above, we could come to the conclusion that the Constitution of the USA is bogus and of no authority. It was written by men who became Americans, once the country was officially formed. It is interpreted by Americans, both in current day and the founding father’s writings in ways that teach us about it by itself and our country. Who can truth that? I know this sounds absurd, but it does make my point about the absurdness of your statement.

Your way of thinking is not bringing you to truth; it is bringing you, and sadly others, to untruth and relative truth. Both of these evils can kill.

Depends on the authority Lapey. Men who also sin and by whose fruit we shall know them. Or God and His Holy Spirit deep within our consciences. But regardless I have no idea why some of you keep insisting on comparing God to something related to the US secular system. But that’s up to you if you want to put the realm of God and the matters of faith on the same plane. More power to you I guess. Peace and God bless.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Matt, I asked you this and I may have missed the answer:

God is certainly ‘present’ among us, always, by His nature.

And He is ‘present’ where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name.

And He is present in the Eucharist.

Is there a ‘difference’ between the first and second instances of His presence? Between the first and third? The second and third?

Is there a case where He is ‘more’ present to us?

Or are cases one, two and three examples of ‘equality’ of His presence such that He is no ‘more’ or ‘less’ in instance one than in instance two or instance three?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I don’t either. I don’t really like the taste of wine. I’ve never eaten once I leave my house though so if it’s still an hr I meet that deadline! I wouldn’t sweat it though either if I were you. I’m not sure though if all those Catholics pass the litmus test.

CMatt25 and Laneo…I don’t think I would go off of the “other people do it so I’m ok” test. That’s a dangerous way of thinking in my opinion. To be fair CMatt25 I think you were just trying to make laneo feel better. But I don’t think I would use that line of thinking…it can be a very slippery slope…IMHO. Just my thoughts.

 

[CMatt25]

Matt, I asked you this and I may have missed the answer:

God is certainly ‘present’ among us, always, by His nature.

And He is ‘present’ where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name.

And He is present in the Eucharist.

Is there a ‘difference’ between the first and second instances of His presence? Between the first and third? The second and third?

Is there a case where He is ‘more’ present to us?

Or are cases one, two and three examples of ‘equality’ of His presence such that He is no ‘more’ or ‘less’ in instance one than in instance two or instance three?

This kinda sounds like Bill Clinton saying it depends on what the definition of the word is, is, after having sexual relations.

 

[Lapey]

No Christine. Here is what you asked in the post I responded to.

Originally Posted by qui est ce
“I just want to know if CMatt believes in the Real Presence. That’s all I want to know.”

So I answered yes. And that’s all you wanted to know. Or so you said.

Then you asked why?

So I gave you 4 Biblical verses trusting you and (name removed by moderator) and any other who get confused and don’t know what I mean by my words, and in the case of at least one of you doesn’t think even I know what I mean by my own words, would at least understand the word of God where He tells us He is really present with us, in our midst and will not abandon us.

But apparently you still misunderstand so I am done playing your little game where all you want to know is one thing. But I answer 2 things and you are still confused and don’t understand after a simple “yes” and how “being in our midst and not abandoning us” means He is really present. If as He tells us He is in our midst and will never abandon us, then He is really present whether in our homes, in a church, or at a Eucharist.

May His peace be with you Christine in your understanding as you journey in faith with Him for a lifetime. God bless.

This happens because you are so uncommitted. Is Jesus present at the Eucharist or is He truly and really present in the Eucharistic species of bread and wine.

Is the Eucharistic bread Jesus after the priest says the words of consecration?

When I come before the Eucharist in adoration, am I looking into the face of Jesus Himself? Or am I simply looking at some supernatural bread as manna was to our fathers in the dessert?

You remind me of a guy who had us contemplate what the meaning of the word “is” is.

You must be convicted as Jesus Christ was convicted!!! He has convicted me, I am a Catholic Christian who, by the grace of God is called to love you and want what’s best for you; that my brother is salvation!

We are called to holiness we are called to lead virtuous lives. We are called to be saints, not to be happy with whatever belief makes us happy.

Everything you desire is found in Christ, who is the head of His Church. He is inviting you to come in completely. This is where His peace is found, not in the world.

Doesn’t the discourse of Jesus praying in the garden make since to you; doesn’t it apply to all in which you object? Jesus teaches us to be heroically virtuous people, to be saintly. He asked if the cup could pass but He was obedient to the Father. He did what the Father asked.

We all have given you everything the Church offers you, but you reject everything that can lead you to truth, because somehow it is tainted. I am saddened by this, by your hardness of heart.

These bits of information we share with you are not our opinions they are parts of our faith, they are truths as the Church has taught since the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord.

A convicted Catholic Christian does not mince words; he speaks with authority, the authority given the Church by Christ. As long as he preaches the truth according to the Church he has the Spirit of God behind him. If he speaks against the Church and it’s teachings he speaks against the Spirit of God.

It’s that simple. Sooner or later one must come to the realization that he doesn’t have the answers and has to truth those in authority, the Church’s leaders; the Bishops in communion with the Holy Father.

As someone mentioned earlier, said only a mere 7.5 decades after the crucifixion, “as you find the bishops, there you will find the Catholic Church.” St Ignatius, 107 AD. They are our current day apostles, whether we acknowledge them or not, this is truth. To be in disagreement with the bishops is in disagreement with Christ.

I am sorry you will not allow yourself to explore the truth found in your faith; not only Cmatt but all the others who question the Church in which they claim to belong, especially the OP.

I pray for you and all who are where I was a few short years ago to come to the light and seek His truth, you are home, just come on in! I also ask for your prayers to the Lord to keep me on track with His truth.