Stay Catholic or change religions?

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The irony is, as someone pointed out, is that cafeteria catholic are the vast majority of the billion catholics in the world. So the real scandal isn’t that CMatt holds the views that he does and remains catholic but rather that a very vocal minority look down thier noses a most of the people who sit next to them in the pews.

I get the feeling that said minority wants a new inquisition to weed out cmatt and Nancy Pelosi so that they can have a purer, and much smaller church.

Do you support abortion and homosexual ‘marriage?’

Are you in favor of women ‘priests?’

Do you or do you not obey the Church? This is the heart of the matter; we must obey. We must cling to the truth. Sneering at those who seek to do so is disingenuous at best.

So is the one who mocks the Church with a smile and a hippie symbol.

 

[PRmerger]

But actually this is what had happened to me…
I was also not really Catholic risen (=catechised)…

I appreciate your honesty, Zad. There are many ex-Catholics who use that label as a badge of honor and authority here on the CAFs, as if this gives them more credibility in the untruths regarding the CC they proclaim.

At least you realize that the faith you left behind has very little resemblance to the true Catholic faith.

 

[guanophore]

No it's not yet nagging me about that.

It is good that you are holding out for the possibility that some of the searing may be healed and what is not “yet” will come to be.

But you haven't read my posts that I don't believe we necessarily know everything with 100% absolute certainty when it comes to matters of faith and beliefs?

Yes, this is one of the first things that made me realize that you don’t hold Catholic faith.

We CAN and DO know with 100% accuracy that which God has revealed to the Church. You justify your disobedience by saying this is not true.

 Perhaps though that's another one of those reasons Guan so much asks for.  This is probably my catechized mind chiming in.  But what **if **the CC is correct?  As long as I remain Catholic, I always have Her to reconcile with before my last breath

It is good that you know you need to be reconciled to the Church before you death. It indicates that you really do realize that you are not currently in communion with her.

But, you can still reconcile with her at any point, without misrepresenting yourself and the faith in a public forum. In fact, if you move toward integrity by not presenting yourself as being in unity with the Church when you know you are not, there will be less to reconcile!

I havent lost my papers. Or maybe you’re judgng my soul as lost too.

No, she is judging your actions and expressions, and rightly discerning that they do not reflect Catholic faith.

Ok so if I find myself sitting next to you this weekend after you’ve already either said I’ve lost my papers or my heart and soul, I don’t really know what you meant, but I have my papers so you must have meant I lost my heart and soul, I’ll then presume you take that back and don’t know.

No, it is not right to “take back” the truth. She has rightly stated that, if one’s heart, mind, and soul are not Catholic, God help you! Especially if you publicly represent that you are, when you are not! This causes a public scandal to the Church, as well as endangering the soul.

You won’t allow your adult son to date a Catholic? I would have thought you would be all for it so you could attempt to catechize her more “properly”. Who knows Lapey. Perhaps it is God’s will they date and she comes into your lives.

He did not say that. Obviously, he cannot “disallow” his adult son. He said “objected”. He knows the danger of nominal Catholicism, and being unequally yoked to an unbeliever. Getting mixed up with the Congregation of Hymenaeus is dangerous for all believers.

He also expressed confidence that his son’s catechesis will serve him well in negotiating a relationship with a person who is near to the cliff of no return.

 

[guanophore]

Then why does it say where I go to click on Non-Catholic Religions in the subforums and it sends me here that this is the place for “Comparing and contrasting beliefs”, if it’s only a place to talk about Catholic beliefs? It doesn’t say only Catholic beliefs. Yet all too often when a non Catholic simply mentions their beliefs they right away are accused of prosletyzing when in fact that was not their intent at all. Non Catholics can’t get Catholic answers by asking an Apologist on in the Apologetics forum?

As is your habit, you have lost the forest for the trees. It is a CATHOLIC ANSWERS FORUM. The NC part is to welcome those that are not Catholic to the CAF. The purpose and mission of CAF is to evangelize and catechize, so of course it is primarily to talk about Catholic beliefs. Of course we give Catholic Answers!

Yes, NC can certainly get Catholic answers also in the Apologetics forum. I have always been mystified why sone NC members feel like they are only allowed to post here.

Not in the same sense that CARM is a non-Catholic forum, or christian.net is a non-Catholic forum. This isn’t a place for non-Catholics to proselytize, but rather, a place for non-Catholics to receive Catholic answers to their questions. Not to give out non-Catholic answers to those inquiring.

This is my biggest beef with CM - he purports he is Catholic, but does not have Catholic faith, and gives non-Catholic answers. He adds to the problem by applauding anti-Catholic sentiments and expressions. This is the part that causes the public scandal, and provides a stumbling block for people who are sincerely looking for Catholic Answers.

 

[guanophore]

No, it’s not rocket science. In fact it’s not any kind of science at all. It’s one man’s fallible statement, made centuries ago, extrapolated to the statements of a fallible 21st century man.

As I mentioned, it’s man’s nature to crave power and authority, and what better way to assert it than by atttaching oneself in God’s authority.

Statements made that are in keeping with the infallible teaching of the Church are infallible as well. Peter made an infallible statement to Christ. It was not infallible because Peter was without shortcomings, but because it was absolute truth that came from God. the same is true of Ignatius’ statement. It is the Teaching of the Apostles - part of the Sacred Tradittion.

You are right that it is in man’s nature to crave power and authority. It is also especially dangerous to seek it in a way that attaches oneself to “God’s authority”. However, none of these facts nullify that authority is given to men by God,a nd that it is licit, and that we are obligated to submit ourselves to it. This is especially difficult for a person who has been abused by authority.

 

[guanophore]

Well sure if we knew for certain Ignatius knew and understood everything and what was meant and had everything interpreted right.

You are right, and since you refuse to accept the revelation of God on this point, then you cannot know. It really seems to boil down to the fact that you are unable to trust God - you cannot believe He has actually preserved His Word as He promised.

I strive to hesitate in any case to exemplifying myself above anyone else. I would then fear perhaps a slippery slope towards pride.

If this were true, you would not be exemplifying yourself as a Catholic in this forum when you have rejected Catholic faith. what you are doing is making a public example of hypocrisy, claiming to be someone you are not. I sure wish you would hesitate to do that!

In fact, you are on the slippery slope of pride, because you give more value to what you think is right than what God has revealed to humanity as right.

Then you ice the cake by publicly representing yourself as having accepted God’s standards, when in fact, you do not.

 

[awantz]

Matt,
In hearing you talk and state your beliefs, you sound non-denominational in your beliefs. That is what I am and my husband is Catholic.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Why doesn’t he? This is not Liturgy and Sacraments for instance. This is the non Catholic forum. The original topic before ya’ll turned it over to one on me, was about what the OP should do. CARV simply expresses his belief on a non Catholic forum where we can discuss various beliefs.

Because he appears to be telling us what the Catholic church is and what happens on Sunday. And what the minority want. He is not Catholic so really how would he know. I don’t pretend to tell him how his church is and how the people feel in his church…so I guess we expect the same curtesy. Non-Catholics don’t have the right to tell the faithful how the church should be. Simple as that.

 

[guanophore]

Matt,
In hearing you talk and state your beliefs, you sound non-denominational in your beliefs. That is what I am and my husband is Catholic.

You are right, awantz, except that there is no such a thing as “non-denominational beliefs”. Non-denoms are Protestants, and just dont usually know which denomination in which their beliefs originated. They believe they are “bible christians” and are not aware that their doctrines result from which parts and how much of the Catholic faith they reject.

This is the place for ND’s to post, for sure. The problem with Matt is that he identifies himself as Catholic, and when people read his posts, they can mistake his responses for “catholic answers” when they are not.

 

[CMatt25]

He had spent his whole life, from childhood, at the knees of St. John the Apostle. He was about to be eaten by lions for that - do you really think in his dying words he would be giving advice that he wasn’t quite sure was true?

jm, I wish I knew but I wasn’t there to really say for certain. I can only go by faith and belief.

 

[CMatt25]

This is a very astute observation! I think you nailed that one.
I doubt very much it has occurred to him that he is the man

Guan, of course I know I am a hu-man. That’s one of my pts.

 

[jmcrae]

jm, I wish I knew but I wasn’t there to really say for certain. I can only go by faith and belief.

You might also try reading his books … just sayin’.

 

[CMatt25]

I have seen nothing on this thread that indicates there are any benefits to calling oneself “Catholic” while rejecting the Catholic faith.

the consience that is not in conformity with the Teachings of Christ may be seared, as with a hot iron, and therefore, does not function correctly. Fortunately, unlike permanent physical scars of this kind, the conscience can be healed and restored.

I can’t help that Guan. I don’t know for certain but perhaps, just perhaps, so don’t get all bent out of shape, but then perhaps you haven’t listened all the time quite as well as you sometime believe? I know I have given some reasons for me to remain.

As you believe all the teachings to be. Otherwise it seems one is turning their conscience entirely over to other sinful men. I think it was Ted who described that in a certain way.

 

[CMatt25]

We must cling to the truth. Sneering at those who seek to do so is disingenuous at best.

So is the one who mocks the Church with a smile and a hippie symbol.

CARV has beem disingenuous? What is a hippie symbol? You mean the peace sign? I know they used it a lot.

And I found this one here. Christ and the hippies spoke of love a lot too.

 

[CMatt25]

It is good that you are holding out for the possibility that some of the searing may be healed and what is not “yet” will come to be.

You mean you actually found a reason! So see there’s one unless I’m run out beforehand.

 

[CMatt25]

Matt,
In hearing you talk and state your beliefs, you sound non-denominational in your beliefs. That is what I am and my husband is Catholic.

Awantz, I don’t know. Our Catholic Church of which I have membership used to be at least a bit more open and less bent on purity than it appears headed. I am big on open hearts, open minds, and open doors. I think maybe UMC uses that tagline. Not the kind of open doors though I sometimes see here with attempts to shove ppl out the door. I also can’t rule out that God is still speaking. I think maybe UCC uses it. TEC seems welcoming. A smaller sometimes less known denomination in the US and Canada, DoC, only requires one time Baptism and profession of Christ Lord and Savior. So there are a few I believe exemplifying the open arms of Christ perhaps a bit better that the direction I fear our Church is heading in. Christ once turned over a moneychangers table and I might think that was all He ever did sometimes to hear some of the Catholics here on CAF. But you are right. I also look beyond denominations. As I’m not sure any have or can have everything 100% exactly right. Nor do I say I for certain have everything right.

I’m not even certain some of the beliefs we “argue” over are all that important in His eyes when it is He Whom outweighs any differences. I do believe in one truth. Jesus told us He was the Truth and He shall come again.

God bless you and your husband and peace be with you both as you walk in faith together with Him.

 

[CMatt25]

Because he appears to be telling us what the Catholic church is and what happens on Sunday. And what the minority want. He is not Catholic so really how would he know. I don’t pretend to tell him how his church is and how the people feel in his church…so I guess we expect the same curtesy. Non-Catholics don’t have the right to tell the faithful how the church should be. Simple as that.

Annabelle Marie, but he has experience within the Catholic Church so he’s not completely ignorant. God bless you with a safe and most wonderful weekend. A Happy 4th if you are in the US and to all who are, a Happy Independence Day! Peace.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Annabelle Marie, but he has experience within the Catholic Church so he’s not completely ignorant. God bless you with a safe and most wonderful weekend. A Happy 4th if you are in the US and to all who are, a Happy Independence Day! Peace.

Oh…I could go so many places with that…but I’ll play nice But I assume that one man who has some experience (how much we don’t know) still shouldn’t presume to speak for the Catholic Church. No more than I can diagnose and fix a car because I spent time in a mechanics shop Now I did help my husband change a clutch in our pickup twice…but it does not make me qualified to speak about mechanical stuff. And that is a whole other story… Lets just say I’m glad we did it after we had been married a few years…because otherwise…

Thanks about the 4th…not only in the USA…in the west…in one of the most unchurched states. Getting hot…I’m thankful we are getting an air conditioner in our church in the next 2 weeks!

 

[PRmerger]

jm, I wish I knew but I wasn’t there to really say for certain. I can only go by faith and belief.

Matt, I would allow you your skepticism if you were consistent about your skepticism.

However, I doubt that you apply the same degree of incertitude to all areas of life. For example, do you say, “Well, since I’ve never been to Manila, Philippines I can’t say for certain that they speak Tagalog there.”

or

“Since I’ve never actually been to the moon I’m not certain that we actually can get there.”

Nope, I’m certain that you don’t. You have a confident degree of certitude that these things are true because you trust the sources (teachers, textbooks, magazines, etc) that have told you these things.

You ought to apply the same paradigm to issues of faith.

Viva la Espana! FUTBOL!!! :yyeess:

 

[DebCat129]

Because he appears to be telling us what the Catholic church is and what happens on Sunday. And what the minority want. He is not Catholic so really how would he know. I don’t pretend to tell him how his church is and how the people feel in his church…so I guess we expect the same curtesy. Non-Catholics don’t have the right to tell the faithful how the church should be. Simple as that.

Is it not amazing how those who leave the CC, as a Catholic they complained how they are not being fed, of they know nothing, and once they leave, they are the experts on all things Catholic…or even those who have never been Catholic…because you know…they heard it, from someone who heard it, from someone who heard it, from a fallen away ungrounded non-practicing Catholic…or someone who was never even Catholic.
And the problem here is they are not truly convinced they are in the right place themselves…They are lashing out on us not to convince us…BUT TO CONVINCE THEMSELVES!