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CMatt25
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You got that part right
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CMatt25
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:coffeeread:
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Tantum_ergo
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Matt, All Saint’s Day was EIGHT MONTHS AGO!You don’t have to respond with anything. I already know the CC says I receive not in a state they define as grace. RememberI missed that All Saints Day and haven’t completed a Sacramental confession. So I face hell. I don’t believe for a nanosecond though that I face hell because of that. So I wouldn’t lose any sleep over you warning about it anyway.
I’m not sure if you understand the definition of a Christian then. But it doesn’t surprise me because you don’t seem to understand who is Catholic without a bunch of adjectives before it.
And I was attempting a bit of humor about the bishop still allowing the receipt of the Real Presence while standing in an upright position with cupped hands. Only because if he supposedly is in Apostolic succession, I know some supposedly devoutest Catholics who insist otherwise and say everyone should go back to kneeling and receiving with Jesus being placed into the mouth by the priest. But whatever appeals to them I guess.
You’re really willing to bet your ‘eternal life’ that in defying the Church and placing yourself in opposition to it by refusing to go to confession, God is going to take your side? WHY SHOULD HE? Since when does God give ‘one’ rule to one person or group, and another, completely different rule to another person or group? That doesn’t make sense. God doesn’t say, “Thou shalt not kill; oh, unless you’re rocket scientists. All rocket scientists can kill. But nobody else.”
You’re so sure that 2000 years, hundreds of thousands of devout Catholics praying to God for guidance, and the Church itself, scripturally established as the authority God gave us through St. Peter and guided by the Holy Spirit. . .are all wrong. Totally.
Whereas you, Matt, about what, 40 or 50 years old, living in AD 2010, claim that you somehow are one of the ‘few’ in the last 2000 years who is ‘right’ in God’s eyes. That much if not all of Scripture and Tradition and Christian history are all wrong, and that you somehow ‘know’ (we don’t know how you know but you claim you know) that you are right and we and every other Christian who has hold and taught the Catholic faith that comes from the apostles for 2000 years are just wrong. . .because YOU say so, on your unsupported word.
And you’re PROUD of this? Proud to come here and encourage other Catholics to just do as they please because you claim that as a Catholic YOU do so, therefore it’s just peachy keen for them to emulate your disobedience? Leading people astray?
**At least you are starting to show that you dimly recognize that no matter how you claim, “I’m Catholic, I’m Catholic”. . .you refer to the Church as ‘they’. Hardly the language of somebody who feels that they are truly a part of something. **
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Lapey
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You make a mockery of your faith, your Church, yourself, and most sadly your God. Are you laughing at yourself?
I don’t believe you are Catholic at all. I believe you are a troll trying to lead others away from the truth. There is no way you can be that ignorant to ignore so much if you trutly belong to His Church, which I doubt.
I pity you.
Peace and good night,
Gary
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jmcrae
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If they didn’t, we’re all in trouble, because they were the scribes who inscribed the New Testament when the Apostles dictated to them (because the Apostles were illiterate, as you know).Well perhaps but how were their memories. And perhaps more importantly did they understand what the Apostles were saying and what they meant by their words.
Of course, there are lots of people who have simply decided that they couldn’t possibly have gotten it right, and then in the next breath think that they themselves, living on the other side of the world nearly 2,000 years later, and not even speaking the same language or eating the same food, can somehow know things that those poor ignorant scholars of the first century who slept and walked and ate and conversed face to face for 50 years with the Apostles could not possibly have fathomed.
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CMatt25
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Tantum, yeah but another one’s coming at least I think it is in my diocese in 4 mos.
unless the bishop decides to change it. And do we still have the weekday Holy obligation Day Assumption of the Blesed Virgin Mary 6 wks from now before then or has that been changed? Oh. No. I just looked. Aug 15 is a Sun this yr.I know God doesn’t make 1 rule for one grp or in this case for a diocese and another for another diocese. That’s my point!
No Tantum I am not sure you are totally wrong. It’s faith and beliefs. Discussing our beliefs shouldn’t be prideful, Tantum. Is #1 of the 7 deadly sins still pride? Pride is defined as an exaggerated opinion of one’s own worth. I can’t be both a relativist as I am branded here (even though I believe there is one truth Whom shall come again) and be prideful all at the same time. I’m the one preaching unity in Him and not sweating the differences so much. And saying we can’t be 100% absolutely certain of everything in matters of faith and morals. That is hardly being prideful.
Yeah sometimes some Catholics make me feel as if I’m not part of them But thank God there are others who still do.
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guanophore
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Well, so long as the invicibility of your ignorance has been removed, then there is no need to go into it again here.
What is curious is why you would push yourself forward in an act of communion with a Church that considers your action a mortal sin? What benefit is there to you?
Basically you are standing up in the congregation to tell a lie with your body. You engage in an act that demonstrates a unity that does not, in fact, exist.
I never thought about what it would be like to go to Church every Sunday to have the opportunity to publicly misrepresent myself.
What do you mean, you “missed” it? Do you mean you chose not to go?Remember
It is our duty, your ability to sleep or not.
You did not respond to my observation that you were appealing to the authority of the bishop when it came to the manner of receiving communion, but disdained it on the issue of going to Mass on a day when you apparently did not want to go.
Do you think a Christian should believe that Jesus broke His promises?
There are some people that don’t need any. In your case, since you have rejected the faith that is Catholic, it is disingenuous for you to post your affiliation so that it gives the impression you are someone you are really not. Is this the spirit of Hymenaeus at work?
the Church supports both as appropriate.
If you don’t believe your bishop is in the succession or the succession has no value to you, why do you still masquerade as Catholic?
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CMatt25
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Gary, no I am not laughing. And ok well if you don’t believe I’m a Catholic at all, I guess I’m wasting my time going to Mass and might as well throw out my Baptismal and Confirmation records. I am not trying to lead anyone anywhere other than to a unity in Christ. If someone finds Him in our Church great! If someone finds Him in another, that’s fine with me. Just so they find Him! I don’t believe He’s only in our church. I still know some Catholics who exemplify the spirit of Christ’s love and open arms who don’t try to place themselves on the judgement throne and I know some great Protestants and pastors who do the same. I am here to discuss faith and belief.You make a mockery of your faith, your Church, yourself, and most sadly your God. Are you laughing at yourself?
I don’t believe you are Catholic at all. I believe you are a troll trying to lead others away from the truth. There is no way you can be that ignorant to ignore so much if you trutly belong to His Church, which I doubt.
I pity you.
Peace and good night,
Gary
Good night and peace always to you as well.
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guanophore
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"guanophore:
These are some of your more critical anti-Catholic views.
Your records will be very valuable at some point, when you return to the Catholic faith.
It is not loving to confirm others in their errors and sins. We are only custodians of the Truth, not the Source of it. It may seem like “judgement” to you because we are confident in that which we have received from the Apostles.
That is the reason CAF is here. It would be more productive for all concerned, however, if you did so in a more genuous manner that had some integrity. The way you misrepresent yourself here as espuosing the Catholic faith is truly a public scandal.
Good night and peace always to you as well.
Well good for me! And you thought I was not paying attention. :dancing:
These are some of your more critical anti-Catholic views.
Sorry, that is all that would come to mind!
I think his baptismal and confirmation certificates are genuine. He clearly does not espouse Catholic faith, and it does seem like he is a troll who is up to no good. But, that is part of the apostolate in the order of Hymenaeus.You make a mockery of your faith, your Church, yourself, and most sadly your God. Are you laughing at yourself?
I don’t believe you are Catholic at all. I believe you are a troll trying to lead others away from the truth. There is no way you can be that ignorant to ignore so much if you trutly belong to His Church, which I doubt.
I pity you.
Peace and good night,
Gary
No, it is never a waste to go to Mass. One receives graces by being present. It is very dangerous of you to partake of the Body and Blood, however, when one is in a spiritual state such as the one you have.
Your records will be very valuable at some point, when you return to the Catholic faith.
I believe your intentions are sincere, but you cannot lead anyone to a place you have not been. On the contrary, your misrepresentation of the faith fosters further confusion and disunity.
The Catholic Church teaches that the HS works through the ecclesial communities of our separated brethren to draw everyone to Himself.
It is not loving to confirm others in their errors and sins. We are only custodians of the Truth, not the Source of it. It may seem like “judgement” to you because we are confident in that which we have received from the Apostles.
This is good.
That is the reason CAF is here. It would be more productive for all concerned, however, if you did so in a more genuous manner that had some integrity. The way you misrepresent yourself here as espuosing the Catholic faith is truly a public scandal.
Good night and peace always to you as well.
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Annabelle_Marie
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CMatt25
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Discussed benefits with you already. You can go back and search for them if you still need to know.What is curious is why you would push yourself forward in an act of communion with a Church that considers your action a mortal sin? What benefit is there to you?
What do you mean, you “missed” it? Do you mean you chose not to go?
You did not respond to my observation that you were appealing to the authority of the bishop when it came to the manner of receiving communion, but disdained it on the issue of going to Mass on a day when you apparently did not want to go.
Do you think a Christian should believe that Jesus broke His promises?
My conscience which the CCC says I must obey, though informed, still as of tonight at least does not allow me to believe it’s a mortal sin to disobey by missing Mass in a universal Church on a weekday in one place and not in another, or to disobey on missing Mass on a weekday in any case. So no, I didn’t go. Sometimes I do choose to and go to weekday Mass even when I’m not “obligated” but I didn’t Nov 1.
Yes I did respond once again explaining to you what I meant about something so I’m not going to repeat it.
Nope. Jesus didn’t break His promises. But perhaps man messes up and Jesus has to correct and reform things in order for Jesus to keep His promise. Or perhaps we argue over a bunch of dotted "i"s and crossed "t"s that are simply in the end things not as important as Jesus.
…
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CMatt25
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You have no idea where I’ve been nor where I might go. The difference is we define unity differently. You seek everyone to come one way. I don’t believe that is realistic until Christ comes again. So in the meantime I seek unity in Him in ways we can have it. I’d rather witness to Christ in that manner rather than dig my heels into the sand and say no no no no all the time. That it’s my way or the highway. The kind of unity you want isn’t going to happen that way on this earth like I said till He Truth comes again when faith and belief will either be proven or disproven and we will then know. I also don’t believe it helps one bit towards unity to call other churches “ecclesial communities” and not churches. If I were a Protestant I would take offense to that.
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Elizabeth502
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CMatt is not a troll. He has posted seriously on serious threads.
Regarding HolyDays, he should have gone. (“Remember to Keep Holy the Lord’s Day” is a command extended to Church-declared days, in addition to Sundays.) However, three things about that:
(1) He seems to be in the majority, not the minority. Do you folks have full churches on HolyDays? Mostly, locally we do not. (I’m in the minority, with the exception of once recently at a parish near my work, not my home. The evening Mass was nearly full, which shocked me actually.) Heck, if it’s “only” one HolyDay he’s missed in the last year, he may be exemplary compared to the majority of more frequent violators who possibly attend no HolyDays, and haven’t for years – or maybe ever.
(2) The small attendance can be the result of generally poor catechesis, or…
(3) A result (depending on the parish) of inconvenient/impossible Mass times on non-Sundays.
It would help if the Church would “put its money where its mouth is,” when it comes to advocating for frequent reception of the sacraments (such as Penance) and faithful HolyDay attendance. Some of us have advocated for this on the L&S subforum. It would have been difficult to an extreme for me to have attended the recent HolyDay I mention, had there not been a parish 7 minutes from my work which happens to offer late-evening Holy Day Masses. (I get off of work late, and have such a long commute that I cannot attend an early morning Mass near home.)
I recognize this is O/T and not an excuse for missing Mass. But let’s not demonize CMatt relative to the rest of the Catholic laity.
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qui_est_ce
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Well, that is not where I was going with this. I don’t think he thinks he is receiving unworthily, although that is our beliefs. I wanted to find out where he was coming from, starting with the basics. I have come to the conclusion he is not sincerely debating, but rather baiting us and having a good time thinking he is outsmarting us. Sadly, he is using the precious body and blood of our Lord in his sorry attempt at what he considers wit and intelligence.I think you knew exactly where that was going, anddid a good job dodging it.
He is smart to be non-committal in his responses. He has rightly discerned where this line of questioning is going.
CM has made it clear that he does not hold Catholic faith in the Real Presence. He is hedging because He knows that, if this becomes clear, we will all respond to him with warnings that he is receiving while not in a state of grace or communion with the Church.
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Lapey
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This issue is of the least importance in my opinion. Yes it is our obligation to attend when our local ordinary designates an obligation. My problem with this poster is the fact that he claims to be Catholic but he publicly opposes most of the Churches teachings on this public forum. This brings scandal to the Church, and creates stumbling blocks for others. I believe we all know what scripture says about that, millstone anyone?
He makes up his own rules and has no idea what the word obedience means. He cannot say whether he believes the Eucharist is truly the Risen Christ or not; he insists that all should be allowed to partake in the Eucharist no matter what their beliefs or state of Grace.
It is one thing to be baptized and confirmed, it is completely different to be a Catholic Christian, which by his demonstration he is not.
On one hand he quotes the catechism, on the other he uses that quote to disobey another. There is a word for this, hypocrisy.
We have tried with love to lead Matt to investigate the truth, but he simply shrugs every attempt off as not authentic teaching. You know, Jesus had to “fix” what we the Catholic Church screwed up.
It is sad where many of our fellow Catholics have gone; we even misunderstand the Churches teaching on how to properly receive. The Church, as a whole, does not allow reception of the Holy Eucharist on the hand. The Church in the US received an indult to be allowed the reception in the hand. This is not an ultra conservative traditionalist movement, this is a return to what the Latin Church says is the proper way to receive.
I bet Matt, you didn’t know that either, did you. See there are many things like this that for some reason are not taught in CCD classes. When we teach kids to prepare them for their first Eucharist, we don’t do a good job of catechizing in what if the preferred way to receive, on the tongue. We should be honest enough to teach them that we received special permission from Rome to break with this tradition.
We have watered down our faith and that is why many see us as being equal to or less unified than some of the Protestant denominations. We are looking for entertainment.
Going to mass is a response to what God did for us. We go in response to the sacrifice Jesus made for us. We worship God with the angels and the saints and pray along with Jesus Christ Himself to the Father through the Holy Spirit! This worship is the liturgy!!! It is not our liturgy; it belongs to the Church with Jesus as the head. He makes the rules; we submit our wills to Him and follow the Churches teaching. To reject this is to reject Jesus Himself.
Peace and His truth be with you,
Gary
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Sailor_Kenshin
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When Holy Mother Church is under attack from all sides, it is not impossible to imagine that there will be trolls who come here only to lead others astray and mock our beliefs.You make a mockery of your faith, your Church, yourself, and most sadly your God. Are you laughing at yourself?
I don’t believe you are Catholic at all. I believe you are a troll trying to lead others away from the truth. There is no way you can be that ignorant to ignore so much if you trutly belong to His Church, which I doubt.
I pity you.
Peace and good night,
Gary
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CARV
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The irony is, as someone pointed out, is that cafeteria catholic are the vast majority of the billion catholics in the world. So the real scandal isn’t that CMatt holds the views that he does and remains catholic but rather that a very vocal minority look down thier noses a most of the people who sit next to them in the pews.
I get the feeling that said minority wants a new inquisition to weed out cmatt and Nancy Pelosi so that they can have a purer, and much smaller church.
I get the feeling that said minority wants a new inquisition to weed out cmatt and Nancy Pelosi so that they can have a purer, and much smaller church.
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guanophore
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I should have saved them to a file so they would have been easier to find again! I must have blocked them out. Usually I remember really preposterous statements, so they must have made some kind of sense to me at the time. However, I did not realize back then how thoroughly anti-Catholic you really are, unless it was you that has changed in the last few months, but I dont think so.
Ok, thanks for that. I was listenening to EWTN this morining, and they were explaining that a well formed conscience is one that has been shaped by theTeaching of Jesus as found in the CC. It is the attitude of rebellion and disobedience that is really the most problematic. That is something that transcends diocesan boundaries. As Jesus said, if we cannot be obedient/faitfhful in the little things, how can wwe be trusted in the bigger things?
So, how is it that you use the CC appeal to conscience when you do not meet the CC criteria for a well formed conscience? This seems like a logical inconsistency, much like apppealing to the authority of your bishop when it suits you, and ignoring his authority when it does not.
How does a Catholic standard justify you when you are rejecting the crucial elements of the standard?
This, again, is wise. The more you repeat something that makes no sense, the more it becomes obvious to yourself and everyone else that it makes no sense. If you were to continually give this “witness” to your faith, such as it is, your testimony would look like swiss cheese.
Oh definitely man messes up. And definetly God had to correct them, and men are always in need of reform. The doctrine of the faith, however, is without error, and is never in need of reform. This is where the Reformers went off the track. They rightly recognized the corruption in the clergy, but they also thought they could improve on the Teachings of Jesus by reforming those.
They might seem that way to you, CM, but the Apostles taught that the Gospel is ONE and WHOLE. We are not at liberty to excise the parts of it that we do not like or understand. Once a person begins pulling out the threads, the whole begins to unravel. In the end, what one clings to is not the same as what was passed down in the Church.
I think when I met you I decided to err on the side of caution, and I deemed that you stood in the tradition of Apollos. Now that I have been reading a lot of your posts again, I realize that is not the case. You are clearly not open to having your deficiencies of faith upgraded by Apostolic instruction, as he was.
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Lapey
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What did St. John Vianney have to say about this? He was just fine with an smaller but more pure Church. Your inflammatory use of the word inquisition shows us where you stand.
Look up these two terms; inquisition and excommunication. Are they the same?
So if there is a group of believers, lets say 1000 in total. 750 are of the belief that Jesus was a woman, the remaining 250 believe what the past members of the group taught, that He was a man. Is the minority supposed to re-evaluate the belief because the 750 changed the tradition? And if they would and change in the name of unity, would Jesus forgive me for buying into a heresy?
It is that black and white for these beliefs we discuss here. You are of a Protestant denomination and have no dog in many of the topics we discuss, because of the different doctrine you follow. So please, if you choose to join in, temper your rhetoric and accusations toward the “vocal minority” on just continue to sit on the sidelines.
Thanks,
Gary
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guanophore
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I agree that nominal Catholicism is a terrible scandal all over the world. However, it is erroneous to say that “CMatt …remains Catholic”. If he ever held Catholic faith, he no longer does so. The fact that he claims to be Catholic seems to somehow assuage his “conscience (such as it is)” that he has not left the Catholic Church. Perhaps he imagines that he has not jeapardized his own salvation by falling into heresies?
I was just reading a post from another member on a thread who identifies as “ineffective Catholic”. I found this a very poignant and accurate descriptor. However, it is one thing to be an “ineffective Catholic” for oneself, the Church, and the world because on is nominal only. It is quite another to purport that one is “effective” when one is not, and thereby lead others astray. This only compounds the problem.
I think it is an equal scandal for those who do embrace the teachings of the Church to “look down on” anyone who does not. We are who we are only by grace, and are but one beggar telling the other beggar where to find the bread. But for His grace, we are all on the same path to perdition as the ones who call themselves “Catholic” while rejecting the doctrines of the faith.
There will be no need of an inquisition. Such persons are self weeding. What is happening is that devout Catholics are better catechized, and are learning apologetics and evangelization. We don’t have any need to 'stamp out" the weeds that are growing among the wheat. On the contrary, we are to leave them until the harvest, where they will be gathered and burned. Those Catholics who are in right relationship with the Lord know that we have our hands full being fruitful and healthy stalks of wheat, that we do not have energy left to pull out weeds.
I do agree, though, that as the “nominal” Catholics exclude themselves the Church will be smaller and purer. I think persecution will accomplish this. The faithless cannot persist during persecution.
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