Stay Catholic or change religions?

[Lapey]

There will be no need of an inquisition. Such persons are self weeding. What is happening is that devout Catholics are better catechized, and are learning apologetics and evangelization. We don’t have any need to 'stamp out" the weeds that are growing among the wheat. On the contrary, we are to leave them until the harvest, where they will be gathered and burned. Those Catholics who are in right relationship with the Lord know that we have our hands full being fruitful and healthy stalks of wheat, that we do not have energy left to pull out weeds.

I do agree, though, that as the “nominal” Catholics exclude themselves the Church will be smaller and purer. I think persecution will accomplish this. The faithless cannot persist during persecution.

AMEN!!! I love it when the Holy Spirit confirms what we think is taking place. My wife and I were just having this exact conversation about a girl whom my 18 year old son wants to date. We object to it because she appears to be one like Matt, a Catholic in name only.

But we are confident that our son who has been and continues to be catechized daily will realize this parable of Jesus is so true today, and he will withstand the great tribulation of growing with the weeds; and be harvested with the wheat as Matt says, when the Truth returns.

 

[qui_est_ce]

My conscience which the CCC says I must obey, though informed, still as of tonight at least does not allow me to believe it’s a mortal sin to disobey by missing Mass in a universal Church on a weekday in one place and not in another, or to disobey on missing Mass on a weekday in any case. So no, I didn’t go. Sometimes I do choose to and go to weekday Mass even when I’m not “obligated” but I didn’t Nov 1.

You seem obsessed about a mass you missed 8 months ago. Maybe your conscience is nagging you.

Nope. Jesus didn’t break His promises. But perhaps man messes up and Jesus has to correct and reform things in order for Jesus to keep His promise.

Has it occurred to you that you might be the man who is messing things about and Jesus is using CAF to correct you?

Or perhaps we argue over a bunch of dotted "i"s and crossed "t"s that are simply in the end things not as important as Jesus. …

Are you referring to your Baptismal Certificate and your Confirmation? Crossed t’s and i’s with no heart and soul behind them. Pieces of paper. Pity the person who lost them and still claims to be Catholic.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The irony is, as someone pointed out, is that cafeteria catholic are the vast majority of the billion catholics in the world. So the real scandal isn’t that CMatt holds the views that he does and remains catholic but rather that a very vocal minority look down thier noses a most of the people who sit next to them in the pews.

I get the feeling that said minority wants a new inquisition to weed out cmatt and Nancy Pelosi so that they can have a purer, and much smaller church.

“Look down their noses at most of the people who sit next to them in the pews?” So you ‘read minds’, do you?

I wasn’t aware (silly me) that the Catholic Church was a democracy based on ‘majority rule’ and that it didn’t matter what was taught or practiced because if the majority ‘does something wrong’, then the ‘minority’ can’t be permitted to teach correctly lest it be seen as ‘looking down’ at the majority. Oh wait, maybe I wasn’t aware of it because the Catholic Church ISN’T a democracy based on majority rule, it does matter that the truth be told, and that doing such is not ‘looking down one’s nose’ but rather lovingly trying to help people to THE TRUTH.

Poor Carv. Your ‘feelings’ cannot be trusted as they appear to be rooted in your own dislike of hearing people correct your errors, so naturally you want to paint them in the worst possible light so that you can say it is not their CORRECTION that you protest, but their ‘meanness’, and their ‘unChristian attitude’. IOW, you make a strawman to knock down.

 

[CMatt25]

I should have saved them to a file so they would have been easier to find again! I must have blocked them out. Usually I remember really preposterous statements, so they must have made some kind of sense to me at the time. However, I did not realize back then how thoroughly anti-Catholic you really are, unless it was you that has changed in the last few months, but I dont think so.

So, how is it that you use the CC appeal to conscience when you do not meet the CC criteria for a well formed conscience? This seems like a logical inconsistency, much like apppealing to the authority of your bishop when it suits you, and ignoring his authority when it does not.

Oh definitely man messes up. And definetly God had to correct them, and men are always in need of reform. The doctrine of the faith, however, is without error, and is never in need of reform. This is where the Reformers went off the track. They rightly recognized the corruption in the clergy, but they also thought they could improve on the Teachings of Jesus by reforming those.

I think when I met you I decided to err on the side of caution, and I deemed that you stood in the tradition of Apollos. Now that I have been reading a lot of your posts again, I realize that is not the case. You are clearly not open to having your deficiencies of faith upgraded by Apostolic instruction, as he was.

Hmmm… Guan, I think I’ve given some benefits on this thread after you asked. Not a “few mos” ago.

I point out catechism because it says our consciences are deep within us, our most secret core, our sanctuary, where we are with God. And it says we must follow our consciences. I fully get how we need to inform our consciences of teaching. But then I seem to be told no, that’s not good enough. If still after informing, praying over it, contemplating, praying some more for the Holy Spirit’s guidance, and your conscience still dissents on something, then nope your conscience is not your conscience unless your conscience only acts in accordance with everything we inform it about. I no longer would have my conscience in that case.

Guan, I’m not as schooled in Protestant thought as perhaps you are, but I’ve just always thought they do not necessarily look at it as them improving anything. But instead as Jesus improving His Church. I might be wrong though.

I am afterall the first to confess I do not know everything you know about God with the degree of certainty in which you believe you know it. But may He bless you always along your lifelong journey with Him.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The irony is, as someone pointed out, is that cafeteria catholic are the vast majority of the billion catholics in the world. So the real scandal isn’t that CMatt holds the views that he does and remains catholic but rather that a **very vocal minority look down thier noses a most of the people who sit next to them in the pews.
**

My goodness, I would never presume to know the heart of the person sitting next to me at mass. Of course, there’s the choir lady who loudly proclaims her opinion that the priesthood is all about the “plumbing” when the seminary collection is announced. Not exactly an appropriate timing.

I get the feeling that said minority wants a new inquisition to weed out cmatt and Nancy Pelosi so that they can have a purer, and much smaller church.

:thumbsup:The Church is actually going through a renewal at this point. Better catechesis and evangelization are at the core. The purpose is not to weed out people, but to make clear the Teachings of the Church. It seems the Church had done a very poor job of catechesis, as is evident in even my own children who attended 12 years of Catholic schools.

It’s embarrasing to watch Nancy Pelosi trying to prove how Catholic she is by arguing some obscure Augusintian pondering concerning infusion of the soul when defending her support of abortion. Or proclaiming March 19 as the feast of St. Joseph the worker, when that feast is actually May the 1st. Have you seen her speach about her favorite word is “the Word?” I call them “Google” moments.

 

[CMatt25]

You are of a Protestant denomination and have no dog in many of the topics we discuss, because of the different doctrine you follow.

Why doesn’t he? This is not Liturgy and Sacraments for instance. This is the non Catholic forum. The original topic before ya’ll turned it over to one on me, was about what the OP should do. CARV simply expresses his belief on a non Catholic forum where we can discuss various beliefs.

 

[CMatt25]

AMEN!!! I love it when the Holy Spirit confirms what we think is taking place. My wife and I were just having this exact conversation about a girl whom my 18 year old son wants to date. We object to it because she appears to be one like Matt, a Catholic in name only.

But we are confident that our son who has been and continues to be catechized daily will realize this parable of Jesus is so true today, and he will withstand the great tribulation of growing with the weeds; and be harvested with the wheat as Matt says, when the Truth returns.

You won’t allow your adult son to date a Catholic? I would have thought you would be all for it so you could attempt to catechize her more “properly”. Who knows Lapey. Perhaps it is God’s will they date and she comes into your lives.

 

[jmcrae]

t’s embarrasing to watch Nancy Pelosi trying to prove how Catholic she is by arguing some obscure Augusintian pondering concerning infusion of the soul when defending her support of abortion. Or proclaiming March 19 as the feast of St. Joseph the worker, when that feast is actually May the 1st. Have you seen her speach about her favorite word is “the Word?” I call them “Google” moments.

St. Joseph has two feasts on the Liturgical calendar, and the other one is, indeed, on March 19th. So, she wasn’t wrong - she was just incomplete.

However, with regard to abortion, she does, indeed, seem to be trying to justify the ways of the world, instead of follow the teachings of the Church. I always think that if people “got” that the unborn child is a real person who plays and dances within the mother’s womb, the whole debate would just disappear - nobody would ever even consider abortion.

 

[jmcrae]

Why doesn’t he? This is not Liturgy and Sacraments for instance. This is the non Catholic forum.

Not in the same sense that CARM is a non-Catholic forum, or christian.net is a non-Catholic forum. This isn’t a place for non-Catholics to proselytize, but rather, a place for non-Catholics to receive Catholic answers to their questions. Not to give out non-Catholic answers to those inquiring.

The original topic before ya’ll turned it over to one on me, was about what the OP should do.

And the Catholic answer to that non-Catholic question has been given - she should study the teachings of the Church thoroughly, and hear what the Church herself has to say about herself, before making a final decision one way or the other.

 

[CMatt25]

You seem obsessed about a mass you missed 8 months ago. Maybe your conscience is nagging you.

Has it occurred to you that you might be the man who is messing things about

Are you referring to your Baptismal Certificate and your Confirmation? Crossed t’s and i’s with no heart and soul behind them. Pieces of paper. Pity the person who lost them and still claims to be Catholic.

No it’s not yet nagging me about that.

But you haven’t read my posts that I don’t believe we necessarily know everything with 100% absolute certainty when it comes to matters of faith and beliefs? Perhaps though that’s another one of those reasons Guan so much asks for. This is probably my catechized mind chiming in. But what **if **the CC is correct? As long as I remain Catholic, I always have Her to reconcile with before my last breath. We don’t know where we will be at that point. Only God knows. (I was going to put a “shrug” there but I know you don’t like 'em.)

I havent lost my papers. Or maybe you’re judgng my soul as lost too.

 

[CMatt25]

My goodness, I would never presume to know the heart of the person sitting next to me at mass.

Ok so if I find myself sitting next to you this weekend after you’ve already either said I’ve lost my papers or my heart and soul, I don’t really know what you meant, but I have my papers so you must have meant I lost my heart and soul, I’ll then presume you take that back and don’t know.

 

[jmcrae]

But you haven’t read my posts that I don’t believe we necessarily know everything with 100% absolute certainty when it comes to matters of faith and beliefs?

Well, there are two things that you can know. One is, that St. Ignatius of Antioch, just before being fed to the lions, and when asked how he kept his faith intact in the face of such terror, said, “Obey your Bishops, for where the Bishop is, there is Jesus Christ.”

You also know that your Bishop has commanded you to observe November 1 as a Holy Day of Obligation.

Putting those two together, you can see that, in order to remain united with Christ even unto the lions, you should obey your Bishop and go to Mass on November 1.

It’s not actually rocket science, here.

 

[CMatt25]

Not in the same sense that CARM is a non-Catholic forum, or christian.net is a non-Catholic forum. This isn’t a place for non-Catholics to proselytize, but rather, a place for non-Catholics to receive Catholic answers to their questions. Not to give out non-Catholic answers to those inquiring.

Then why does it say where I go to click on Non-Catholic Religions in the subforums and it sends me here that this is the place for “Comparing and contrasting beliefs”, if it’s only a place to talk about Catholic beliefs? It doesn’t say only Catholic beliefs. Yet all too often when a non Catholic simply mentions their beliefs they right away are accused of prosletyzing when in fact that was not their intent at all. Non Catholics can’t get Catholic answers by asking an Apologist on in the Apologetics forum?

 

[TedDC]

Well, there are two things that you can know. One is, that St. Ignatius of Antioch, just before being fed to the lions, and when asked how he kept his faith intact in the face of such terror, said, “Obey your Bishops, for where the Bishop is, there is Jesus Christ.”

You also know that your Bishop has commanded you to observe November 1 as a Holy Day of Obligation.

Putting those two together, you can see that, in order to remain united with Christ even unto the lions, you should obey your Bishop and go to Mass on November 1.

It’s not actually rocket science, here.

No, it’s not rocket science. In fact it’s not any kind of science at all. It’s one man’s fallible statement, made centuries ago, extrapolated to the statements of a fallible 21st century man.

As I mentioned, it’s man’s nature to crave power and authority, and what better way to assert it than by atttaching oneself in God’s authority.

 

[CMatt25]

Well, there are two things that you can know. One is, that St. Ignatius of Antioch, just before being fed to the lions, and when asked how he kept his faith intact in the face of such terror, said, “Obey your Bishops, for where the Bishop is, there is Jesus Christ.”

You also know that your Bishop has commanded you to observe November 1 as a Holy Day of Obligation.

Putting those two together, you can see that, in order to remain united with Christ even unto the lions, you should obey your Bishop and go to Mass on November 1.

It’s not actually rocket science, here.

Well sure if we knew for certain Ignatius knew and understood everything and what was meant and had everything interpreted right.

 

[jmcrae]

Well sure if we knew for certain Ignatius knew and had everything interpreted right.

He had spent his whole life, from childhood, at the knees of St. John the Apostle. He was about to be eaten by lions for that - do you really think in his dying words he would be giving advice that he wasn’t quite sure was true?

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt is not a troll. He has posted seriously on serious threads.

Regarding HolyDays, he should have gone. (“Remember to Keep Holy the Lord’s Day” is a command extended to Church-declared days, in addition to Sundays.) However, three things about that:

(1) He seems to be in the majority, not the minority. Do you folks have full churches on HolyDays? Mostly, locally we do not. (I’m in the minority, with the exception of once recently at a parish near my work, not my home. The evening Mass was nearly full, which shocked me actually.) Heck, if it’s “only” one HolyDay he’s missed in the last year, he may be exemplary compared to the majority of more frequent violators who possibly attend no HolyDays, and haven’t for years – or maybe ever.

(2) The small attendance can be the result of generally poor catechesis, or…

(3) A result (depending on the parish) of inconvenient/impossible Mass times on non-Sundays.

It would help if the Church would “put its money where its mouth is,” when it comes to advocating for frequent reception of the sacraments (such as Penance) and faithful HolyDay attendance. Some of us have advocated for this on the L&S subforum. It would have been difficult to an extreme for me to have attended the recent HolyDay I mention, had there not been a parish 7 minutes from my work which happens to offer late-evening Holy Day Masses. (I get off of work late, and have such a long commute that I cannot attend an early morning Mass near home.)

I recognize this is O/T and not an excuse for missing Mass. But let’s not demonize CMatt relative to the rest of the Catholic laity.

Thanks Elizabeth. But being human, and I may fail at times, but I strive to hesitate in any case to exemplifying myself above anyone else. I would then fear perhaps a slippery slope towards pride. You have a kind way of expressing things. God bless you for your gentle spirit. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

The irony is, as someone pointed out, is that cafeteria catholic are the vast majority of the billion catholics in the world. So the real scandal isn’t that CMatt holds the views that he does and remains catholic but rather that a very vocal minority look down thier noses a most of the people who sit next to them in the pews.

I get the feeling that said minority wants a new inquisition to weed out cmatt and Nancy Pelosi so that they can have a purer, and much smaller church.

Thanks for not making me the greatest scandal since Judas. I’m unsure Christ wants His Church to be less open and smaller but I sadly get the same feeling sometimes. Peace.

 

[guanophore]

You seem obsessed about a mass you missed 8 months ago. Maybe your conscience is nagging you.
Has it occurred to you that you might be the man who is messing things about and Jesus is using CAF to correct you?Are you referring to your Baptismal Certificate and your Confirmation? Crossed t’s and i’s with no heart and soul behind them. Pieces of paper.

This is a very astute observation! I think you nailed that one.

I doubt very much it has occurred to him that he is the man, or that God is trying to use CAF to correct him. I think he really believes that his conscience is well formed, even though it does not meet the Church’s definition of a well formed conscience.

Saying “Lord, Lord” but not doing the things that He says.

Pity the person who lost them and still claims to be Catholic.

I feel sure you are talking about the heart here, not the papers?

 

[guanophore]

Hmmm...  Guan, I think I've given some benefits on this thread after you asked.  Not a "few mos" ago.

I have seen nothing on this thread that indicates there are any benefits to calling oneself “Catholic” while rejecting the Catholic faith.

I point out catechism because it says our consciences are deep within us, our most secret core, our sanctuary, where we are with God. And it says we must follow our consciences.

Well, don’t stop reading! The catechism also says that a well formed conscience will be in conformity with all the Teachings of Jesus as they are preserved infallibly in the CC by the HS.

The reason for this is because humans are so prone to error within ourselves. God knows that we need a standard outside of ourselves to measure ourselves.

**

I fully get how we need to inform our consciences of teaching. But then I seem to be told no, that’s not good enough. If still after informing, praying over it, contemplating, praying some more for the Holy Spirit’s guidance, and your conscience still dissents on something, then nope your conscience is not your conscience unless your conscience only acts in accordance with everything we inform it about. I no longer would have my conscience in that case. **

Oh, it is still your conscience! Just as much as you are still baptized and confirmed Catholic. These things don’t change. However, the consience that is not in conformity with the Teachings of Christ may be seared, as with a hot iron, and therefore, does not function correctly. Fortunately, unlike permanent physical scars of this kind, the conscience can be healed and restored.

CMatt25:

Guan, I’m not as schooled in Protestant thought as perhaps you are, but I’ve just always thought they do not necessarily look at it as them improving anything. But instead as Jesus improving His Church. I might be wrong though.

The original Reformers certainly believed they were reforming and improving God’s Church. They did this in response to the corruption they observed in the leadership.Where they missed the mark is thinking that doctrine needed to be “reformed” in addition to the people. People are always in need of reform, but the Teaching of Jesus commmitted infallible to the Church is perfect, and immutable. Those who change it in the belief that they are “improving the church” have left the path of Christ.

I am afterall the first to confess I do not know everything you know about God with the degree of certainty in which you believe you know it. But may He bless you always along your lifelong journey with Him.

You can know all that the Church founded by Christ holds, CM. If you are willing to receive it. It appears that you are not interested. You prefer the first Church of CMatt25, aka Hymenaus community.